Liberal Christianity

[RevRainbow]

Fawzo, I do not see where you are getting the idea that I believe the verse pertains to only Christian believers! We do NOT disagree. You have been misreading my words, confusing the two different texts. Both pertain to ALL. In one, it pertains to ALL who do not acknowledge that God IS and create their own gods (God does not wink) and the other pertains to ALL those who believe there is a God but are ignorant of Truth (so God winks).

The confusion probably comes because I stated that in one verse, Paul is speaking to believers and the other verse he is not. I did not state that he was speaking of, but to them. I pointed this out so that one may see that there is no contradiction between the verses, IMO, when the reason for the apparent difference is explained.

Edited January 17, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

Fawzo, I do not see where you are getting the idea that I believe the verse pertains to only Christian believers! We do NOT disagree. You have been misreading my words, confusing the two different texts. Both pertain to ALL. In one, it pertains to ALL who do not acknowledge that God IS and create their own gods (God does not wink) and the other pertains to ALL those who believe there is a God but are ignorant of Truth (so God winks).

The confusion probably comes because I stated that in one verse, Paul is speaking to believers and the other verse he is not. I did not state that he was speaking of, but to them. I pointed this out so that one may see that there is no contradiction between the verses, IMO, when the reason for the apparent difference is explained.

Ok help me through my fog then. The following statement in Romans is true for everyone including both targeted audiences in the scriptures:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Now both have created idols and worshiped them and have no excuse for not knowing the God of Creation, but because the Greeks in Acts created idols and built an altar to the "unknown" God, they get winked at while the Roman audience who didn't worsip the true God in any manner get the full wrath of God.

This is still quite a strecth to me.

The verse in Romans would mean that the Greeks in Acts still created temples to false Gods with knowledge of the true God and a wink is all they get.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Fawzo

[RevRainbow]

Before I answer, Im gonna go back and carefully read our dialogue again. But not tonight. I'm going to karaoke (no, not at the church).

[nestingwave]

The trouble is, as I see it, no person today can heal people by their faith. Sure many can talk about it but that's where it begins and ends.....

What did the disciples long ago have that you don't? A very different life-style and understanding of what such healing is. You don't believe in it because you have never witnessed or been involved in it. Seeing is believing, as they say. You, and all of us, only have our individual experiences to go by and distant reports of such things. I think the term "heal people by their faith" is completely misunderstood and the present concept is gotten off of Christian tee vee.

Yet, I and many others have both been involved in and witnessed healings take place that most would call "miraculous."

It takes life-energy to repair phsycial cell damage. And genuine spiritual healing is energetic healing. Yes, faith is one of the main elements but the energetic aspects of it must not be ignored as most do when they talk about "faith healing." They assume it is super-natural. It is not. It is not beyond the energetic level in any way. And bodily energy is entirely of the natural Great Creation of which you are a fragment.

Where does such energy come from? It is already all around you all the time in the Universal Intelligent Energy Field. It takes only a proper psycho-pysiological state to tap into it and vector it through your intention. A persons religion has absolutely nothing to do with that. Qi-Gong is a method of energetic healing that is even scientifically proven to work. The Qi-Gong healer energizes his own body from the Universal Energy Field and then transfers it to the patient by the laying on of hands. It is the same way the "laying on of hands" operates in the Christian Religion Religion has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

As I said before, I have had a few of those experiences and seen others healed. Instantly? No... not except in one case but yes very rapidly. The bodily cells repair themselves properly back to their normal state when laying on of hands is done without expectation or doubt.

The most spectacular such healing occurred when I was praying for a girl who was in the ER when she had tried to commit suicide by drinking drano. Somehow, I came into the proper psycho-physiological state, leaped out of my body and went down inside her body and addressed the damaged cells directly demanding that they "obey the Word of God" after reading Isaiah aloud to the dying girl who was a "Christian", in spite of the fact that she had tried to end her own life---she had good rason, by the way, having been sexually abused by her own brother since she was a child. That tends to make a person very depressed indeed and is not something many wish to talk about or confide in another person about. They live in fear and depression. For one thing, they fear the offender because he might murder them----which in this girls case did happened to her a few months after this healing incident.

The next morning she was sitting up in bed and SMILING AND TALKING AND EVEN ABLE TO EAT AND DRINK and the doctors declared that a "miracle" had taken place because she was fully expected to die. The doctors had no idea that I and my wife had prayed for her and we only told them that we had "prayed," and nothing more about the incident.

