VonNoble
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Posts posted by VonNoble
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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:
Technically, they don't subsidize ( financially support ) churches, they just pay taxes that tax exempt organizations don't. Keep in mind that in 2013, the government said that atheist leaders can be ministers too, since atheism can function as a religion. So leaders of an atheist organization may qualify for the exemption. Its also notable that in 2012, the IRS unjustifiably scrutinized against conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status... Imo, its all bs, I think everyone should pay the same, no exceptions or exemptions for anyone, that's equality.
Dan...I am actually not clear or sure on this point. If two retail shops a mile apart are selling Bibles for the same price. One is a church gift shop and one a bookstore. If the churches is exempt from paying taxes on profits.... not paying for public services of roads etc.... I am not certain (read that as I don’t know) if some of those things ( if they exist at all) would not be a form of subsidy.
It is a much bigger issue if churches somehow circumvent paying taxes on profits. I am really just not understanding if they do or not. Do they declare profits from the childcare, coffee shops, raffles, dances, bingo etc? Or does all of that just end up gratis in a big operating slush fund? I think that murky area might raise some issues maybe.
von
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2 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:
There are a good many non profits that are also non religious that do as much or more for the poor than churches.
Excellent point!
thx. von
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5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
This is why the church membership think that they are better than everyone else. God said so.
Now, my question. Why should secular people be subsidizing churches?
BECAUSE GOD SAID SO.... at least is
an understandable reason-so I thank you for that.... I don’t have to agree.... but I do appreciate understanding.
Your question...why should secular people be subsidizing churches?
THAT is a pertinent question!
von
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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
In fairness, any organization run by people is going to be flawed. The higher the aspirations of the group, the more obvious the failings.
This is not a church failing. It's a Human reality.
If that is the case....then how do we comprehend the projection that those belonging to churches some how behave with superior morality over those who do not attend churches? If there is no proven record of higher charitable impact by churches (over non-churches) - - no measurable social rewards, spiritual enrichment ...if they are just like everyone else - what is the point of having them? (not the accusation some might read into it...quite the contrary) ...it is more of a real question re: the reasoning behind granting them so many "passes" not given to any other entity...including the LARGE impact on politics. Any other entity is regulated more in regards to politics. That tax-free status has allowed a bunch of money to be funneled into political action type places......
One just has to wonder a bit about if the non -church folks aren't taking a bit of a hit merely because they are not grouping and funding the "non-church" folk agenda...maybe
It may be completely wrong...but it is worth considering....it has evolved over time....like most things and maybe the non-church folks should at least look at it. Is the privilege once afforded one group as a courtesy now applicable and justified?
von
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One of the most helpful things I have learned from meditation teachers .... was the fact i did not need to pick up a ton of ritual in order to reap benefits from meditation. One of the most helpful things to me especially during my work years was - meditating quicker (and more often) beat the pants off of not doing anything at all - for effectiveness. If I had to carve out twenty minutes it was less likely to stop and slow down than if I had a "drive through" version that I could do in five minutes.
I NOW find either way is good. Lots of little hits during the day can be as effective on a hectic day as a true and deep session on a relaxing day. It seems far too many how to medication books really offer suggested length of time per sessions that are daunting for may - especially beginners. it might keep someone from joining in the very best - self induced wellness program I know.
Anyone else a fan of drive through/short but effective - style of meditation?
von
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On 11/5/2017 at 4:45 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
By definition, all nonprofits -- including churches -- should not be making a profit. All profits should be subject to the same tax. That includes salary for the clergy.
So churches open their books for verification to the IRS? (Our church had a great relationship with the IRS and applaud them....they were VERY helpful to us.) ....however - we never sold things, ran raffles, played bingo - had school tuition, owned church vehicles, sponsored church sporting leagues, ran a church child care center, carnival, or a church coffee shop or gift shop....so there was zero chance we had any "profit" I am not sure that churches are audited in the same way individuals are audited.
Are they? Are churches required to complete an annual tax form like a business? And submit their revenue annually for scrutiny. If not - then how would anyone know they have a profit - I am wondering. If they do - then I guess it would be self evident.
von
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On 11/3/2017 at 7:23 PM, Songster said:
Though not one of a church's primary functions, providing social interaction for adherents of all ages is beneficial for many reasons, the most obvious being that it strengthens the bonds of friendship/love among the congregation. Despite the fact that some have used the cover of religious authority to prey on the innocent, I still believe church activities are pleasant, positive experiences.
