Fundamental Of The Assemblies Of God

[Bluecat]

Here is a resource that we use to help answer questions about healing:

http://ag.org/ivalue/healing/

To answer your questions:

As far as certification goes, there really is no specific certification procedure. I like the way you think,

Thank you - a Roman Catholic upbringing has much to do with it! The RCC is very chary of officially attributing miracles (though popular Catholicism attributes lots). One of the criteria is that at least 2 doctors (if I remember rightly) certifies that medicine to the best of their knowledge can do no more.

and I wish more people would acutally have doctors write out that there has been a notable miracle, but many will not.

Well, to be fair, that would be asking them to step outside their area of expertise.

It might be more reasonable for a doctor to certify "to the best of my knowledge science has done everything it can for this poor person," and doctors in Europe will (occasionally) do that.

I think though that might go against the grain in the US though...

well

You are looking for medical or scientific documentation that can be reviewed and disputed as a way of determining whether there is fraud or if an actual healing has taken place. Other than the obvious signs and whatever doctors notes may exist that is all that I am aware of.

Actually I wasn't thinking of fraud at all! It seems perfectly innocent and even rather good, to me.

Most chronic illnesses have periods of remission. There's also the statistical phenomenon known as "regression to the mean."

There's also the placebo and the nocebo effects, which are absolutely wild! (did you know that 2 sugar pills have more of an effect than one, and certain colours of sugar pills have more of an effect than others?)

These effects have nothing to do with fraud or deceit, but they can be hard to tell apart from the genuine results of some intervention, whether medical or otherwise.

Conventional medical science concerns itself a lot with this, as it messes up clinical trials.

The test is observation and the individual's testimony. Of course, pastors are not doctors nor do they claim to be. But when someone is no longer limping, or is able to go back to work after being disabled, or thier doctor has taken them off of medication, or a cancer or Hep C goes into remission and stays there following prayer for the individual, that is usually acknowledged as a divine healing. Keep in mind we are talking about a church not a labratory. The focus is worshipping God, not properly observing quantitiative and qualitatitve research methodology.

In some ways that's a pity! There have been some studies done which were fascinating: did you know that a study in which some students learned to mimic faith healers (without having any faith in the healers' particular religion) found that the students were as effective as the faith healers (and that was actually fairly effective for certain conditions).

The official position papers from the AG are against people being told to abandon medical care and just relying on prayer; but to use both.

Well, good! Primum, non nuocere is a fine principle.

[When I lived in Thailand a healer made a certain splash claiming to cure HIV/AIDs - but a condition of the cure was to not be tested for the virus... Umm, yeah.]

Relapses happen, and they happen for various reasons. Many view it as the relapsing persons' faith being weak, which I think is a mistake. Staying healed is like staying healthy; it is not a passive endeavor. The Scriptures can help train us to avoid attitudes and behaviours that contribute to relapses and bad health spiritually, mentally, and physically.

Yes... up to a point.

Even amongst the faithful, the deathrate is 100%.

In the long run, of course, and the long run may be the best we have.

Still it sounds sane and positive, and even like it might improve people's lives. I wish you all the best with that.

[mark 45]

I have been trying to get people of these other belief system to compare and contrast issues from these beleif systems but havent had any luck. All I seem to get is people telling me that theirs is as valid and mine isn't as valid as I claim. There is validity to these other systems, are they as valid it what you are asking. I would like to suspend that answer pending some compare and contrast discourse. I already have two topics started asking for this in Universal Spirituality. Let's discuss there.

That was talking about Christianity in general, not the AG specifically. One of the things that has drawn me back to the AG is the focus shift and the culturally relavant programs.

I think is have more to do with an effeective generation of social engineering. The "I Gen" link laid that out pretty cleary.

i went back and looked at the topics you reference in universal spirituality.one never got an answer,and i'm not even sure what you were looking for.the other,the last answer was from me,and i may have ben off base,but nobody said so.

being raised in the ag,and i won't go into my experiences there(let alone what i feel about it)and i never saw any shift from what they were let alone culturally revelent programs.in fact,some of the worst bigots i ever met were there.but i digress and i said i wouldn't.

if you find comfort,truth and growth there,then i wish you well.i won't argue the points with you,i am very well aware of them,and how they are used.i also know how they use the core teachings,and claim that once something is given,it can also be taken away.keeps the sheep in line.