At the time that happened I had NO IDEA about energetic healing whatsoever. My ideas about "faith healing" were pretty much in line with what the ianity had always told me---a "supernatural" occurrance after petitioning God.

However, years later, I began to discover how this actually works and I discovered through the incredible work of biologist Dr. Bruce Lipton a thing called "cell talk." I have used this technique many times since then to heal both myself and others at various times. Never in any kind of public "prayer-line." However, inducing that proper psycho-physiological state to allow this to happen is very rare when a person is not practicing lots of fasting, continual meditation and prayer and eating a diet which does not include meat. Meat digesting will block the energy flow and requires other elements to compensate for it such as very intense and fervent emotion and intention and even an exteriorization as occurred to me when the suicidal girl was healed--I was not a vegetarian at the time. When I started praying for her, I had no idea whatsoever about popping out of my body and addressing her bodily cells directly. Never heard of such a thing. It was a complete surprise to me. It just happened spontaneously because of the psycho-physiological state I had unknowingly come into. How, exactly, I had no idea but here in 2010 I know a little better how that happens and why.

Does this happen to me on demand? Certainly not. However, once you have such an experience you know beyond the shadow of a doubt why Jesus said, "ye shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." Yep. And, Jesus was very correct in that statement.

Pete, you doubt it simply because you have not experienced it directly and there certiainly is no "lack of faith" in that, only lack of life experience. You were told this was suppose to be a "supernatural" event but it is not. It is an energetic event which becomes ALLOWED because of the healers faith and the faith of the one being healed as well. However, a lack of faith in either one does not stop it from happening when the conditions are right. I have seen plenty of ianty fakers BLAME a person for NOT being healing when they arrogantly commanded God that it should happen. Of course, it was never their own "lack of faith" but the other person needing healing that "lacked faith." What an abomination. What a phoney circus of sick entertainment!

Oral Roberts attempted all sorts of things to make healings happen to the many people who sought after him for it. They sought after him because indeed he did have a gift. He certainly believed it because he had both experienced it happening to himself and also to others that he prayed for----but---he could never tell when it was going to happen and when it wasn't, which was most of the time. He stated that sometimes it would happen spontaneously but often didn't.... but he had little control over WHEN it would happen because, like me, he had no idea of the mechanism as to why it would happen one time and another time would not. It was certaianly not because some God in the sky WITHHELD healing from one person and granted it to the next as the ianty often believes. Almighty God withholds NOTHING.... EVER. If we do not receive it there is some other reason and that doesn't mean it is OUR fault either. I am amazed at how much BLAME comes from the same ones that spout "judge not lest ye be judged." It is disgusting.

Oral even hired some people to come in on crutches and in wheelchairs and with all sorts of fake maladies to appear to be "healed: on cue (theater) thinking it would induce faith in the audience to make their healings happen. And guess what? As phoney as that was..... it sometimes did happen in spite of the fakery to induce faith.

Oral knew that there must be some mechanism involved in order for it to happen and he was trying to induce it some way---not for selfish purposes or profit. He paid one guy $500 to arrive in a wheelchair and be "healed."

In order to become a real healer, one who has a ministry of genuine energetic healing, one must do as Yeshua did. That is, fast.... pray.... meditate.... eat only vegetables... be celibate and keep themselves pure from the world';s pollution, including the world's thought pollution. The purer you are the more likely that you will be able to get in the proper psycho-physiological state to allow energetic healing to occur. And by the way.... although the Qi-Gong healers are not "Christian" this is exactly the life-style they too live in order to have a healing ministry. So, it has absolutely nothing to do with religion and when you do finally actually experience energetic healing you no longer have a problem with believing it and having faith in the Source from whence you came.

And, if you do not want to live such a life-style you can still enjoy your own healing and the occasional healing of others by simply talking the proper way to your bodily cells daily. Such an interface helps you to learn how this life energy is received into your body in the amounts necessary for it to be transferred to another or to your own bodily cells for healing.

namaste

[Fawzo]

Before I answer, Im gonna go back and carefully read our dialogue again. But not tonight. I'm going to karaoke (no, not at the church).

Enjoy yourself. That is what life is for IMHO.

What songs do you enjoy singing most? Karaoke scares me, even the word sends chills down my spine.

[Bro. Hex]

Enjoy yourself. That is what life is for IMHO.

What songs do you enjoy singing most?

Karaoke scares me, even the word sends chills down my spine.

Maybe you are confusing it with "Kamikaze"???

