Liberal Christianity

[Dan56]

Sorry Dan but I do not see that. See:-

John 14:12-14 (New International Version)

¹²I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these,

My mistake....... I was responding to the statement you made saying, "As for understanding, I do not see people getting healed in large numbers by any church (no matter what their faith) and this despite Jesus reported to have said they would do this and more." I thought you were referring to Matthew 10;1 where Jesus gave the disciples the power to heal. Miracles of healing weren't mentioned in John 14;12-14.

[Dan56]

It is true God is our Creator Source. However, we are co-creators and have something called free-will.

I don't believe that we are co-creators, at least I don't recall creating anything.

Ignorance is what leads to disobdience.

I don't believe that's possible? If your ignorant of something, your unaware, uninformed, and lack knowledge of it. How can a person be disobedient to what is unknown to them?

You seem to be saying that just because they were "ignorant" they weren't responsible for crucifying and mocking the Christ.

Not at all..... the fact that Jesus asked the Father to forgive them is evidence that they were responsible for what they did, but mercy was sought because they knew not what they did.

The idea that our sins crucified Jesus is absurd. If you had been there or I had been there we would not have grabbed him and put him on the cross.

I didn't mean that we physically crucified Jesus. We are all ignorant and guilty of sin, we are guilty of sin even when we aren't ignorant. The crucifixion was for our transgressions, so unless a person has never sinned, Christ crucified was caused by everyone, and for everyone that commits sin.

But not blindly accepting the falsely so-called "teachings of Jesus" given to you by the Roman control paradigm.

Your obviously convinced that the bible was altered for Roman control, but I believe God preserved his Word. So its highly unlikely that we will have any meeting-of-the-minds since you dismiss the texts that I hold sacred. I don't think God would sacrifice his only begotten son only to allow the Living Word to be contaminated later.

[Pete]

My mistake....... I was responding to the statement you made saying, "As for understanding, I do not see people getting healed in large numbers by any church (no matter what their faith) and this despite Jesus reported to have said they would do this and more." I thought you were referring to Matthew 10;1 where Jesus gave the disciples the power to heal. Miracles of healing weren't mentioned in John 14;12-14.

¹²I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these,

I contest that Dan. It says that those with faith would do what he has been doing. So your saying that Jesus did not mean miracles, healing the sick and rising from the dead after crucifixion. If it just meant preaching and talking to God then I am sorry but the Jews and others had a head start on this.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also about Bible inerrancy:-

According to an article in Theology Today published in 1975, "There have been long periods in the history of the church when biblical inerrancy has not been a critical question. It has in fact been noted that only in the last two centuries can we legitimately speak of a formal doctrine of inerrancy. The arguments pro and con have filled many books, and almost anyone can join in the debate."

^{http://en.wikipedia....lical_inerrancy}

^{There is also much debate on whether the bible is inerrant or not and this has been going on for some while. Whilst I may believe that the bible is not inerrant, that is not the same as saying that the bible is not inspired. Inspired I can accept. Inerrant I cannot.}

http://www.religious...g/ine_none1.htm

http://www.religious...g/ine_none3.htm

Edited January 16, 2010 by Pete

[nestingwave]

I am truly curious, Nestingwave,

Which "original Aramaic writing" are you referring to in the above quote?

These "95 Theses" of Martin Luther were, of course, originally written "in German".

Are you suggesting that the 95 Theses were actually written "by someone else, in an earlier age"?

Do you suggest that Luther simply translated from the Aramaic into the German language, the words of some other author?

Can you identify the "original source"?

Can you identify the "original (Aramaic) author"?

Yes.

The Gospel of The Holy Twleve

And here is a whole collection of many ancient texts.

The Nazarene Way

namaste

Edited January 16, 2010 by nestingwave

[RevRainbow]

In truth, there is only danger in rejecting the Bible if the Bible has value that cannot be found elsewhere. Many who reject the bible go on to embrace non-Biblical faiths. Do you mean to say that non-Biblical faiths have less value than Biblical faiths and are, as you put it, "truth of our own devices" "with no foundation other than ego"? I don't think it is whatyou mean to say, but i see little room for your words here to mean anything else.

"Many who have been "turned off" by various preachers, teachers and churches, have begun a crusade against the God of the Bible by trashing the scriptures. It is not fair to blame God or those who diligently seek Him through the Bible. Just as there are dangers in elevating the Bible to the ultimate truth, there are the dangers of disregarding it also.

It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices.

You say the Bible is a mess. No, it is not. It is the Word of God, but many have made a mess out of it. Before I go further, I accept that what you say above and what I say are our opinions only, it is our pride that presents our statements as fact. These may be considered our beliefs, but our beliefs are based on what very little we actually know spiritually."

I am not saying that other faiths or religions have more or less value. I am referencing those who call themselves Christian and, for some reason, what they once held as holy have turned and now attack the bible -not just portions- but all as uninspired. This could also be true of any religion whose disciple ultimately rejects the sacred writings. The point is, rather than just dismissing and, as you say, embrace another faith, the individuals continue to trash the scriptures while setting themselves up as a spiritual teacher/authority within the realm of Christianity.

I was generalizing about a specific situation in the paragraph you quoted which was preceded and followed by what I feel puts it into a different context than what you understood it to be. The most extreme cases I can think of similar to what I was describing would be Jim Jones and David Korash.

Edited January 16, 2010 by RevRainbow

[nestingwave]

I don't believe that we are co-creators, at least I don't recall creating anything.