Hmmmm....I have been to some lovely church events and ....some of the worst gossip sessions I have ever heard - in church basements. I think they offer (some of them) a WIDE array of social venues. They raise lots of money and constantly need to expand the empire to feed the growing list of staff to support all that.
It can often be accomplished without the tithing requirements too - maybe?
If it can be - than why not have the churches focused on spiritual betterment and do it effectively?
I am not sure the diluted efforts is making current church structures very effective as anything more than a social club.
Maybe.....jus mulling it over a bit.
von
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On 11/22/2017 at 4:06 PM, Brother Kaman said:
For the average American, the holiday season is fed by greed and guilt no matter if one is religious or not.
Sad. However, largely true. Thx
von
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On 11/22/2017 at 11:54 AM, cuchulain said:
My problem is that so many people use it as an excuse to merely attack others of different beliefs(namely Christians, whom I don't necessarily agree with by any means). It's a way for the pagans to claim a moral superiority with a typical childish, "I thought of it first!", which of course fails on the basis of its own childishness.
You raise a reflective moment here.....the fact that any person with an agenda is looking
for a way to wield their weapon. Interesting. Folks are seeking a way to weaponize their opinions/beliefs....to
some degree. Interesting concept.
Thx
von
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On 11/21/2017 at 5:19 PM, mark 45 said:
interesting question von,but you did say the"religious folk"so i'll stay out.
You are right - I was unintentionally exclusionary in my wording - I would be most happy
if you would contribute as I know you have, very often, helped me to cement my own thoughts.
von
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Curiosity question ...again to the religious folk affiliated with Yule logs, mistletoe, pine boughs in our homes and such. Do you feel compelled to explain the origins at this time of the year to those who do not know the origins....or do you just go with the flow and let them associate all of it with Christ's birth?
von
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I just saw the play: It's a wonderful life: A live radio play.
Watching how the old time radio shows were put together - complete with a Foley set up on stage - was fun. The special effects unfolding in front of you was like watching a magician showing you how the magic is done. Another vote for live performance as seeing that on film would not at all have been as entertaining.
von
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I made the decision to buy an Apple 8 instead of the X (thanks to all for assisting with that decision) .....I have no idea if there will be any sale before, during or after the holidays so I am holding off on that purchase just in case I can catch a break.
However, having said that - if I had not already made the decision to not buy a X the current crop of problems would be off putting . The thing I find amazing is that in spite of a significant bit of not-quite-finished-with-this tweaking by Apple the darn thing is sold out and backordered. Eh.....THAT I do not get. I get wanting the newest thing but maybe at that price its best to let them finish working the bugs out of it before plunking down the money - maybe.
Now, I was talking to some long time tech-heads (been at it since the late 60's) and they tell me Apple pretty much is now designing things to implode (become not financially fixable) in a less than four year time span. If you buy Apple - you better plan on replacing what ever you buy in the four year window...the batteries won't last - or they won't be worth fixing if you try to send them back in......anyone else hearing that?
ALSO - if you DO send something in for a battery change - you do NOT get your original item back. They give you a "exact replacement"....send yours to the home office to be refurbished and old but YOU DO NOT retain the equipment. You go home with a replacement item...anyone know about that?
von
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On 11/15/2017 at 8:16 PM, Stormbringer said:
I'm saying we can't know how those actions will carry forward and instead of focusing on a future we will not be a part of we should focus on the here and now.
The here and now - no matter what the topic - your choices in the now - affect your future trajectory even if you don't weigh that into your actions, no?
So I can eat what is on hand because that is all I have.....and not give a thought to the consequences of nutrition, nor amount (gluttony because I can today) .....I just DO...and let the consequences fall where they might. Nonetheless the hangover for many on January 1st was due to decisions made December 31st.
TRUE TO YOUR POINT...we can't know....then again - I would not drink a bottle of poison because I would not be certain it would not kill me. There is such a thing as calculated risk taking and decisions based on probability that most of us work into our current decision making.....
For those who might be fortunate enough to have accumulated any wealth - they have choices to make regarding the outcome of the material estate (providing for the family, leaving a scholarship in your name for eternity...a trust fund to care for a beloved pet until they too die....) Lots of decisions are put upon us (including naming a beneficiary to an insurance policy) so in many ways WE DO think of future consequences.
That i true to how we will be remembered or would like to be....no?
von
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5 hours ago, Dianna said:
Kids and spouses so often hear only griping about each other, so the idea to share with kids or grand kids what positive things they do might be especially important nowadays to inoculate them against a world of cyber bullying and peer pressure that causes so many teen suicides.