Edited January 18, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Dan56]

So then Dan I assume you are of the belief that God is the only one who can create something that hasn't already existed in his own being completely separate from himself.

Then you must give all credit for the creation of evil squarely to God. No one else could have created something that was non-God unless of course if God were already evil to begin with.

Is the designer or manufacturer of an automobile morally responsible for the drunk driver who runs down and kills an innocent child? Can we attribute evil to God on the basis of our own sinful choices? Our unrighteous acts are contrived of ourselves, they aren't an extension of what God created.. The freedom to choose equates to evil choices.

I have a friend who is Roman Catholic and he informed me some while ago that the verse:- "I solemnly tell you that whatever you as a Church bind on earth will in Heaven be held as bound, and whatever you loose on earth will in Heaven be held to be loosed. Weymouth New Testament" gives authority for the Roman Catholic church to have powers that can affect people both on earth and in heaven. He told me the RC church is seen to be quite literally God's church on earth and other groups and churches are differing religions.

Now I do not wish to debate that here (accept to say I do not agree) but there are differing ways to read the bible and some churches use verses to give themselves authority against all other. One can read Revelations and understand it from a spiritual angle, a church administration, or an extension of Paul's message on salvation. There is huge debate as to whether Revelations was written to be fulfilled and give hope to those suffering persecution in the time of the Roman empire or at some future date and much of how oneinterprates it depends on ones accepted theology.

There is also much debate as to whether John the disciple, John the writer of the gospel, John the writer of the letters and John the author of Revelations were all or not, differing people.

All I would say is that much of the understanding of the bible has been based on giving authority to someone at the expense of another.

Some say the great commission for instance, was just for the disciples at the time, just for his church on earth (i.e. RC or orthrodox) and some say it is for everyone. I expect what a person makes of that would depend upon what church or ideology a person follows.

I don't agree with Catholicism either. The bible (Christ) is the ultimate authority for me, not some churches interpretation or rendition of what means what. I think your friend gave a perfect example of a church changing what's actually written in order to empower the church; "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 18;18). Perhaps the church never read Revelation 22:18? I agree with your basic impression of religion, much of it turns me off too. Revelation is prophesy revealed, because what Christ was showing John was yet to come. The Church is not a specific religion (denomination), but the many membered body of Christ, composed of people everywhere who believe in Him. Its sad that His simple Truth gets misconstrued by the traditions of men. That's why the bible is important to me, it helps me distinguish the Truth from the many ill-conceived doctrines being spewed from so many pulpits

So would you distance yourself from people who preach that Jesus did say they can heal because it only meant the disciples?

Yes... I believe that this authority was given to the Apostles (70) for the purpose of establishing the gospel, just as Moses was given authority (use of miracles) to free the Hebrews from Egypt. In a spiritual sense, our faith in Christ does heal us; 'By his stripes we are healed'. I do believe in a natural sense, that He heals through prayer, He heals through doctors, He heals through medicine and through wholesome living.

[Fawzo]

Is the designer or manufacturer of an automobile morally responsible for the drunk driver who runs down and kills an innocent child? Can we attribute evil to God on the basis of our own sinful choices? Our unrighteous acts are contrived of ourselves, they aren't an extension of what God created.. The freedom to choose equates to evil choices.

Dan the manufacturer of the car did not also design and create the person driving the car. In God's case he designed the automobile and the driver so yes HE IS COMPLICIT AND RESPONSIBLE!!

The car could have been designed where it doesn't even start if the driver is above the legal limit. God also designed the system which creates our tolerance for alcohol.

Yes you can attribute evil to God based on your own sinful choices because he designed the complete system in which you are aware of and can make those choices.

[Pete]

What did the disciples long ago have that you don't? A very different life-style and understanding of what such healing is. You don't believe in it because you have never witnessed or been involved in it. Seeing is believing, as they say. You, and all of us, only have our individual experiences to go by and distant reports of such things. I think the term "heal people by their faith" is completely misunderstood and the present concept is gotten off of Christian tee vee.

I base my opinion on nearly 40yrs of working in the health service. I believe in the placebo affect and auto suggestion (being trained in hypnotherapy, I guess I would say that ) . From what I see of healing is oft the coincidence of the recovery of a person or the giving of permission for a person to become healed.

Coincidence happens and people do recover quickly sometimes with or without pray.

Some people hang onto illnesses that serve them in some way. Sometimes it takes an incidence or an event for them to give themselves permission to recover. Sometimes, the presenting physical illness is caused more by a person's mental/social health than it is an actual physical illness and in this area I do believe spiritual healing has a place. The Body and the mind are related and can affect each other. Spiritual healing and faith can sometimes give the motivation for a person to recover, within the limits of what was possible. I have never seen an amputee spring another leg.