[Hyper Real]

15.WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.

So the message is convert or else?

I believe nothing has changed, Yahweh has always been a God of 'do as I say or else', and he will always be.

I do not believe Jesus is the messiah or Christ. He did speak of God but not of Yahweh but of a spiritual God. I believe Yahweh killed Jesus but Jesus showed he overcame the material world.

Christianity is a Yahweh based religion, and unfortunately it shows, crusades, holy inquisitions and now an announcement of punishing humans in a lake of fire.

Not very loving.

[Pete]

So the message is convert or else?

I believe nothing has changed, Yahweh has always been a God of 'do as I say or else', and he will always be.

I do not believe Jesus is the messiah or Christ. He did speak of God but not of Yahweh but of a spiritual God. I believe Yahweh killed Jesus but Jesus showed he overcame the material world.

Christianity is a Yahweh based religion, and unfortunately it shows, crusades, holy inquisitions and now an announcement of punishing humans in a lake of fire.

Not very loving.

From what I understand the Jews did not believe was an eternal punishment. It was a time in which a person would be confronted by their failings and thus a spiritual fire and afterwards they would be returned to their families. I know you appear to want Christianity all sewn up as nothing but a cruel religion but for me that is just too narrow a view. In the UK and in many places in the world it is recognised that the first schools were set up by the Christians, most social care organizations were set up by the Christians and the most active out reach initiatives for the homeless and those with drug and alcohol problems on the street are still carried out by Christians. Is it not odd that if all Christians worshiped a cruel God and were cruel as you say that they should try to be so loving to those who find themselves in unfortunate circumstances?

[Hyper Real]

In the UK and in many places in the world it is recognised that the first schools were set up by the Christians, most social care organizations were set up by the Christians and the most active out reach initiatives for the homeless and those with drug and alcohol problems on the street are still carried out by Christians. Is it not odd that if all Christians worshiped a cruel God and were cruel as you say that they should try to be so loving to those who find themselves in unfortunate circumstances?

Christians do indeed good works, but not only Christians do good works.

I am convinced that if those people would be Jewish, Muslim, Asatru or whatever religion they would still do good works.

[Pete]

Christians do indeed good works, but not only Christians do good works.

I am convinced that if those people would be Jewish, Muslim, Asatru or whatever religion they would still do good works.

I never said they would not but it seems to me you have it in for the Jews and Christians and Muslims. Many do these good works because they feel inspired by their God but you appear to suggest that God would not have willed such things. I remain confused..

[Hyper Real]

I never said they would not but it seems to me you have it in for the Jews and Christians and Muslims.

I do not have it in for anyone.

Jew, Christian, Muslim, people of any other faith, agnostic or atheist I think we are all equal and all have the right to believe whatever we feel is right.

I believe believers in Yahweh refuse to see the raw truth about their God. I think that is not due to ill will but they are under Yahweh's spell. Even if you show them a bible text with an atrocity committed by Yahweh they refuse to believe it and find interpretations to make it look like it is a good thing. That is the common thing for his followers, all that Yahweh does must be good even when the bible clearly states things that I think really cannot in in any way be called good.

[Pete]

I do not have it in for anyone.

Jew, Christian, Muslim, people of any other faith, agnostic or atheist I think we are all equal and all have the right to believe whatever we feel is right.

I believe believers in Yahweh refuse to see the raw truth about their God. I think that is not due to ill will but they are under Yahweh's spell. Even if you show them a bible text with an atrocity committed by Yahweh they refuse to believe it and find interpretations to make it look like it is a good thing. That is the common thing for his followers, all that Yahweh does must be good even when the bible clearly states things that I think really cannot in in any way be called good.

Okay, I am with you on that one- some do in my experience make excuses for some of the nasty bits of the book . The difference I have is that I do not believe that much of what is said to have happened actually happened or was really the will of Yahweh.

lets take some verse from 1 John 4 and see how that matches your view of Yahweh.