Have any children? Ever play music? Ever invent something? Ever write a peom? Ever start a business? So, if you don't recall creating anything you may be in the first stages of Alzheimers. It might be a good idea to see your phycisian right away. We will have that disease licked soon and there are already new methods of restoring your memory. I will pray for you.

I don't believe that's possible? If your ignorant of something, your unaware, uninformed, and lack knowledge of it. How can a person be disobedient to what is unknown to them?

By not understanding the Law of Cause and Effect and thinking there are no consequences for their actions. Ignorance. But, as the Bible clearly tells you "ignorance is NO excuse."

Not at all..... the fact that Jesus asked the Father to forgive them is evidence that they were responsible for what they did, but mercy was sought because they knew not what they did.

Yes. However, if they continue crucifying people, do not repent, do not make amends, then they learned nothing from the "mercy" and will have some severe consequences. Mercy does not aleviate one from the responsibility to repent and amend their ways, it only mitigates a bad situation giving you space to repent and make amends.

I didn't mean that we physically crucified Jesus. We are all ignorant and guilty of sin, we are guilty of sin even when we aren't ignorant. The crucifixion was for our transgressions, so unless a person has never sinned, Christ crucified was caused by everyone, and for everyone that commits sin

Not for your individual sins. Your individual sins cannot be done away with by the blood of man or beast. You must repent and make amends. You must forgive others. The blood of Jesus does not lift that requirement as today's ianity insists. The consequences are not burning in eternal fire forever.

The consequences are the rebounding effect of the Universal Law of Cause and Effect. And it is equitable not unjust draconianism. "As you sow so shall you reap."

Your view of hell-fire came directly from Rome not God. And yes, your Greek scriptures were highly manipulated in that respect.

There IS a hell. People are ALREADY there. It is the consequence of their own thinking. There IS a heaven. People are already there. It is the consequence of their own thinking. YOU choose either way. And this is the true meaning of heaven and hell in the OT and in the New.

You see, brother Dan, WE are responsible for what we create. Every action you preform is a creation.

This is a basic teaching of Jesus that your "Holy" Roman Fathers obfuscated in their didactions, redactions and editings. Why? Because they only wanted you dependent upon THEM and their Hierarchy of control. Totalitarian control. Control over your body, mind and soul. Anti-Christ. Still here today. The United States of America is the Roman Empire and its outcome will be the same as the Roman Empire and for the same reason.

All this fraudulent religiousity is Babylon and it will burn right along with the criminal banking system, the Military/Industirial Complex and the Politicians who serve only their $$$ masters.

You cannot serve God and Mammon. The Bible that you wrongly say I "dismiss" happens to be very clear about that. And yes, that is in the original gospel. Those Roman Fathers and all those who bought their poisonous good are in Babylon and don't know it Come out my people, says the Lord. But it is not easy because people have been inculcated with a false gospel for so many thousands of years. The Bible calls that "the vain traditions of the fathers." Exactly. Right on. No I do not "dismiss" that but many do. In fact, many dismiss the Bible thinking it is "inerrant." How absurd to think any document written by the hand of man is "inerrant. NONE is inerrant. That's why you have the inner Spirit and the Law of Almighty God written upon your heart.

So, you can either seek with all your heart, mind and soul and find Christ within you, or you can accept what the faulty merchandise that the manipulators sold by means of threats, violence, book burnings, pogroms, inquisitions, editings, false interpretations and all manner of power trips.

It is and always will be YOUR choice. You and only you are responsible for your own actions (creations.)

As I clearly told you before and will say once again hoping you get it, of course, Almighty God protects His/Her OWN WORD. And that's why the Roman Fathers in their criminality only partially succeeded in capturing the minds, souls and bodies of the ones who allowed themselves to be duped by simply accepting whatever they were told by those sself-styled "authority figures" who threatened them.

Authority that DEMANDS respect is false authority. Authority is ALWAYS to be questioned. ALWAYS. Even Almighty God makes no such "demands." Almighty God is NOT like the Roman Emporer as your "Holy" Fathers assumed thinking that Rome was the seed of the Kingdom of God on the earth.

Almighty God WANTS you to question and not just accept something because some man-made authority figure told you so. Authority is no authority that demands respect. And that is even true of Almighty God who does not demand anything but only IS. PURE BEING. I AM THAT I AM. ALL BEING.

Almigty God is NOT a God of force as is falsely advertised. God is a God of power to love and transform.

If you think Almighty God is dangling you over a pit of eternal fire, you are brain-washed by the hands of evil men. If you perish it is YOUR CHOICE. God does not wish ANY man to perish. Oh yes, that is in that book that you so lightly say I "dismiss." And Almighty God, unlike several men in recent history does not delight in torture, murder and deception as your "Holy" Roman Fathers did with glee.

Look up what the word "holy" means. It means WHOLE which is exactly what Jesus prayed for in John 17, the most "gnostic" and misunderstood chapter in the entire Bible.

When it comes right down to it, brother Dan, you and I choose who will we serve. Either Almighty God---or our own ego-personality with all its perishing baggage. And if we cling to that baggage in spite of so many opportunities to let go and let God, we will burn with it. But not in eternal hell-fire but in the bon fire we ourselves lit in our ignorance. But even that burning is not the eternal end, only a necessity to repeat kindergarten.

The entire Universe is cyclic.