However, the laying hands on people with genuine physical illness and telling them they are now healed, only seems to work in areas were a person was going to recover anyway (in my experience). I have met people who tell me very assuredly that Jesus or something has healed them of things like cancer and when the checks are done, I see the growth and recognise that the illness is just in relapse, only to become a problem again at a later date.

I am not saying that all spiritual healing is bunkum but I would have to personally see the medical evidence for proof. I would not accept the off the cuff remark that some doctor says that a miracle has happened as usually this just means something happened that they were not expecting. That sort of occurrence happens to us all. I may go to work on the bus and find it is often late and one day it turns up on time and I may declare it seems a miracle.

I am not saying I know it all and I am not saying that healing cannot take place. All I am saying is after watching some terrible suffering by people in my life (and I prayed for all), I am sceptical.

Please forgive my doubt here. There is nothing I would like more than to believe it can work but that alone does not in its self make it true according to my personal and painful experience (IMO).

Edited January 18, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

"Bunkum." I like that word!

[Pete]

"Bunkum." I like that word!

I thought I would look it up, as I believed it maybe an English slang term. However, it seems I owe the US for its creation. See:- http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bunkum

I find things like that interesting.

[nestingwave]

....Some people hang onto illnesses that serve them in some way. Sometimes it takes an incidence or an event for them to give themselves permission to recover.

Exactly.

Sometimes, the presenting physical illness is caused more by a person's mental/social health than it is an actual physical illness and in this area I do believe spiritual healing has a place.

Very astute observation.

The Body and the mind are related and can affect each other.

Not only "related" but fully interconnected all the time. Dr. Lipton has proved beyond any shadow of a doubt the full interaction between mind/body and it is continual. Our bodily cells respond directly to our own thoughts and that's what "Cell Talk" is all about.

Spiritual healing and faith can sometimes give the motivation for a person to recover, within the limits of what was possible.

The limitation is only our own belief system as to what is possible. If you believe something is "impossible" indeed it is. Likewise, if you believe something is possible it certainly is. In this way we determine what our "reality" is and what it is not.

I have never seen an amputee spring another leg.

Not yet anyway. Most folks think such things are "impossible" and so they are. However, they are not "impossible" in the Great Creation. Other genetic beings, such as Salamanders do this all the time. We too have that potential within our DNA because all DNA is not only related but interconneted. It only needs to be released through becoming activated. And that occurs through the focus of our belief system. Our thought effects our DNA. Our cognitive minds formulate our belief system. Our belief systems focus our Meissner fields. (human aura)

Lipton found that our DNA responds to EVERYTHING including our own thoughts. DNA is the most pliable physical matter that there is. No other physical matter has such ability to morph in response to whatever is in the environment. The tiniest ripple in the energy field is responded to, such as thought-forms and subtle energetic patterns such as chemicals on a molecular level or EM radiations on a quantum level or scalar waves on a sub-quantum level. Thought energies work at both the quantum and sub-quantum range. They are a bridge between dimensions. They are interdimensional. We are already interdimensional beings focused into a Four Dimensional experiential hologram we call our physical "world."

However, the laying hands on people with genuine physical illness and telling them they are now healed, only seems to work in areas were a person was going to recover anyway (in my experience).

Uh.... how would you really know that?

I have met people who tell me very assuredly that Jesus or something has healed them of things like cancer and when the checks are done, I see the growth and recognise that the illness is just in relapse, only to become a problem again at a later date.

Thse dear folks are highly infected by Christianity Tee Vee. So, what made the illness go into relapse in the first place? What made the cancer come back? Their own thought-forms which in most cases were beyond their control. FEAR will bring the cancer back every time. LOVE heals all.

I am not saying that all spiritual healing is bunkum but I would have to personally see the medical evidence for proof.

My wife has X-rays that show her broken shoulder before and AFTER the cat SET THE BONE. The kitty crawled up on her broken shoulder purred, tapped her to turn over a bit, scunched herself underneath the broken bone, purred louded and my wife felt the bone snap back into place. The bone doctor said he had never in all his 30 years of experience dealing with broken bones seen anyone heal so fast. It was the cats PURR up on her shoulder throughout her recovery that facilitated that healing. And that also is a proven fact. In Europe they even use a mechanical machine that re-produces the sound vibrations of a cat's purr and they are used to help broken bones heal rapidly. Of course, that is outside our materialist/realist scientific paradigm that is called the "Standard Scientific Model."