Do you still keep one?
Thanks for your additional insights!
Yes, like the other church members we follow the tradition once we receive our booklet. Usually it has around fifty pages. At the end of the booklet we quit writing.
When we had kids...the rest of the year our family reverted back to announcing one reason we are grateful today. One of our foster kids announced the same one everyday. He was thankful to whomever invented ice cream.
we never found a reason to budge or to nudge him off being stuck on that one. He really did love I’ve cream!
Now that the kids are gone. It is back to just the two of us. And at every meal we select our favorite reason to feel grateful.
I used to battle depression by keeping a journal.
I would get writers cramp now as my cup runneth over with blessings.... it takes several minutes to pick the best one of the hour. NICE PROBLEM TO HAVE....finally!
von
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The first year our little church was in existence.... our funds were at rock bottom. Since we did not take up a collection”...of ever even remind people about donations; initially people just didn’t think about it.
So the liturgy committee has exactly what they were willing to pull out of their own pockets to work with....and they hit upon a plan that we repeated every year after.
They literally emptied their pockets and came up with just under fifty bucks. We had twenty members at that point (four months old).....
They brainstormed searching for a tangible item they could tie to the Refection I was about to offer to the congregation and came up with an item. We DID NOT originate journaling. We certainly did not invent the idea of a gratitude journal.
What they did organize was a system of making the ideas real and part of their day.
Every person received a journal ....even the kids. We were tasked to list three and ONLY three specific reasons we were grateful before going to sleep each night. Grateful for events of just that one day.
We were to share them with the family at breakfast the next morning.
COUPLES.....were to include one specific reason to thank their partner each day. Kids were to include a thank you to a parent each day.
We hit a home run. People LIKED hearing reasons they mattered to their partner.... and liked hearing thx from the kids. often the reasons were inside jokes or funny. They ends up saving the journals and insisted those little holiday books be an every year event. We still get letters about that....
i suspect writing it down solidified the thoughts...
Anyone else doing gratitude journals?
von
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All of us flux on tons of stuff in our life. As kids we had years of wonder and delight if we were lucky. At least a couple of them.
As adults - it can be a roller coaster.
Years we want to see the family and years we don't. Years we are flush with cash and jolly as heck and years we are depressed for whatever reason.
You can do your level best to keep the holidays in the mid-range of stress ...but you are not living in a cave or under a rock. People will gift to your (often without you wanting them to)....they will demand you be jolly, be a good sport and sing along at the office party....the family will EXPECT things from you......even sending a handmade card can get expensive. The one thing that is very difficult is to get people to just let you be alone that holiday in particular .
It is both a good thing - and a bad thing - that people just will NOT let anyone sit alone for that one day. Even for introverts it is both a good thing and a bad thing.
So......let's take a positive spin with this thing for anyone that needs a push that direction.
Picking no more than two things....why are you GRATEFUL for the holiday season (it can be you love seeing the Grinch featured on so many items.) What ever you pick - it has to be stated in the positive.
von
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9 minutes ago, mererdog said:
What we remember is a bit irrelevant. An anonymous donation is still a donation. A forgotten debt is still a debt. Our name can be lost and our legacy can still remain.
It works like an inheritance, which is where the term " legacy" comes from. Some parts of an estate will usually be more appreciated than others. Over time, it may be forgotten that a specific item was ever a part of an estate.
To the specifics of McCain, he inherited suffering from his captors. That is a part of their legacy. He took what he inherited from them and made something new to pass on to others. That will be a part of his legacy.
Yet there is more to any man than that, and a man who lives that long will have necessarily left behind a very complicated estate. One word he said to one person at just the right time may have had a more real and lasting impact on the world than any of the stuff that makes him famous. So a total and accurate accounting of his legacy is impossible for us. We just sort of look at the parts that stand out as important to us and act as if that is all there is.
Humans, as a group, do not deal well with complexity or ignorance. So we pretend things are simple, and we pretend we know.
I am repeating the entire quote as it has heft and worth. I appreciate your not giving up on me.
We sometimes DO pretend things are simple. And sometimes we attempt to make the more complex than they are....as all of us rationalize to our own point of comfort. We are not necessarily pretending. It is the reality we can work with sometimes.
I appreciate the points you raised. They have much worth.
von
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Coming from a rather large family (or at least large for the income my folks had to work with) - the holidays were sort of stressful. We KNEW not to ask Santa for anything over $10....