True spiritual authority does NOT demand respect.... but earns it through its own doings. That is the only true "authority."

Now... I know you agree with much I have said here. However, as long as you interpret it through the lens of the Roman Fathers that brain-washed so many millions of folks for thousands of years, you will miss it.

Your obviously convinced that the bible was altered for Roman control,

Not only I. Historically it is proven and I suggest you inform yourself. That is entirely up to you. Put "deceptions of the early church fathers" into your browser. Get both the "pros" and the "cons" and then come to your own conclusion. But don't stop seeking there. READ the earliest manuscripts before Rome did their manipulations! See what they changed and why. It is clear what they changed and what they did not change.

but I believe God preserved his Word.

Yes, I do too, in spite of all that the Roman Hierarchy tried to achieve. They were not able to burn all the original writings. But they tried. They wanted to cover-up their manipulations. They even ADMITTED it in their OWN WRITINGS (better find out) that they used "deception" as a MEDICINE and that they invented a history that was in the interest of the Roman religion that they invented. IN THEIR OWN WRITINGS. Get that? But, the history of the Church's bloody inquisitions and burning of people at the stake for having different ideas should tell you right away that they were as far from Jesus Christ as one can get. And they were the ones who gave you your Bible of today. Duhhh?

So its highly unlikely that we will have any meeting-of-the-minds since you dismiss the texts that I hold sacred.

I have studied that text, enjoyed it, prayed it, meditated on it, danced it, sang it and rejoiced in it for many many years. Every post I write is full of that book. It is my life and breath.

But in all this focus I found out that it was in no way inerrant and that no religious text on earth is inerrant. Yeshua himself said so.

It is very unfair for you to say I "dismiss" the texts that you hold sacred. I know what they are and some of them are the Roman deception. What I dismiss are the manipulations of that text which happened several hundred years after the advent. Anyone who really desires to know the truth of that can inform themselves, however most folks would rather not because it might upset their belief system.

It is not the Bible you hold sacred at all. If you did you would find out where it came from. No, it is not the Bible you hold sacred. It is your belief system. So, fine.

I don't think God would sacrifice his only begotten son only to allow the Living Word to be contaminated later.

God is not a man with a beard up in the sky. If you experience hell it is because YOU created it. If you experience heaven, the same. And God does not perform human sacrifices. The meaning of Christ's redeeming of the world on the cross is very clear from the original texts and that is one of the main manipulations of the Roman Fathers. They wanted a "religion" that the Pagans could understand. Human sacrifice is one of those items. But the reality is---you still have to repent and make amendments for your sins. I explained that a few posts back.

In closing I ask this question. Why would Almighty God allow this deception?

The answer is quite simple: so that you and I would seek with all our hearts. minds and souls and not settle for the doctrines and dogmas of men.

Without the Great Deception we would never focus our entire being to know the Truth that sets men free. It is the chrysalis that produces the butterfly. Absolutely necessary for transformation.

So, thank you Holy Roman Fathers for your lies and deceptions which you called in your own writings a "medicine." Indeed it was. hmmm.... it was all in God's Holy Intention anyway. Now that's really earning my deepest respect for Almighty God. What man could ever think of such an ingenious plan?

namaste

Edited January 16, 2010 by nestingwave

[nestingwave]

"Many who have been "turned off" by various preachers, teachers and churches, have begun a crusade against the God of the Bible by trashing the scriptures. It is not fair to blame God or those who diligently seek Him through the Bible. Just as there are dangers in elevating the Bible to the ultimate truth, there are the dangers of disregarding it also.

It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices.

You say the Bible is a mess. No, it is not. It is the Word of God, but many have made a mess out of it. Before I go further, I accept that what you say above and what I say are our opinions only, it is our pride that presents our statements as fact. These may be considered our beliefs, but our beliefs are based on what very little we actually know spiritually."

I am not saying that other faiths or religions have more or less value. I am referencing those who call themselves Christian and, for some reason, what they once held as holy have turned and now attack the bible -not just portions- but all as uninspired. This could also be true of any religion whose disciple ultimately rejects the sacred writings. The point is, rather than just dismissing and, as you say, embrace another faith, the individuals continue to trash the scriptures while setting themselves up as a spiritual teacher/authority within the realm of Christianity.

I was generalizing about a specific situation in the paragraph you quoted which was preceded and followed by what I feel puts it into a different context than what you understood it to be. The most extreme cases I can think of similar to what I was describing would be Jim Jones and David Koresh.

This is a wonderful post Rainbow. Thank you. You communicated very well here and I thoroughly agree. Both Jim Jones and Daivd Koresh, by the way, were CIA mind-control experiments. The CIA was trying to find out how to manipulate people's belief systems---at the expense of other human beings, just like the ones who originally manipulated the Bible.

I have done research on both Jim Jones and David Koresh. They were highly manipulated. Mind-control is what draconian governments want. Cuts down on civil unrest when folks are being herded into a cage.

They experiment with individuals to see how they can eventually manipulate whole populations for their control agendas.

But.... it only works when a person does not raise question to the manufactured "authority figure." Thus, cultic behavior is created.

"Follow me... kill yourself."

Our Military/Industrial Complex would like to produce Manchurian Candidate type killers that will kill on demand with a phone call that puts them into a dissociated personality. So, they experimented with something called Monarch Mind-Control. This is TRAUMA based mind-control that tortures folks in order to cause them to "dissociate." That produces separated personalites which may not even know that each other exist. So, they don't even remember what they did afterwards. The theory is that political assasins cannot blow the whistle because their alternate personality did the killing and they don't even remember it.