Most folks have no idea historically how that materialist/realist paradigm came about. It was in the days of Descarte. The Catholic Church said, "OK, we and we alone will handle all spiritual matters but you can look into all things physical." That division between "spiritual" and "physical" produced the materialistic reductionistic scientific paradigm of today. The basic philosophy of reductionism is that you can find out how the Universe and Nature operates by carefully breaking it apart and studying all the component parts of it and then figuring out how they all function together. Totally absurd. The Great Creation is far more than the sum of its component material parts. We are in a very dark age actually. It is called the "Cartesian Split" and, as a civilization, we are still very much emmersed in that error against God, Nature and Reality.

When you understand that healing is an energetic phenomena, then you will get what I am talking about. There is much medical evidence that cannot be explained away by the present materialist/realist scientific paradigm that governs what is called the "Standard Scientific Model." Any doctor will tell you that they have seen things that their knowledge about "science" does not explain and in fact often contradicts their beliefs based upon the science they learned.

I would not accept the off the cuff remark that some doctor says that a miracle has happened as usually this just means something happened that they were not expecting.

Exactly. The experience I described is not my only such experience. But, in that case, the girl herself knew something had happened that shifted things from a rapid plunge into death to life and healing. Perhaps it was the change of her own depressed thought when she heard the scripture from issiah and was then able to receive the energy necessary to heal her damaged cells.

The doctor saying "its a miracle" is only his lack of knowledge about how the mind interconnected with the human body operates. As I said before, energetic healing is in no way a "supernatural" phenomena. To a materialist/realist, a "miracle" is only something that works outside their known science and that they assume is breaking the Laws of Nature but actually is not because the Laws of Nature extend much much further than our present so-called "scientific knowledge."

God is not sitting up in outer space on a golden throne deciding who is worthy of physical healing and who is not---as the ianity often teaches. Some folks know that their life-cycle is over and that they are going to pass. There is nothing anyone can do to stop that. Nor should they. Our cells have a built in program when to begin to shut down. Death is not the end as many folks think due to our long enculturation. Only a new beginning. Our minds are not confined to our physical brain, although our linear thought processing is confined to our physical brains and we find it difficult to imagine anything BUT linear thought processes, however, there is energetic interfacing which is already happening all the time, although we most often do not recognize it because cognitive thought processes demand and hold our attention.

It was unexpected energy that caused her bodily cells to very quickly knitt her burned out esophagus, throat and scorched intestines. To the doctors, something beyond their experience. It wasn't a "supernatural miracle" at all, just the unusual (and in this case very spontaneous) application of energy not often seen and most likely never seen before by those doctors.

That sort of occurrence happens to us all.

Often, those serving others in the middle of a plague never get sick themselves because their focus is on helping those who are afflicted. When Chernoble happened and huge amounts of radiation were released, some of the Russian firemen plunged into the highly radiated areas to offer aid to the dying. They expected to die of radiation poisoning themselves. However, they didn't. Some of them never even got ill. Surprise surprise. Why? Because of their willingness to give their own lives to comfort the dying. Somehow, their selfless thought forms became a physical protection. Who knows if they were "Christians" or not. Probably not, being raised as atheistic communists. But, they put aside their own self-interests out of true compassion for others. That mind-set itself produces abundant life-energy and has no religious qulifications.

The Universal Energy Field is tapped through our thought as biologist Bruce Lipton and many others have now discovered.

I may go to work on the bus and find it is often late and one day it turns up on time and I may declare it seems a miracle.

No one would consider that a "supernatural miracle" including you. That is a poor analogy to use in this case. There are no such "supernatural miracles." All a "miracle" really is, is something our present science cannot explain. But healing that occurs through the laying on of hands and other thought processes, even at a distance, is entirely the natural focus of thought energy.

It can also be used to kill as voodoo black magicians and others with evil intent well know---and some of them are politicians in three piece suits and highly respected in society.

I am not saying I know it all and I am not saying that healing cannot take place. All I am saying is after watching some terrible suffering by people in my life (and I prayed for all), I am sceptical.

Learning to use and properly focus energy is the key, as the Qigong healers tell us. Just asking God to do something supernaturally does not suffice. God says, "why are you asking me to do something you are already well capable of doing yourself?" God never does ANYTHING that one of his servants can do.

Please forgive my doubt here.

