VonNoble

I think it might be....the legacy of the framers of the Constitution affects all of us..... von

But people have an impact without ever Waiting to get recognition... heroes can save a life anonymously. I have no no idea who helped my great-grandpa raise my grandad. But I know that someone did... that matters. People saved by firefighters don’t know the name of the hero... or the doctors in ER.... but the remember the impact of the actions. Things don’t have to be on the word stage.... big...spashy -sometimes lives are saved just by quietly giving a darn at the right moment.... maybe von

Okay. In what room (gathered for what purpose) would that not be true? von

Ummmm...maybe not exactly. Good and bad deeds are not offered in equal measure. The vast majority of people perform extreme numbers... more good deeds than bad ones. The law of probability might indicate the chances favor you being remembered for the good ones, no? von

One benefit of Buddhism as a philosophy is the strong current away from self recrimination and guilt. The approach encourages learning. Every human has tons of past mistakes. It is a given at birth we will learn from those mistakes. Screw ups are sort of necessary for most of us to realize the wrong way to go about it von

I see your point. On the other hand, our family folklore is riddled with stories of kindness extended to my great great grandfather when his wife died and he HAD TO go to work.... and others helped him raise the kids. Also stories about helping my immigrant grandparents when they arrived with nothing at Ellis Island... certainly these kind acts (often related through my siblings to their grandchildren).....well that would mean the deed lived on through at least five generations.... THAT is just what our family knows about. We are often unaware of the significance of the impact of our actions.... things we did not even know helped someone... may have changed their life.... von

The only thing about you that will live on forever is the kindness you have given. Is that true? von

Another what you project to the world thought I heard yesterday...... The most attractive person in any room....is the happy one True? von

That may be what is suppose to happen. I cannot say if it does or does not. There were plenty of rumors about that particular church .... but gossip is often wrong. Even if taxes were paid on the profits.... they were not likely paid on the land as most if the enterprise was under the more than a city block long church building. If the proper taxes were paid like any other businesss - than I have no issue with it. thx. von

Point WELL made... thanks von

Valid point - Jesus throwing money changers out of the temple (with a note of irritation if not anger)....still in cases where the mega-church is the owner of the land, building and all property therein .....there is money to be made. About 15 years ago - I became aware that the PASTOR of the nearest megachurch owned the land upon which the church was built (and collected hefty rent for a long term lease, the pastor also owned the building (not the church congregation) (but the pastor held the title) for which he collected rent as well. They also ran a daycare, restaurant (which turned a profit) as well as a brisk retail store, exercise classes, dance lessons and rental property (again owned by the pastor) and rented to the church. I applaud the savvy business sense. No law against being clever. I somehow felt badly for the coffee shop (yes there had been one) right across the street that went out of business. I guess that is the nub of it. One was operating as a business. The other as a tax exempt entity with a built in clientele of hundreds. The dude running the business had to pay taxes to operate. The dude with the built in clientele did not. Just didn't seem right somehow. Yeah...I know life isn't fair. But like many I root for the underdog often just cuz they have spunk against the odds. Not everything legal is right. von

von

THAT is worth a repeat. THX!

Hmmmm......I am not sure I want tax exemption to someone competing in retailing efforts (gift shops in church)....restaurants (big ones have them complete with free child care) - it does give the church not only a recruiting tool but also a financial advantage. Sort of. Maybe. If I were the coffee shop that has been opened for years - and depend on my customers to make a living. I would not be thrilled with a mega-church putting me out of business...on real estate upon which they pay no taxes (and I do) - and they use free labor (I have to pay mine the required minimum wage and all applicable FICA etc.) ......so while I get your point about the social activities...I am not sure the business model should be permitted. It then becomes more than a draw. It becomes competition to people who pay taxes and have to pay staff. Just thinking it through....still weighing it all....... Not that what I think one way or the other is worth a hill of beans to anyone but me. That too is one of the learning curves of aging. It is presumed whatever you know - is outdated. (too often that is a correct conclusion with me) von

....it is a strange world indeed.

All right to the heart of my thinking ...so thanks to all. If people do join for other than strictly spiritual reasons...and IF the churches are aware of this - do they pander to that fact. Are they running programs to attract people like any business? Are they amping up "profits: by using free labor of the members to grow the intake of money? Is that ethical? (I am sure it is legal) ...how does that play into running a business with tax exemption criticism? (church day care for free taking money away from mom and pop trying to run a day care for profit? ) von

Criticism is that Buddhists allow too many choices. Anything goes. I find that is not the case. The simple guidelines allow for a person to grow comfortably. One size never fits all comfortably. There is always more than one way to see things. We are excellent at self deception. Less so as you become self aware. von

I agree. von

I met a Buddhist monk as a child. We were living in California at the time. Of course, my parents encouraged me to go ahead and talk to the guy and see what I thought about it. I did. I liked it. And promptly moved on with my life - which at that time meant lots of moving from city to city. At age 16 - I found a non-Buddhist meditation teacher (the teacher studied for some time with Buddhists) but he himself was not Buddhist. In fact he was a Jesuit priest of all things. I took to meditation right away. But like many - I was not always consistent (am more so now.) So here is what i know after a half century of dabbling with the philosophy of Buddhism. (I know the sects/schools of Buddhism differ re: rituals etc) but there are some basics that seem to work in every life. You get to pick and choose with Buddhism. There is a variation for those who want to involve spiritual beings - most do not. But you can choose. Either way you are still a Buddhist. Some Buddhists believe everyone is a Buddhist - some just don't know they are yet. Maybe they will in the next lifetime. You don't have to sign a contract, dance around the May pole or anything else. If you think you are - you are. Most variations of Buddhism opt for practical, accepting and simple. There is no clergy required to "get" the message. There is no tithe required to be in good standing (certainly like any other thing if you are using the electric in the building or taking lessons you should make an offering but no one has EVER required me to pay to learn or pray in a Buddhist building or class.) By design the message is simple and clear. Interestingly enough - not everyone takes away the same exact interpretation and it rarely matters. Whatever you get - usually helps you to become better. More aware of your own actions. Also more aware of how your actions impacts the lives of others. When you are ready - you will absorb more and more understanding. of the message. When you are ready a teacher will happen by to help you but they may not actually appear in the role of a teacher. It might be a kid who speaks the truth. Which I kind of like. There have been many people who did not look like a teacher but they left an impression that changed you along the way. Anyone else want to throw in/out some generalities? von