Sirhan Sirhan, who murdered Robert Kennedy, was one of those and many others were also.

The CIA has been up many times before Congressional Investigation Committees for their nefarious activities in mind-control experimentation, and of course, nothing ever happens because our Congress cannot go up against the powerful Military/Industrial/Congressional/Economic Complex that President Eisenhower, in his last speech to the nation, warned us about so long ago---which was, of course, totally ignored.

Usually the CIA before these investigation committees promises to "never do it again"----and so business as usual continues unabated. The "slap on the wrist" doesn't slow them down one bit. And, of course, the Congressional Investigation Committee is fully controlled by the same powers-that-be ordering the mind-control experiments and their implementations in the first place.

The "investigations" only occur because there are leaks that this is happening and they wish to appear as if they object and wish to stop it. hahahah.

The Nazi CIA experimenters have a mind-control devise that can project a voice right into your head making you think Almighty God is talking to you and that's what they used both on Jim Jones and also David Koresh.

Those two already had huge egos wanting to have followers under their control, so the mind-control programming simply used and enhanced their own egotistical tendancies, to see how far they could be stretched. Pretty far, I'd say.

Their followers were exactly like the followers of all control based religions. Blind obedience. One of those earlier Nazi CIA experimenters was Dr. Euwin Cameron who did mind-control experiments on his unwitting "mental" patients. And, get this, Dr. Euwin Cameron was once the HEAD of the American Psychiactric Association.

Another Nazi, Dr. Jose Delgado. He did experiments in mind-control by putting implants into his patients without their knowledge.

He once demonstrated his ability to electronically control another being in his famous experiment with a wild bull. He put an implant in the wild bulls brain and whenever the bull started to charge he would change the bulls mind by remote control.

Frightening to some folks indeed. But, of course, our wonderul government would never allow such a thing... would they?

However, all forms of mind-control only work with a persons abdication over to some "authority figure" allowing their hypnogogic techniques, whether it is electronic or simple persuasion, or truama based personality splitting, to take hold.

Mind-control today NEEDS NO IMPLANT but can be done with induced scalar waves. Invisible Warfare. You not only never know what hit you but never had the slightest clue it was coming.

Militarist LOVE that.

America has already come under attack by this more than any other nation on earth. And it was all done by our OWN CIA in alignment with all the other three letter intelligence agencies serving those Oligarchs who wish to have a world-wide totalitarian system.

This, of course is connected with our criminal financial system, so Financial Reform and doing completely away with those robbing us through debt, is a first step in getting out from under this bondage. We know how to accomplish that but our government is fully controlled as others are now slowly discovering as their money is stolen from them in broad daylight and disappears without accountability---never to be seen again. Pooof.''

David Rockefeller said, "we have always wanted a world government but had to keep it secret until all the factors were in place. However, now all those factors are in place and we will no longer have to maintain the secrecy." And that is almost a perfect direct quote. Of course, that was a private interview with David Rockefeller and never never ever reported on CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, PBC etc because guess who owns them?

There are actually some despots in this world who would like to see whole populations zombified into obedience. In fact.... uh.... take a good look around you.

People are already so used to blindly abdicating their wills over to supposed "authority figures," whether they be religious authority figures or political ones, that it makes the job of totalitarian mind-control very easy. The somnabulized population does most of the work for them. As long as they have a pay-check, a ballgame and a beer, all is well.

In Korea the Chinese used mind-control on our captured soldiers and all the intelligence agencies are very much into using it ever since. Why? Because is it very effective. Invisible Warfare. Why should the Chinese and the Russian have an exclusive franchise on it?

And, of course, that is why the outward events taking place in our dysfunctional civlization often seem so utterly insane.

They are.

This is presently a Prison Planet... but that is about to end forever as every secret is loudly shouted from every rooftop and a very great awakening occurs.

And it already is. But, it is not instant but little by little.

So, there is no reason to fear or despair. Just question whatever comes out of your Nazi government and be aware.

The spiritual decendants of Dr. Mengele, and their stooges and dupes, can only exist in total darkness. Once the light is shined upon them---- game over. They can only be successful as long as they remain in secret---like the Wizard of Oz, who is actually a little weak and insecure man behind a curtain pulling the levers on a huge Mechanical Boogyman to produce manipulating fear via theater.

This whole mind-control, which is a viral thought-meme, contains within itself the seeds of its own suicidal destruction because it is totally contrary to Almighty God and the way the Great Creation works.

In their greed and arrogance, the manipulating controllers have only deceived themselves while thinking they would be able to deceive the whole world. Nope. At this point in linear time America is the most deceived nation on earth because she is the only thing standing in the way of this tyranny. So, the agenda is to bring down America totally.

But her people need to wake up to what is and has been going on for a long time.

The CIA created "super-soldiers" which through mind-control were trained to kill but some of them are now blowing the whistle, having been so abused and used. Few know about this because they didn't hear it on CNN. And, there are many others who stick their heads in the sand not wanting to know because it is just too frightening to them. However, it must be faced head on and dealt with.

The light is always better than the darkness, even if it shines on some things that are not too pleasant. <==and this, of course, is exactly parallel to all we have been discussing on this thread. All these things are totally interconnected. Yes indeed they are.