All our doubts, fears, beliefs, abilities, understandings come about through our differing human experiences. So, there is no need for me to "forgive" you because you are only operating out of what you know and believe like all of us. There is no need to "forgive" another being for not being "perfect." We are all in kindergarten and very limited beings at this point. That's why we all need to overcome our limitations in order to become more Christlike and better outlets for the Christ within to flow out.

There is nothing I would like more than to believe it can work but that alone does not in its self make it true according to my personal and painful experience (IMO).

All of our experiences are highly limited. Our "beliefs" come about through what we have seen in our own individual experiences. It cannot be otherwise. In my own belief system, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that it "can" happen simply because I have experienced it and more than once. But I also know that there is a tremendous responsibility involved in consciously handling the energy from the Universal Intelligent Energetic Information Field that is everywhere and everyplace in all time and space.

If we suddenly could pray and heal someone, we would have a huge ego-problem.... unless..... we had been living the life-style that Jesus and the disciples lived. Energetic healing requires a giving up of so much that we normally hold "dear" in our life-style that few are willing to make that choice.

It is a choice that emerges out of an inner calling that is according to your individual purpose for being on this earth and the calling of a healer is simply not for everyone. Just because you prayed for people and they died, does not negate the power of prayer at all nor does it say anything at all about healing.

Next time you are in that situation and have a patient dying in pain, try interfacing with them. You may actually feel their agony. Have a conversation between your spirit and theirs. Comfort. Then try sensing the organic problem. Remember all that you know about human anatomy and the trillions of cells that make up our wonderful physical bodies. Talk to the cells directly. Appreciate them. Give them a "high-five." Remind them of what they are suppose to do and ask them to resume their normal function. In the case of cancer you have cells running amok. Remind them that they are not there for their own purposes but to coordinate with that human vessel for the sake of their life's mission and purpose.

Then when you lay your hands upon the patient imagine a very compassionate energy flow from you to them. This may drain you very much if you are not prepared as before stated. However, it is absolutely proven to be effective. How effective it will be depends upon the previous preparation. But, it cannot hurt because your intention is for the highest good of the one suffering.

It has been discovered that the palms of your hands contain neurons that are highly sensitive to magnetic fields. (Dowsing for example has now been proven to be a real phenomena by much scientific study) Your hands can become masers of energy transport. That's why people get so much therapy from properly done body message.

"Father, I give myself to become an open channel of your energy to this suffering person."

Get yourself out of the way. Let go of your expectations and let that life-energy fill you up and let it flow through your hands into the suffering person because of God's love in you for them. Never ever arbitrarily say, "YOU ARE HEALED." That may only be your own analytical speculation. They will not jump up and say, "I'm healed!"---as is so often advertised in the propaganda. But they may at least pass this life with some comfort. And, if that's all that happens, God has touched them through you. Have NO expectations and NO doubts. Or they may completely "recover" as Jesus said. That's not up to you. It may be their desire to depart because their life-cycle is simply over. So be it.

I have seen nurses in hospitals and I'm sure you have too, whose VERY PRESENCE is comfort and healing to the patients. It is really quite remarkable some times. I have seen others who are just the opposite because their energy fields create stress whereever they go. They should not even be involved at all in hospital work.

I used to be a caregiver for developmentally disabled and mentally retarded adults before I retired. Many times I prayed for them. This was before I ever knew anything at all about "cell talk" or the now-proven mind/body interface. I always knew that was true but the scientific evidence for it only came in recently. Yet, I would often lay hands on them and pray and they ALWAYS responded positively.

Just the human touch is comfort! Really good doctors know that well. People are starved for human touch anyway because our sick culture is a "hands off" culture.

Even children are not cared for by human touch the way they were fifty years ago. Today, parents dump them off at a "professional" day-care center where they get nothing but stress and constant control and "correction" to conform to artificial "rules" developed by busy administrators for their OWN benefit.

Any "touching" of the children, can be construed as "sexual" thanks to the HAOWWWLY Roman Catholic Priests who so easily duped people for so long. Don't you dare lay hands on that child lest you be arrested. Paranoia of touching has greatly increased since the exposure of the Pedophile Priests who for centuries were the supposed caregivers of children. Now, even a totally innocent Priest who was never involved in such abomination has trouble with "touching" children.

My, how evil spreads and what incredible damage it can do to the mind and the fact of our interconnectivity with All That Is.

Knowing that Yeshua taught reincarnation, I prayed, meditated and contemplated this belief which is totally outside the culture in which I was And the following is how I view it and what it means to our present life.

