VonNoble

We humans are odd creatures. Full of walking paradoxes to be sure. I don't really buy into the concept of sin. But full appreciate the sentiments your express. Been there (way to often in life) - thankfully the wheel turns and eventually we wear down the obstacles. The Grand Canyon in all its splendor - emerged from individual drops of water at a time ebbing away what was - into what is. So too with us.....eventually our path gets smoother (right up till we stumble over the next rock) .... (or frustrating moment) von

AND THE ANSWER IS: NO BODY. Nobody is EVER considered ignorant....at least not in this FORUM. That is my conclusion based on reading this FORUM more than (10) years. We learn from what is said (and how it is said) - what is omitted, what is repeated like a broken record, who rises to the occasion, who never apologizes.... and so it goes. NO ONE is ignorant and all of us are capable of learning something from every post and every poster. Back to the topic folks....note: THE TOPIC (not fellow posters) if you please. von

How did this portion of your posting facilitate understanding of the topic? I might be showing my ignorance but I am willing to do that if it helps me to understand why that was useful, necessary or even relevant to include this sentence in making your point? Thank you von

,,,, its all over my head

..... that's deep

I plead ignorance. I have an appointment to have everything updated in January...i well may find out my new state has the same laws as Michigan. That's one of my motivations to go get it all reviewed after crossing state lines. Appreciate you giving me a notice of the differences The last time I did this they told me they would harvest the very few donations... they could use immediately....then ship the body to cold storage to be used as needed for any number of different places. I indicated the family did not need to or want to be notified when they were done as it could be months later. (Especially if you died with something interesting). Thx von

Excellent point! And yes perfectly timed. THANK you. Years ago I signed all the necessary forms for a donation to a medical school ( this was long ago....I don't think that is required any more)....my attorney and I had a good laugh because I wanted to request my corpse go to Harvard medical school to say I was admitted there. Incidentally, I also donated any useable parts before heading to the land of scientific discovery. I have use any organ alert tag on my keychain, in my wallet and in my will collection of legal stuff. PERFECT suggestion ... thanks!!! von

Agreed. That is largely the issue. And it is not a matter of opinion in my view. Historically, when any two people (or religions) or ideologic differences or even political ones for that matter, arrive to a point of confrontation - there is never going to be understanding if the platform is as you noted. (I am right - you are wrong.) When we were kids - we added: so there. If either side is representing God (or worse yet instructed to just kill the stupid and unreasonable "other" point of view) there is little hope of anything but violence occurring. No communications can happen. Therefore - the non-violent people will walk away (or sit down) (or kneel down to pray) or try to do one of those things...... the violent ones will act upon the impasse. Might equals right sort of approach. That is NOT a recent development - it is a historical consistency. I am NOT saying that the religion is per se, necessarily at fault. I believe the corruption of the message (sometimes intentionally by leaders)...is the catalyst for violence. I believe a large number of people who believe these text to be sacred are not really familiar with them. They have not read them! They tend to rely on someone lifting excerpts and spinning them to support positions NEVER INTENDED by the original authors of the text. Which is a pity. If believers who are (now) literate (judging by sales of smart phones worldwide) ....and who have copies of the book collecting dust (or stored in memory of the electronic devices) ....would simply spend more time reading it and less time arguing about it there is a good chance the violence and animosity could be reduced. If they took a time out and just read it....all sides COULD offer far more understanding and tolerance. It does not need to be "studied" so much it needs to be lived. It provides a blueprint to a life above and beyond one's own needs. it challenges us to live beyond survival. It allows us to reap the rewards of gratitude. It allows us to fill our bucket with charity. The message in there is quite clear. And a full time job to apply in one's life. It is a philosophical how to - if you choose to apply it as such. The same message resonates across religious labels. I have not read ALL of the major sacred texts but as I get closer to the exit stage of life - I am getting closer than I was sixty + years ago. The message is very easy understand. There is no need to complicate it. Take the message. Work on growing and nurturing in the world by living it. By example. I have noted that I struggle with parts of the Quran for example. But the parts covering charity and generosity towards others are not that difficult to grasp. I know many Christians/Catholics, Muslims and Jews who live by these documents and I respect each of them immensely. They are people who validate the sanctity of the script. Their life of inspiration and generosity validate the worth of the text. NO NEED for confrontation or analyzing it (in my opinion)...as each book allows for more than one right way. If it is divinely inspired the divine part is largely on the secret that each can take what they need in full measure to have a great life - if they just READ IT for themselves. von

How much more unreliable....hmmm. That depends on a great number of factors. Some people are biologically predisposed to learn and remember things via different methods. There are auditory learners, visual learners, learners needing tactile cues and some requiring a combination. Communications are effective when a signal is received; by which ever method, and the receiver indicates understanding the message by sending an appropriate message back. For a deaf person - no communications are auditory - but they can and do communicate effectively and are competitive with the rest of the world. They are not impaired in any way. They simply don't hear. For a blind person auditory cues might be more important than for an average person. In a culture with no written language - auditory records are quite good - in fact extraordinary much of the time. Again, this is all measured objectively if you choose to pursue it. If not - that is also fine. So to address your comment directed to me - reliability of written or auditory records are largely valid - or questionable depending upon specific circumstances. it is not an either or situation. It is an either is possible reality. von

A sincere-to-save-my-soul-person (and his Sunday go to meeting, attired silent wife) knocked on my door not long ago. They had big smiles and he asked what I thought God wanted me to do with my life. i smiled right back at him and said, "What God... or which god? He stopped smiling. She stopped smiling. I was still grinning. He started again and I interrupted him (politely) & told him in my faith (without using a label) there is no God! That was met with utter disbelief. He had found a unicorn! Since all conversation came to a halt I added a jump start. I explained I don't understand the usefulness of heaven, hell, the concept of sin. I suggested to him that him since I believe I am going to recycle through life another time or two - it is likely we might want to find a new topic to chat about. LOOooong pause. Then he asked if he could give me a brochure... I said, "Of course... and after I read it I will recycle that too ". Recycling is very useful. Anyone else a spiritual recycler? von