Duncan O'Finian

namaste

[Pete]

"Many who have been "turned off" by various preachers, teachers and churches, have begun a crusade against the God of the Bible by trashing the scriptures. It is not fair to blame God or those who diligently seek Him through the Bible. Just as there are dangers in elevating the Bible to the ultimate truth, there are the dangers of disregarding it also.

It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices.

You say the Bible is a mess. No, it is not. It is the Word of God, but many have made a mess out of it. Before I go further, I accept that what you say above and what I say are our opinions only, it is our pride that presents our statements as fact. These may be considered our beliefs, but our beliefs are based on what very little we actually know spiritually."

I am not saying that other faiths or religions have more or less value. I am referencing those who call themselves Christian and, for some reason, what they once held as holy have turned and now attack the bible -not just portions- but all as uninspired. This could also be true of any religion whose disciple ultimately rejects the sacred writings. The point is, rather than just dismissing and, as you say, embrace another faith, the individuals continue to trash the scriptures while setting themselves up as a spiritual teacher/authority within the realm of Christianity.

I was generalizing about a specific situation in the paragraph you quoted which was preceded and followed by what I feel puts it into a different context than what you understood it to be. The most extreme cases I can think of similar to what I was describing would be Jim Jones and David Korash.

I do not believe any crusade is being made on the God of the bible. I would make a distinction between many of the descriptions from the bible of God and that of God. The bible is inspired (IMO) and may display an image of God but it is a cracked image (IMO). I believe in God and pray often throughout each day and one of the reasons that many who challenge the bibles image of God and still refer to themselves as a Christian is because they believe Jesus did make known the true image of God. It is Jesus that displays that image of a loving God, as God worked through him. The bible is just a human report based on reports the authors of the NT have heard from others. I am saying that it is not God I challenge or Jesus. It is the idea that the bible is infallible and makes God sound unfair and unloving (something I just do not believe). I may have a respect for other faiths as they discover God in their journeys but please make no mistake, I am not about to change mine and I do not believe many of the liberal preachers are going to change theirs. I am a Christian and I do not need yours or anyone else's validation of that. I may not believe the bible is inerrant but that for me does not signify whether someone is a Christian or not in my eyes.

As I pointed out in my original post, there are some terrible laws that God is supposed to have been the author of through Moses, and I just do not believe that God actually was.

Contrast the love of Jesus and him crucified as a symbol of God's love for everyone and that of God in the OT that wanted to drown everyone in the days of Noah and I find it leaves an incredible paradox (IMO).

Edited January 16, 2010 by Pete

[Youch]

I am not saying that other faiths or religions have more or less value. I am referencing those who call themselves Christian and, for some reason, what they once held as holy have turned and now attack the bible -not just portions- but all as uninspired. This could also be true of any religion whose disciple ultimately rejects the sacred writings. The point is, rather than just dismissing and, as you say, embrace another faith, the individuals continue to trash the scriptures while setting themselves up as a spiritual teacher/authority within the realm of Christianity.

Exactly!

[RevRainbow]

Pete, I have always had a difficult time with trying to understand the personality of God as it is written in the OT compared to Jesus view in the NT. I do see the love of God in the OT often, but as you point out, much of His vengeance sure seemed extreme. It would be nice to have answers to that enigma instead of just an attempt at explanation. Of course, anything we come up with is opinion and many of us have agreed and disagreed at times when comparing certain understandings. When we realize there are no answers until after the curtain falls, we realize also it is our faith that gives us courage to face the unknown.

Our hope is in what we believe as to God and eternity and no one has a right to tell you how to believe or where to place your hope and trust. It is, however, our responsibility to seek out answers that lead us to the truth which sets us free, not imprisons us.

Edited January 17, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Dan56]

Have any children? Ever play music? Ever invent something? Ever write a peom? Ever start a business? So, if you don't recall creating anything you may be in the first stages of Alzheimers.

Mankind has never created anything. We have invented things from what already exist, we have started things from material around us, and we have produced more of what we have. But everything we've discovered, invented, or produced, already existed. For example; We may have invented gunpowder, but we didn't create the sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate.

Your individual sins cannot be done away with by the blood of man or beast. You must repent and make amends. You must forgive others. The blood of Jesus does not lift that requirement as today's ianity insists.

I agree that repentance and forgiving others is part of the process of gaining forgiveness for ourselves, but I disagree that our sins are not washed-away and blotted-out via the cross.

This is a basic teaching of Jesus that your "Holy" Roman Fathers obfuscated in their didactions, redactions and editings. Why? Because they only wanted you dependent upon THEM and their Hierarchy of control. Totalitarian control. Control over your body, mind and soul. Anti-Christ. Still here today.

Take for example, the Book of Revelation, what exactly did the holy Roman fathers transform or change in Revelation that could have possibly promoted their hierarchy of control? The anti-Christ is Satan himself, not Rome.

No, it is not the Bible you hold sacred. It is your belief system.

I don't look at the bible as being my own 'belief system' per se, but rather God's Word to all who will hear (read) it. Believing in Jesus isn't a system, but a reality.

In closing I ask this question. Why would Almighty God allow this deception?

There is clearly deception in the world, but I don't believe its the bible.

[Dan56]

I contest that Dan. It says that those with faith would do what he has been doing. So your saying that Jesus did not mean miracles, healing the sick and rising from the dead after crucifixion. If it just meant preaching and talking to God then I am sorry but the Jews and others had a head start on this.