Of our five senses, the sense of touch is the most basic. It is a Universal sense that connects you to the entire Universe through your individual energy field. All your other senses proceed from the sense of touch in their specializations.

Even our sense of INTUITION is at root TOUCH because, again, intuition is a sensory energetic phenomena.

Touch is the first sense we experience in the womb and the last sense we are cognitively aware of as we die. It is the sense that we have after death but is no longer specialized into separate components and no longer filtered through a mental process, since the brain is no more. It is an at-one-ment with the comfort of belonging. But then the soul starts to recollect the memory of its recent experiences and reviews them in the light of the All One.

And the future experience is developed according to the souls needed lessons to become fully cognizant of the All One continually.--so, a new physical material hologram is created in linear time for the individual soul to move through those experiences So there is a magnetic attraction to those exact "lessons" and a new physical incarnation begins. That is the evolutionary growth process that all human beings on planet earth are involved in.

The world we see around us and assume is "reality" is a projected hologram. To each one of us it is slightly or greatly different. It is a play of energy created by our souls individual need and focused intention to merge with the All One. In this sense we are all parallel Universes which sometimes overlap but more often remain completely separate throughout our entire lifetime. We only hear about other concepts, places and lives from afar but only interact with a tiny tiny portion of them within the realm of our own life experience which is the perfect life experience for our individual growth.

We are all on our own individual holodec and what we see and experience is a holographic projection customized to our individual need. Yes, many of those are similar but no two are exactly the same. The number of such projected holographic "worlds" is infinite and not all of them are like this one. It depends upon where we are in our souls overcoming and becoming. Right now, we can envision a world free of the present dysfunctions and so we are already beginning to project our new experience. When we focus on peace on earth and good will toward men, that's the hologram we project. When enough people focus on that transformation takes place even before physical death. If physical death occurs before that our present vision will be realized in our next incarnation. We are always born into the exact environemt we ourselves created by our projected though-forms during a lifetime. If we dwell on negativity, that's what we get. If we dwell on an uplifted civilization, that's what we get. It is all up to us and how much we recognize our own responsiblity for our own situation whatever it is. And... personal responsibility is another item that the ianity removed from the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why? Because they wanted people totally subservient and dependent upon them and them only. A very Roman mind-set. That is a Control Paradigm. However, we can just say "no" and create something else which will manifest either in this life or the next. We get whatever we call upon from the core depths of our heart. Anyone who calls upon the Name of the Lord will be "saved." Saved from what? Saved from self-inflicted suffering. Save to what? Their "VISION." And without a "vision" the people run wild (perish.)

In this way we slowly begin to take responsibility for our own incarnations until we can finally choose either to merge with the All One or come back to help our fellow struggling beings do likewise. And that is what Jesus did and what the Buddhists call a Bodhisatva. And that is the genuine unconditional Love of God fully manifested and fully touchable. The Christ.

namaste

[Dan56]

Dan the manufacturer of the car did not also design and create the person driving the car. In God's case he designed the automobile and the driver so yes HE IS COMPLICIT AND RESPONSIBLE!!

The car could have been designed where it doesn't even start if the driver is above the legal limit. God also designed the system which creates our tolerance for alcohol.

Yes you can attribute evil to God based on your own sinful choices because he designed the complete system in which you are aware of and can make those choices.

Well, we can blame God for creating the evil things which we choose to do, but do you think that song & dance will fly with God come judgment day? Everything God created was good, God didn't create evil, but he will destroy it.

[Verisoph]

Well, we can blame God for creating the evil things which we choose to do, but do you think that song & dance will fly with God come judgment day? Everything God created was good, God didn't create evil, but he will destroy it.

By golly, that'll teach everyone who doesn't believe what you believe.

[Fawzo]

Well, we can blame God for creating the evil things which we choose to do, but do you think that song & dance will fly with God come judgment day? Everything God created was good, God didn't create evil, but he will destroy it.

Meanwhile Dan watch the news with what is happening with the people of Haiti and multiply that by Gawdzillion times and think of all the evil and suffering he has allowed since the earth was formed and you want to ask him why he stood by so long watching with his 3-D glasses and eating popcorn.

[Pete]

namaste

I guess it comes down to research. Can a person demonstrate that a person who has had hands laid upon them stands more chance of recovery?

Is any recovery rate different from the norm? Can such events be reproduced as evidence?

Failing that it comes down to something you believe and I have seen no real evidence for.