1 John 4:7.

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. ⁸ Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. ⁹

^{and 1 John 4: 16-21}

¹⁶ And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. ¹⁷ This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. ¹⁸ There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

¹⁹ We love because he first loved us. ²⁰ Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. ²¹ And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Pete

[Hyper Real]

Pete, I think John definitely contains good things.

Is the spiritual God (not Yahweh) love? I believe we cannot equate God to love, e.g. I do not believe God = love.

To me the love comes in the understanding that our spirits are connected, however not through the material realm and most certainly not through Yahweh.

Why not through Yahweh?

I believe Yahweh wants to divide not unite the peoples of the Earth. First Yahweh divided the Jews from the gentiles, then he divided the gentiles in Muslims, Christians and some smaller Yahweh based religions. And Christianity is divided yet again. The more division the more wars, the more bigotry.

In John we can also read about judgement. So how loving is that?

I will be one of those who will forever burn in a lake of fire, perhaps the angels will push me in, or who knows perhaps faithful Christians feel compelled to help for the 'good cause'.

A lake of fire!

Do you think loving Christians tell their children that will happen if they don't do what is told of them?

I mean Pete how can one possibly spin 'burning in a lake of fire' in a positive and loving way?

I would say if one has enemies then first make up with them and then talk about the spiritual love between each other!

Also, I think many Christians (but not all) qualify the term brother and sister. For some only a select group is considered brother and sister, perhaps only fellow Christians or people form the 'right' denomination.

It is said one can judge the branch from the fruits. Well we received a division between Jews and gentiles, and between gentiles yet another division. We can witness tribal wars, crusades, jihads.

Yahweh caused it and did he say it was good?

[Hyper Real]

Also contrast Yahweh's divisions of people with Jesus' encounters with Samaritans.

[Pete]

Pete, I think John definitely contains good things.

Is the spiritual God (not Yahweh) love? I believe we cannot equate God to love, e.g. I do not believe God = love.

To me the love comes in the understanding that our spirits are connected, however not through the material realm and most certainly not through Yahweh.

Why not through Yahweh?

I believe Yahweh wants to divide not unite the peoples of the Earth. First Yahweh divided the Jews from the gentiles, then he divided the gentiles in Muslims, Christians and some smaller Yahweh based religions. And Christianity is divided yet again. The more division the more wars, the more bigotry.

In John we can also read about judgement. So how loving is that?

I will be one of those who will forever burn in a lake of fire, perhaps the angels will push me in, or who knows perhaps faithful Christians feel compelled to help for the 'good cause'.

A lake of fire!

Do you think loving Christians tell their children that will happen if they don't do what is told of them?

I mean Pete how can one possibly spin 'burning in a lake of fire' in a positive and loving way?

I would say if one has enemies then first make up with them and then talk about the spiritual love between each other!

Also, I think many Christians (but not all) qualify the term brother and sister. For some only a select group is considered brother and sister, perhaps only fellow Christians or people form the 'right' denomination.

It is said one can judge the branch from the fruits. Well we received a division between Jews and gentiles, and between gentiles yet another division. We can witness tribal wars, crusades, jihads.

Yahweh caused it and did he say it was good?

The difference I have is as I said I do not believe the divisions are from Yahweh. The other thing is the differences are only as important as each individual wants to make them (IMO) and maybe there is a lesson in that..

The other thing as I have said before that the pit of fire is seen in Jewish circles as a spiritual confrontation with ones on nature. It is not eternal as the NT wishes to make it sound.. Remember this letter was for mainly for a Jewish audience and it has been my experience that we have often failed to understand what some of these things mean in their understanding and replaced with the churches guess work (IMO).

Just a point on the topic of love. Coolhand has been the only one who has link you as a friend so far despite your attacks on his faith and God. Maybe that is worth noting too.

[Hyper Real]

Just a point on the topic of love. Coolhand has been the only one who has link you as a friend so far despite your attacks on his faith and God. Maybe that is worth noting too.

To me to have a (spiritual) love for others does not require the others must have the same religious convictions, or are open to my beliefs. And friendship to me is a connection that includes respect but not necessarily agreement for each of our beliefs.