Henrik Ibsen.....A Doll's house.....just finished reading that one in my class a the university. Now there was a chap ahead of his time (by about 50 years.) Being written in the late 1800s naturally it was completely and totally a man's world legally. Women had no rights. Cutting to the very last bit of it, the leading lady had borrowed money illegally as there was no legal option. She did so to save her husbands life. In the process she forged her father's name to a document, lied to her husband about the source of funding and managed to somehow scrape the money together to make payments of the debt. The husband finds out...is vile to her and ends by telling her she is of low moral character and he will never let her actually raise their children. She will remain in the house for appearance sake but she would be kept away from her kids. She left. (My guess is it would be pretty rough to SEE her kids but never be allowed to talk to them unsupervised...among other problems with their marriage.) The shocking part was the reaction of the students to her leaving. The author, Ibsen, certainly provided at least enough balance that one could find some reason to credit her in life. But it was a totally one sided assault on the woman in class. The language was harsh (deranged, psychotic, mental) and the observations (she should have been shot, jailed, drug through town) really astounded me. I was surprised only one female student did not want to string up the leading lady. The class is roughly 50/50 gender wise.....but only one would speak up even remotely to consider the issue might have a second side to it. It was weak and she caved in fast as the other girls in class got LOUD and aggressive. It is noteworthy that only ONE...still today....would find any merit in a woman who essentially took an enormous risk to save her husband - only to have him weaponize that effort. He had the technical right to do so. That does not make it the moral right to do so. So to the point of favorites: After finishing this work.... I read additional works of Ibsen. The subject matter in all of his works I have read so far - is largely controversial. Even now. Even 125 years later he is rocking the boat and challenging the norms. I have to give him some credit for that. von

An interesting point raised recently by my very conservative neighbor. He LOVES his church. I know this because he mentions it darn near every time I see him. He has never actually invited me to attend but he has told me quite a bit about how he was a different man before going there. His pastor is amazing and you all can fill in the rest. One point I hear over and over and over is about the GREAT program for kids there (and it does sound like they have lots of stuff for kids to do)...then he continues about the super duper extra great teen program (and I bet the kids do love the outings and trips and weekend fun things.) So are the non-church going people (and their kids) missing some social outlets that are important for balance? There are not too many programs other than athletics for teens, for example. Most teens i know don't join scouting or 4-H these days. Weekend dances at school never happen any more that I know of.....so this is a non-electronic social event for kids. Do you think parents ever join in name only just to give their kids more do? (or to get cheap child care for kids?) von

Same basic idea.....and good for you.... I suspect MANY people welcome extras into their home often unexpectedly....a kid shows up with a friend unexpectedly or....surprise everyone this is my finance ......or whatever....that is the same general train of thought. All of which is a bravo moment in my view. Highly social people seem to find a way to gather. Less social people might wait to be asked. My mother used to laugh and say my father NEVER knew a stranger. Everyone was instantly his friend. That might be so. He was a good man and a great dad. If he ever had an enemy I never knew about it. (other than me during my rebellious teenage years) von

There is no reason for others to chose this system we just grew up with it. Only as I age - do I continuously see our childhood was not not normal which is neither good or bad. We just never knew another way of things. We did not live near any family so they just invited in a family-of-the day sort of thing. Most of my siblings live too far away to see one another much any more so the adopt strangers tradition just stayed in play. von

It is proven to me over and over that my parents did not adhere always to traditional ways of doing things. This is another one of those traditions. I checked with all my siblings (but the one in Puerto Rico who we cannot contact yet) and sure enough - like me - they are opening their homes to strangers. Our mom and dad did it every year. One year it was political refugees....one year some young service men my father just "brought home" .....homeless people ....senior citizens....my dad had a knack for finding large groups of people with no place else to go. And it was a riot of fun for us kids every year. We never knew what we would have to eat (you might get turkey, mac & cheese, PB&J, whatever - we never cared. It was fascinating to hear the stories. I always looked forward to it. We all did. And apparently still do. This year we will cram our house full of university students stuck at the university over the holiday....and have also invited a group home around the corner. We haven't met the folks yet - but we will be fun to make their acquaintance over pumpkin pie. My parents were constantly broke (they had more kids than they could "afford" to be sure.....) but that never stopped them from throwing open the cupboards and using up anything in there to feed people. Somehow we always had enough. I was sort of pleased all the siblings (we are NOT alike in many ways)... but in this one thing - it is just family tradition My one sister said she is loading up on bologna and hotdogs to make sure she can keep food on the buffet line she forms in her dining room. And HER three kids - who are all now married with children - are ALSO bringing strangers into their homes for the day. It is nice to see what my folks started. We have dumped a ton of their traditions but I rather like this one survived. von

THAT REALLY made me laugh.....thanks so much for that.....I suspect your in-laws and mine are related. (shhh!) I will deny saying that if asked. von