However, the cat purring and that's affect on healing has been demonstrated according to a UK newspaper, but then it is down to the vibration. There is no scientific proof that any such vibration is exchange through people laying on of hands and therefore I suggest we are talking about some different.

Like I say, I am not saying it is rubbish and beliefs are not important in healing but I am saying that there is a lack of demonstratable evidence for the laying on of hands and what there is, is anecdotal . If it where not so then every hospital in the world would have someone come around and do this.

Each Hospital wants to save money as treatments are expensive. The laying on of hands would be a very cheap option if it was affective and yet, no hospital I know in the UK or US does this as standard treatment.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Pete

[Bro. Hex]

Well, we can blame God for creating the evil things which we choose to do, but do you think that song & dance will fly with God come judgment day? Everything God created was good, God didn't create evil, but he will destroy it.

.

But we Liberal Christians don't necessarily believe in Judgment Day.

Every day is another judgment day.

Every day we make our choices.

Our "judgments".

[Brother Michael Sky]

Meanwhile Dan watch the news with what is happening with the people of Haiti and multiply that by Gawdzillion times and think of all the evil and suffering he has allowed since the earth was formed and you want to ask him why he stood by so long watching with his 3-D glasses and eating popcorn.

well Fawzo, that answers itself..... 3-D glasses.... when have you ever seen a pair, and not put them on to see if they really work?

I guess it comes down to research. Can a person demonstrate that a person who has had hands laid upon them stands more chance of recovery?

actually yes.... if you have a genuine question, there is a reason Reiki practitioners are starting to be found in hospitals..... the studies allow them to be there, because of the positive differences noted.... very striking effects at times too....

[RevRainbow]

well Fawzo, that answers itself..... 3-D glasses.... when have you ever seen a pair, and not put them on to see if they really work?

Ask Fr. Corey, he knows!

[nestingwave]

I guess it comes down to research. Can a person demonstrate that a person who has had hands laid upon them stands more chance of recovery?

Is any recovery rate different from the norm? Can such events be reproduced as evidence?

Failing that it comes down to something you believe and I have seen no real evidence for.

However, the cat purring and that's affect on healing has been demonstrated according to a UK newspaper, but then it is down to the vibration. There is no scientific proof that any such vibration is exchange through people laying on of hands and therefore I suggest we are talking about some different.

Like I say, I am not saying it is rubbish and beliefs are not important in healing but I am saying that there is a lack of demonstratable evidence for the laying on of hands and what there is, is anecdotal . If it where not so then every hospital in the world would have someone come around and do this.

Each Hospital wants to save money as treatments are expensive. The laying on of hands would be a very cheap option if it was affective and yet, no hospital I know in the UK or US does this as standard treatment.

As brother Sky just pointed out, Reiki healers are now even accepted in some hospitals. Why? Because there is demonstratible evidence that energetic healing works.

Like Einstein said, "there is no such thing as matter---all is energy." Matter is just energy spinning in different configurations.

You have not yet realized that thought is a vibration also. Your biology vibrates continually. All energy is a vibration. The entire Universe vibrates. Oh yes it does. And you are totally wrong about there being no "demonstratable" evidence. True, it is not accepted by the materialist/realist paradigm under which most of us were miseducated.

You simply have not seen it because your belief system is clouded by that materialist/realist education. However, that is what you know and thus your belief system and its skepticism. And, that's perfectly okay. I am not here to "convince" you of anything, only to share my own experience. Take it or leave it. Whether you believe that the laying on of hands avails anything or not, does not matter in the least, only not being open to such a possibility highly limits a persons perspective. The fact that Jesus Christ said it should give you an inkling that something might be there, even if it goes against the materialist/realist thinking with which we were all enculcated in our present world paradigm.

Yet, the laying on of hands will continue because many know, as I do, that it is effective beyond any shadow of a doubt just as Jesus Christ himself said and often demonstrated also, being a well recognized energetic healer in a previous culture which did not reject such things. Yes, Jesus was very accurate on that point.

And it is very clear precisely how it is done, how and why it works and it is open to all, not just him and the many others throughout history who have practiced it, such as the Qigong Masters whose abilities have now been verified by western science as have many of the Shamans in South America who know very well how to use energy in various ways for healing and that is no secret nor difficult to find out about.

So, yes, it is my belief system but not just an opinion out of my own supposition nor something that I only read in a book somewhere but have direct experience with. And whether you believe what I say or not also does not matter in the least because anyone can verify it for themselves if they are open to the possibility. And, if they are not, so be it.

namaste

Edited January 19, 2010 by nestingwave