I think the 'greater works' Jesus had in mind were not greater miracles in terms of signs and wonders, but that greater works would be done in reference to the work of the Spirit in people's hearts.

[Pete]

Take for example, the Book of Revelation, what exactly did the holy Roman fathers transform or change in Revelation that could have possibly promoted their hierarchy of control? The anti-Christ is Satan himself, not Rome.

I have a friend who is Roman Catholic and he informed me some while ago that the verse:- "I solemnly tell you that whatever you as a Church bind on earth will in Heaven be held as bound, and whatever you loose on earth will in Heaven be held to be loosed. Weymouth New Testament" gives authority for the Roman Catholic church to have powers that can affect people both on earth and in heaven. He told me the RC church is seen to be quite literally God's church on earth and other groups and churches are differing religions.

Now I do not wish to debate that here (accept to say I do not agree) but there are differing ways to read the bible and some churches use verses to give themselves authority against all other. One can read Revelations and understand it from a spiritual angle, a church administration, or an extension of Paul's message on salvation. There is huge debate as to whether Revelations was written to be fulfilled and give hope to those suffering persecution in the time of the Roman empire or at some future date and much of how one interprates it depends on ones accepted theology.

There is also much debate as to whether John the disciple, John the writer of the gospel, John the writer of the letters and John the author of Revelations were all or not, differing people.

All I would say is that much of the understanding of the bible has been based on giving authority to someone at the expense of another.

Some say the great commission for instance, was just for the disciples at the time, just for his church on earth (i.e. RC or orthrodox) and some say it is for everyone. I expect what a person makes of that would depend upon what church or ideology a person follows.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Pete

[Pete]

I think the 'greater works' Jesus had in mind were not greater miracles in terms of signs and wonders, but that greater works would be done in reference to the work of the Spirit in people's hearts.

So would you distance yourself from people who preach that Jesus did say they can heal because it only meant the disciples?

There are many around who argue that:-

http://fertra1.blogspot.com/2009/09/weve-got-power-to-heal.html

"Given these gifts, today’s church will operate as the disciples did under the authority and

power of Jesus. It is our right as followers of Christ. For example, we have the right to

exercise:

_ authority and power over unclean spirits (Mk 6.7)

_ authority and power to heal disease (Mat 10.1)

_ authority and power to move mountains (symbolic or otherwise) (Mat 17.20)

_ authority to announce the forgiveness of sins through Jesus (Jn 20.23)"

http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/authority.pdf

"If Jesus is truly in you, you also have the power to heal: sicknesses, pain, casting out of devils, raising the dead - whatever the affliction, we have the same power that Jesus has to heal them. "

http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/heal.htm

I personally have attended healing services and they have preached that Jesus did give them the power. However, they used the "get out of jail card" when things did not go as planned and blamed it on a person for not having enough faith. Which leaves the poor victim feeling worse off (feeling ill and rejected by God).

[RevRainbow]

I am in agreement with you Pete, and there is no getting around the fact that greater things are we capable of doing as Jesus' disciples. The problem lies not with the Bible, but within ourselves.

Methinks, Pete, there is a reason why we do not see the promises of Jesus reflected in the lives of His followers. Our lack of faith. Coolhand also referred to this situation in regards to healing and miracles. They don't happen because we are afraid. It is, as it usually is with sin, a matter of pride. Even as Christians, our spirit tell us that many of these healing services are phony and without merit, a sideshow which blasphemes God. Might I also add those folks who desperately want to speak in tongues to prove to others they are surely saved, to the point of faking it...and the interpretations. These things should not be so but they exist because of the sadly lacking faith in that what we believe is actually true.

We shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Okay, sounds good so why don't it work? You pointed out, Pete, that many times the card is played that the recipient had not enough faith. An easy out for the healer and, for the most part, erroneous. As I see it, the reason is WAVERING. A momentary doubt (such as Moses striking the rock twice for water) can keep you out of the promise. Faith is the key.

We may say we believe the bible but it boils down to not quite everything. The problem we have is our understanding that Jesus doesnt lie so, we must blame some reason for not being able to heal. We fail to see that we are a vessel, a conductor for the power of God through the Spirit, in Christ. Yet, when the test comes, when we are brought into the house and see a sick child, as we begin to lay hands on them, we whisper in our mind, "I hope this works because I do not want to look like a fool." Therein lies the problem, we are worried about how WE will appear to others if it doesnt work, so our faith is misdirected as we put the faith in our hands rather than in the power of God which can flow through them. Our vanity as to "how we will look" is what prevents us.

There are reasons for sickness and disease. Remember Jesus said that the one guy was born blind not because of the sins of his parents but so that the glory of God could be manifest in him. Some are sick because they have sinned, some are sick because of natural cause-effect and some simply to be healed at the right time. A christian walking in the Spirit, will be able to discern and use appropriate response in healing (there are different methods). We all can pray for healing but some have a specific gift of healing, given by God, through the Holy Spirit. A Christian may receive this gift of being able to heal, either directly or through asking. But without faith, it will avail little.

Doubt works like this in our mind. We believe in the power of healing, yet we ask God to "make it work." It does work so why ask, just gird up your loins and do it. He who wavers in faith is like a ship tossed about the waves. I fear we do not have the "power" because deep down, we really don't have the faith to believe that it "really" works.