To me even when people have diametrically opposed views that does not imply they must hate each other.

[Brother Michael Sky]

To me even when people have diametrically opposed views that does not imply they must hate each other.

frequently, it means a conversation would be beneficial.... unless one is overly sensitive.....

[Pete]

To me to have a (spiritual) love for others does not require the others must have the same religious convictions, or are open to my beliefs. And friendship to me is a connection that includes respect but not necessarily agreement for each of our beliefs.

To me even when people have diametrically opposed views that does not imply they must hate each other.

Very true (IMO).

[Atwater Vitki]

I can throw in a bit here, but keeping it short..ha!....

First off I agree that AOG is usually one of the few churches completely open to the public with their many diverse programs. When my son came to live with me at age 11, the local AOG in Rio Dell, CA, had an excellent "after school" (3p-6p) curriculum for all kids of any belief. My son did very well there and met many new friends. Absolutely a "good thing"! I can applaud the Assembly Churches for that particular outreach to their communities.

My only real problem was that after a couple of months the "pressure" began...showing up Friday nights inviting to church (when they knew I worked Sundays)...then not allowing my son in certain sports centered programs that were for "Members only"...and when I considered membership for his sake...question #2 on the application was "annual income"...that has bothered me regardless of which brand/label/church it may be....but when it was left blank and the secty called to ask, and I refused to state my income, the next call was from the pastor. As politely as I could be in my rationale for refusing the info, he would not allow membership without 1.) Full disclosure of income 2.) My baptism at AOG after a 10 week indoctrination "class" - understandable for "Membership" into an exclusive club 3.) my, then 12 yr old, son also being put through the "Junior Crusaders" program and made to be up for adult membership when he turned 16.

So the choice to do what's good/best for my son had too many strings attached. To be fair, I have to state this was not just the AOG, but the Baptists, Seventh Day and Methodists churches as well. I just have a problem with any program or such being advertised as "For the good of the children"....but only IF you do a., b., c., etc. I just believe the programs should be as advertised = 100% for the betterment of the children, not put parental requirements on it as a means to gain membership.

I have a grand suspicion of any church that asks for one's annual income. This tells me they don't "trust" the individual to tithe according to conscience, not income. My Mom's church (Evangelical Covenant) has gone so far as to make tithing an auto transfer of funds an "option" for members. That "option" thus becomes mandatory and to get them to remove that from her was some serious discussions with my sis, mom and church...they weren't going to allow her out of her "contract" until we raised legal issues and threatened with the courts...they immediately changed their tune....and I repeat was NOT an AOG church.

My only other question is the speaking in tongues, Cool. If it is suppose to be spontaneous, moved by "the Spirit", without coercing or any sort of "prodding", how then can many AOG's actually have time aside during each sermon for this practice? I do not understand how "spontaneous" equates to 11:15 - 11:35 a.m. every Sunday? Then, after over hearing one of the "good ol' boys" (deacon from the Rio Dell AOG) state at the diner, in public - talking to a friend - "Oh I don't know, just babble "some s!!t" the Interpreter will give 'em something good!" - well obviously this made it neither spontaneous nor legit and has really stuck with me as just one more New Age gambit for cash, not a legit "salvation" of the Spirit. At several of the services I attended the flailing of arms and legs, the screaming babbles etc...well to be honest, just seemed like a total "show" to me. I guess I've just never been so moved.

This may not be the case at your church Cool, but since that happening 20 years ago to me and my son, it has left a terrible haze in my head about the whole process. I can go down to the alley behind the drugie shelter if all I want to hear is some "babbled bs". At least there, it is not under any pretense.

Please don't take this as an "attack", I wanted to relay my personal experiences and perhaps get some understanding after 2 decades. I would encourage anyone seeking that sort of "excitement" from the Scriptures to seek out AOG as they are certainly not a quiet crowd. There is indeed a "Spirit" that seems to motivate and move the congregation...I guess I still have many questions as to just exactly what that spirit is, where it comes from and why people would choose to do something so many others deem a little "over the edge"?