I am pretty okay with the integrity of my life. My parents raised me to look for good and nuture it in myself and others. I think that is also true of Christianity. Spirituality can can be as paradoxical as any other facet of humanity. Strangers have repeadly died helping ...even enemies. No logic there. But plenty of integrity. von

Thank you... the research I was referring to was NOT dependent on eye witness accounts. The point in question was a spiritual lifestyle choice that very much has stood the test of time. The very few rituals of the area provided the conclusion that the spiritual practices ARE consistent over time. You certainly can locate anthropology studies that could reference the point I am making. For some people morality is simply a choice outside the confines of written text. It it is not a debate. It is an academic realty.... in my field of study. I respect you enough to leave you to conclude what works for you. von

... if you are directing this to me... perhaps you overlooked the posting bit where I noted evidence of the - unchanged for eons...was in fact a reference to a scientific (objective) documentary-presented in a university anthropology (upper level) class...it was very much not any one person's opinion. It took years to accumulate and validate the work. As I recall there were multiple sources for funding including the Australian govermment. I apologize for not being able to remember the name of the study. My point in posting was such evidence exists if one chooses to look for it. You certainly do do not have to accept my word for it.... it was merely a recollection offered to another poster. thx von

Or implode. Or stagnate. Or lack relevancy. von

I don't think there is any playing going on - (just a point of view from the sidelines) - I think a very valid point is being made. I think there is an elasticity to this statement that is useful in this discussion. There is a justification for introspection in this...or at least there was for me. von

Reading this both amused me - then I did a double take and had to give that some real thought. This is an interesting turn of a phrase....with more than one take away.....good one. von

On the literary/historical level this may hold true...point taken - if the subject is one that is to be analyzed or studied. That shifts when the text move to the sphere of philosophy/ religion though, maybe? At this time, on this planet many of these books are not currently being studied so much as they have become flash points for violence. These books are no longer in the realm of academics. The religious institutions have become so fractionalized and splintered and polluted by greed and politics, there is little chance of understanding or cooperation ...if the text is used as an authority source. Those in charge seem incapable (or unwilling to) put the gene back into the bottle of reasonableness. It has been my observation over many years: true students - those who DO actually read it for themselves; those struggling to figure out the meaning without the benefit of clergy...tend not to need to discuss it. Living it.... is proof of their understanding. Coincidentally - it leaves no time to criticize others. von

Actually that is logic I can both accept and feel comforted by. Actually - that DID help to settle things for me. I think you managed to knock the sharp edges and smooth them a bit. My thanks. von

Anyone generously hosting STRANGERS at next month's Thanksgiving dinner. For the sake of discussion I am removing finances as an issue ( there is zero requirement the meal needs to be elaborate or expensive) There are lots of reasons not to do so. Who is opening their home in spite of the reasons not to do that? And what is motivating you to do so? von

Agreed. It seems I will be fortunate if I manage to half the distance I have yet to go....in this lifetime. I suspect I am headed for the recycle bin von

Yes!

When I first read that I agree as I often say that too - - can't do anything about having an unhappy childhood so let it go (or things like that)....however - after giving it some thought that is only partially accurate. On the surface true enough. But that hindsight might also be the gain of maturity from the experience..the gain of perspective. A lesson learned. So the process of learning from it (presumably so we don't repeat it) - - we will in fact change (or be changed by it)...... Perhaps we will own up to our own contribution to our residual guilt, frustration, pent up anger or whatever.....( maybe we release these emotions BY ASKING for forgiveness or at least offering an apology) might be in this mix somewhere. I am still processing it but appreciate your giving me some running room to think on it. Is forgiveness (or seeking it) necessary? Beneficial? still working on it.... von

Anyone out there skip taking your share of whatever (to make sure others all all satisfied and full) before you fill your plate or eat your fill? Anyone make sure that the chipped plate or cup is always at your place setting? You hesitate to take the best or biggest for yourself? Anyone fuming in silence to avoid a conflict? (only to realize YOU are suffering in silence with resentment building?) REVERSING THE QUESTIONS.... Anyone speaking up and grabbing your fair share without waiting to see what others do? Anyone taking the cracked plate and chipped cup and just tossing it in the garbage removing it as an option for all? Anyone defusing conflict with humor and gentle honesty? Anyone refusing to suffer any longer (or any more fools) because you politely clarified your position rather than suffering in silence yet again? Would you speak up a second time based on the first time? Sometimes being selfish is a confused concept. Maybe often. Then again - sometimes I am confused way too often. Getting selfish has some immediate rewards, yes? Maybe even long term rewards...(any to share?) von

First, I am happy that both you and your daughter made it through those crisis moments! I have been mulling this over for awhile. I still think us being out own best resource is somehow not quite right. I WANT it to be that. Then again, the easiest person for me to deceive is me. So how reliable is my evaluation that I am the greatest be? The person to my left or right might think faster, act faster or just naturally be smarter than I am. Often (I may be a freak of nature) but too often MY instincts were not that great. Sometimes doing nothing can be the best solution. I might WANT to (usually out of fear) get up and get moving - but sometimes not listening to me and holding for a few more seconds doing nothing is more effective. Still working on this one. My gut says you gotta be right at some level but there is something that tells me - I am never as great as I wanna believe I am. (reality check: Anyone married for a long time has a partner more than willing to keep egos in check) von