I remember one night, some years ago, receiving a call that someone's child had died. I felt a strong spiritual movement to go to the hospital and pray over that child and restore her life. Instead of getting in the car and going, I hesitated and said to myself, what if it doesnt work...I'll look like a fool, and, as I pondered, I decided not to go. It was a grievous sin of unbelief for which I am sorry.

Another time, a few years later, when I worked in the City Health Department, I was walking down the hall of the clinic when a woman and child approached, the child holding her stomach and crying in pain. I asked the nurse who was with them what was wrong (I am not a doctor), and she told me the child had ingested lead paint and they were headed for X-ray. Instinctively, without forethought, I bent down, placed my hands on the child's face, looking in her eyes, and said, don't cry, you'll be alright." The child began to stop crying; sniffling and wiping her tears, they continued to walk on. Later, the nurse told me they found no evidence in the X-ray of any lead paint and the child was released!

Christianity is proven not by words, but by deeds. We have to ask ourselves, do we really believe what we say we believe. If we believe in the words of Jesus, why then can we not act on them with full assurance. Perhaps we should pray like the man in the NT, "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!"

Edited January 17, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Pete]

The trouble is, as I see it, no person today can heal people by their faith. Sure many can talk about it but that's where it begins and ends.

I can recall a lovely lady who had been a Christian all her life being dogged by cancer. She had healing prayers said over her for years but the cancer kept returning. She was given many operations for removal of tumours and to lengthen her life. In the end, when frail by surgery upon surgery, she just stopped eating and would pull out drips and nasal gastric feeds. She prayed and prayed for healing until with bitter pain she gave in.

The church argued that she had committed suicide by not eating but I do not believe so. She just saw what was to happen and took the only path that she felt she had left to her after years of suffering and living in agony.

I am not saying her prayers (or mine went unanswered) but it was one of many very painful events. I just believe she is in a better place.

I have also met people who have come to hospital and tell me that they had been healed by their church but I look at the x-rays and medical tests and see nothing has changed.

One would think if Jesus had meant for us to heal people by faith he would of at least had someone about who could do it today.

I see unexplained events from time to time but they are not about any particular faiths or religion. It is just that the human body is complex and sometimes circumstances play out in their favour.

Sorry to put a downer on things but I really do not know any faith healers who can show by scientific testing that they achieved anything. Sure belief can be powerful, but in my experience, it is not without limitations.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

Sorry for the double quote above. I have no idea how that happened!

This is one of the dangers of spiritual blindness. Now Fawzo, do not be upset with me, for I mean all of us who do not regard the bible as inerrant (and those who do). There is a difference we should see between those who regard the bible as a means of communication from God and those who seek to disprove that premise. To me, the Bible may not be inerrant, but it certainly is sanctified. Sanctification means to be set aside, ordained, for a specific use and in this case, use by God's Spirit in communicating to us through the Scriptures.

Many who have been "turned off" by various preachers, teachers and churches, have begun a crusade against the God of the Bible by trashing the scriptures. It is not fair to blame God or those who diligently seek Him through the Bible. Just as there are dangers in elevating the Bible to the ultimate truth, there are the dangers of disregarding it also.

It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices.

You say the Bible is a mess. No, it is not. It is the Word of God, but many have made a mess out of it. Before I go further, I accept that what you say above and what I say are our opinions only, it is our pride that presents our statements as fact. These may be considered our beliefs, but our beliefs are based on what very little we actually know spiritually.

Are people attacking the Bible and or God, or is it the concept of infallibility which is being attacked? Wouldn't make much sense to attack the book. I'll consider myself as one of these attackers to make my point. There are portions of the Bible which I still love and cherish today and I know portions of it are historically accurate. There are other portions which we know aren't historically accurate or that have bee redacted. Do you consider it an attack when these later are discussed?

As for attcking any Deity. My personal belief is that any deity which can be attacked isn't worth the goat feces they are made out of.

Methinks it is the claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God trying to give it a valdity and distiction which it truly does not hold that creates the furor you perceive as an attack. As we can see from the one Biblical verse we are discussing God's testimony is given to every being in all of creation. The Bible is no valid than any other of these expressions which were inspired by this Godly testimony. The Bodhi tree and all of creation were speaking to the Buddha just as the bush did to Moses and many other Mystics of other philosophies have received their messages through the wonders of nature. One day one might recieve one through Mushrooms

I do not see a contradiction in these two portions of the bible.

In one instance, Paul is talking to believers in Christ and explains that the evidence of the existance of God is all around so that men are without excuse in their DENYING the existence of God. In Acts, Paul is talking to people who acknowledge the existence of gods, to the degree that they even covered their butts by erecting a statue to one they may have overlooked. Paul used this scenario as an opening to verify their belief in an unknown God and enlighten their ignorance (which God winked at) about that God.

The Bible is confusing to those who read it in the flesh, rather than in the spirit. And, if we are looking for contradictions, we shall find them only because God rewards those who diligently seek Him and not those who have contempt for the manner in which His Spirit communicates to others.

I have said it before and I say it again, the thing that saddens me here at ULC is the contempt expressed by some in this forum for the Bible, yet they do not show the same contempt for other so-called sacred writings of other religions. I believe this is so because of the fundamentalist aspect of being "absolutely correct" as to holding the Truth, and all others wrong and headed for hell, based on their holding the Bible (and their understanding of it) as inerrant. This does not make the Bible itself the culprit nor, as I stated, the God of that Bible.