Believe me, in comparison to an Evangelical sermon, which is difficult to distinguish from a funeral, there is a lot of "LIFE" at AOG services. I guess I still have too many questions to honestly take it in as a truth to me.

Blessings of Peace,

[Bro. Hex]

To me to have a (spiritual) love for others does not require the others must have the same religious convictions, or are open to my beliefs. And friendship to me is a connection that includes respect but not necessarily agreement for each of our beliefs.

To me even when people have diametrically opposed views that does not imply they must hate each other.

Well said and very true!

[revnewtoyou]

For those that are not familiar with the Assemblies of God, and are not sure what a person believes that claims to be and Assemblies of God (AG) church member, these are the 16 foundational truths of the AG.

Our 16 Fundamental Truths

1.WE BELIEVE...The Scriptures are Inspired by God and declare His design and plan for mankind.

2.WE BELIEVE...There is only One True God–revealed in three persons...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).

3.WE BELIEVE...In the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As God's son Jesus was both human and divine.

4.WE BELIEVE...though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin–ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.

5.WE BELIEVE...Every Person Can Have Restored Fellowship with God Through 'Salvation' (trusting Christ, through faith and repentance, to be our personal Savior). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]

6.WE BELIEVE...and practice two ordinances—(1) Water Baptism by Immersion after repenting of one's sins and receiving Christ's gift of salvation, and (2) Holy Communion (the Lord's Supper) as a symbolic remembrance of Christ's suffering and death for our salvation.

7.WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]

8.WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.

9.WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike.

10.WE BELIEVE...The Church has a Mission to seek and save all who are lost in sin. We believe 'the Church' is the Body of Christ and consists of the people who, throughout time, have accepted God's offer of redemption (regardless of religious denomination) through the sacrificial death of His son Jesus Christ.

11.WE BELIEVE...A Divinely Called and Scripturally Ordained Leadership Ministry Serves the Church. The Bible teaches that each of us under leadership must commit ourselves to reach others for Christ, to worship Him with other believers, to build up or edify the body of believers–the Church and to Meet human need with ministries of love and compassion.

12.WE BELIEVE...Divine Healing of the Sick is a Privilege for Christians Today and is provided for in Christ's atonement (His sacrificial death on the cross for our sins). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]

13.WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]

14.WE BELIEVE...in The Millennial Reign of Christ when Jesus returns with His saints at His second coming and begins His benevolent rule over earth for 1,000 years. This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel and the establishment of universal peace.

15.WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.

16.WE BELIEVE...and look forward to the perfect New Heavens and a New Earth that Christ is preparing for all people, of all time, who have accepted Him. We will live and dwell with Him there forever following His millennial reign on Earth. 'And so shall we forever be with the Lord!'

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm

Of these 16 there are four that are considered "core" or "cardinal" doctrines: salvation (#5), baptism in the Holy Spirit (#7), divine healing (#12), and the return of Christ (#13).

God bless.

[revnewtoyou]

I am overjoyed to hear the beliefs of the Assembly of God. I often wondered what that church was all about.

I share the belief of divine healing. I have experienced it before. I also believe that the faith of the person or people doing the laying on of hands or healing must be chase and devout or it has no result.

The receiver must be faithful and sorry for all sin to get healed. If we all believed we could heal the world.

[Pete]

I am overjoyed to hear the beliefs of the Assembly of God. I often wondered what that church was all about.

I share the belief of divine healing. I have experienced it before. I also believe that the faith of the person or people doing the laying on of hands or healing must be chase and devout or it has no result.

The receiver must be faithful and sorry for all sin to get healed. If we all believed we could heal the world.

I do not agree with very much that the Assembly of God believes but I just want to say welcome to the forum.

[Hyper Real]

The receiver must be faithful and sorry for all sin to get healed. If we all believed we could heal the world.

So if it does not work it must be either the healer not being chase or devout or the receiver not feeling sorry for all sin?

So if it does not work we don't have no true Scotsman but a no true healer.

And yes, I do not believe in divine healing.

Wondering who is going to be the next Benny Hinn millionaire......

Edited May 17, 2011 by hyperreal