Here is the problem I have with your statements. If one looks at the ESV translation it is clear that the things of God aren't only clearly made known to believers, but to all. One doesn't need exclusive access to this Holy Spirit or any such exclusive priviledges that Christians so often seem to claim as their own as a type of decipher code, needed to give them exclusive and extensive access to God's Word. One merely has to keep an open mind and listen, and all the knowledge and testimony any Being needs is there universally for everyones consumption. Whether one be Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, Pagan etc etc etc.

Its the claim of superiority and separate specialness of Religious cults, marking others as inferior and ignorant which is being attacked, and rightfully so!!!!

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptilesRomans 1:18-23 (ESV)

Edited January 17, 2010 by Fawzo

[Fawzo]

Mankind has never created anything. We have invented things from what already exist, we have started things from material around us, and we have produced more of what we have. But everything we've discovered, invented, or produced, already existed. For example; We may have invented gunpowder, but we didn't create the sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate.

So then Dan I assume you are of the belief that God is the only one who can create something that hasn't already existed in his own being completely separate from himself.

Then you must give all credit for the creation of evil squarely to God. No one else could have created something that was non-God unless of course if God were already evil to begin with.

Unless you are saying some being took elements of God such as EV (love) and IL (self) and combined them in a concentrated poorly formulated way to make EVIL (love of self).

So I plan on taking IL, the Self element and removing some of self and making LI (selfless) and EV (love) and making LIVE (selfless love).

I would try to get a copyright of this formula but I think I may be infringing on some undocumented copyrights already held by Buddha, Yeshua and many beofre me.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Fawzo

[RevRainbow]

Are people attacking the Bible and or God, or is it the concept of infallibility which is being attacked? Wouldn't make much sense to attack the book. I'll consider myself as one of these attackers to make my point. There are portions of the Bible which I still love and cherish today and I know portions of it are historically accurate. There are other portions which we know aren't historically accurate or that have bee redacted. Do you consider it an attack when these later are discussed?

No, I don't. We are discerning between being discussed versus being attacked. They are not the same.

As for attcking any Deity. My personal belief is that any deity which can be attacked isn't worth the goat feces they are made out of.

Methinks it is the claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God trying to give it a valdity and distiction which it truly does not hold that creates the furor you perceive as an attack. As we can see from the one Biblical verse we are discussing God's testimony is given to every being in all of creation. The Bible is no valid than any other of these expressions which were inspired by this Godly testimony. The Bodhi tree and all of creation were speaking to the Buddha just as the bush did to Moses and many other Mystics of other philosophies have received their messages through the wonders of nature. One day one might recieve one through Mushrooms

Here is the problem I have with your statements. If one looks at the ESV translation it is clear that the things of God aren't only clearly made known to believers, but to all. One doesn't need exclusive access to this Holy Spirit or any such exclusive priviledges that Christians so often seem to claim as their own as a type of decipher code, needed to give them exclusive and extensive access to God's Word. One merely has to keep an open mind and listen, and all the knowledge and testimony any Being needs is there universally for everyones consumption. Whether one be Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, Pagan etc etc etc.

You misunderstood me. Paul, in writing to believers, shows how the evidence of God is all around for everyone to see so that they are without excuse. The Truth Paul speaks of is that GOD IS and has revealed Himself as such through Creation for all to see and understand.

Its the claim of superiority and separate specialness of Religious cults, marking others as inferior and ignorant which is being attacked, and rightfully so!!!!

Somewhat, IMO. As we re-read the verse below you posted, it states that folks gave up God for images of non-existent beings which they created in their own minds and carved from God's handiwork. They wound up worshiping the creations of Man and God rather than God Himself. I agree with your take on the meaning, in part, as relates to cults or exclusiveness. To think oneself better or superior to another in being is a form of unrighteousness and ungodly.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptilesRomans 1:18-23 (ESV)

Edited January 17, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

You misunderstood me. Paul, in writing to believers, shows how the evidence of God is all around for everyone to see so that they are without excuse. The Truth Paul speaks of is that GOD IS and has revealed Himself as such through Creation for all to see and understand.

I Understand what you are saying but isn't this is the very same message Luke is giving in Acts to the Greeks. He is telling the Greeks that

Starting from scratch, he made the entire human race and made the earth hospitable, with plenty of time and space for living so we could seek after God, and not just grope around in the dark but actually find him. He doesn't play hide-and-seek with us. He's not remote; he's near. Acts 17:26-27 (MSG)

His testimony through our natural World isn't any greater to the Greek nor Jew or Christian. He doesn't yell any louder or jump up on a pole waving a bloody red flag to get anyone's attention any more than the next guy. This evidence which is all around everyone is there for everyone, not just Paul's Roman Christians, but Luke's Pagan Greeks as well.

He can't wink at one's persons ignorance as it states in Luke and condem others for the same offense as it states in Romans.

You could make the claim that Paul is speaking only to born again believers who knew the truth and rejected it but I do not see that within the context of the writing in Romans. How many born again believers do you know or conjecture have existed through histiory that have rejected Yeshua and turned to worshipping reptiles.

Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Romans 1:22-23 (ESV)

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

He is speaking to Greeks no-believers when he states "though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring"

The verse which precedes and lead into this paragraph clearly shows to me he is not speaking to born again believers:

I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."[Romans 1:14-17 (ESV)

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this. I see a very clear and irreconcilable contradiction. I wonder if you would read Romans in the same light if you knew nothing of the Luke scripture?