Once my mother got a post-holiday thank you note for the lovely inclusion of $20 in the box of chocolate covered cherries she gave to one of dad's co-workers. Two problems. The box of candy was a re-gift - they had no money to buy gifts for co-workers and they scrambled when someone came to the door and mom...just took a gift she had received (the candy) and re-wrapped it to cover the moment. Probably because they could not afford to give anything - giving something was important to her - I guess. She would not have felt that way later in life I am sure but she was a young mother trying to do too much with too little
We would have loved the candy. She needed the twenty bucks she did not know was in the bottom layer of the box. She was saving it and never looked beyond it was the best treat that could have been for us....so she gave it away in a moment's haste and later regretted it big time.
How do you feel about re-gifting if the gift is new - nice - and something you will NEVER use? What is you know someone who would really, really LOVE it...okay to let them have it ? Tell them it is a regift? Wrap and save yourself money? The money you saved then becomes your gift?
How do you feel about people giving you gifts that require you spend more money? A painting that you might well WANT to select a frame matching your taste ...but there is no money to buy frames so it sits in the closet? Some sort of coupon book that only works if you spend money to go out to eat...the savings is great - if you have the funds to begin with..... Plants that need watering when you travel? Of heaven forbid surprising you with a puppy?
When you are low on funds......(like broke) .....what would you like OTHERS consider for your holiday happiness?
von
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I am going to propose a series of topics....and separate them so the post is not too lengthy.
Please feel free to pick and choose as your individual convictions, belief system or opinion warrants.
Grab Bag topic: Gift giving......something you do for others or the truth be told something we most often do for ourselves?
...thoughts to consider...if it is FOR them....why put a name tag on the gift......they love it just as much if Santa brought it, no?
....because THEY need to thank someone...or because you want credit for giving it?
....do you ever find yourself taking the spotlight telling everyone the great lengths to which you went to find this perfect gift?
....is it just fun as heck to tell everyone the GREAT bargain price you scooped this thing up for?
Just a kick start string of ideas about gift giving.....
von
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Since my far-flung family will not be together.... we always try and have one thing we ALL do....a “theme” item for lack of a better word... we photograph “ our” family of the day (whoever is gathered at our various homes) and send it to the other siblings to have a together moment of sorts. THIS YEAR....we will each be including a Thank You Puerto Rico poster.... as the kindness of the citizens there saved our eldest brother ( who resides there as a permanent resident).....
Bt happenstance in enlisting any help possible for news.... all of us siblings...independent of one another.... visited with transplant Puerto Rican’s (all of whom did what they could to help us)......in my case a couple young people at a nearby military base and three university students stuck in the dorms over the holidays....you better believe we are inviting them to our homes.... i’m Thinking our annual photo this year might feature a flag or two from Puerto Rico
von
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25 minutes ago, mererdog said:
Of course. However, trauma can fundamentally change us. Not always, or even necessarily often. But it can
And when it does, the universe is robbed of the chance to know the person we could have been.
Innocence doesn't grow back. And that is true both for victim and victimizer.
Agreed.
Whew...got that one
von
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13 minutes ago, mererdog said:
It is. Everything you do that effects others is a part of your legacy. You may give pain to one and joy to another. You may create one day and destroy the next. Each act leaves a mark, and those marks spell out your legacy. We are not simple creatures, and that is reflected in the complexity of our legacies.
This point is actually what I meant to illustrate when I brought up my wife's mother. The good we do does not make the bad we do go away. Pencils have erasers but life does not, you know? We can repent, reform, and even attempt recompense, but we can't turn back the clock.
I agree. Up to a point.
Every action has a consequence. Not every imprint becomes a memory.
John McCaines legacy is not the fact he was a prisoner of war. It is a fact that changed him and the trajectory of his life.... but it is the fiber of his character that we remember
Or maybe I am still not getting it... you have helped me before. I have faith you’ll somehow turn the light on for me
von
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2 hours ago, mererdog said:
If I take that beauty and crap on it, destroying your legacy becomes part of my legacy.
Hmmm. Whatever the trauma. It does not define us necessarily. It impacts us....it definitely pains us and we are changed often because of it. We do not forget. Again I admire your wife for being able to see any humanity with her mother in such a horrible circumstance. It is to her credit.
One of my sisters was violently raped and left for dead. She spent weeks in the hospital. Years repairing her dental work. And more than a decade keeping this as a secret. She lived in another state and did not see the family till most of her face was normal enough again. I was the only one in the family who knew.
It took time....rehab....implants....lots of counseling sessions ....surgery ..and a hell of a lot more courage than I have for her to regain her “center”....
That rapist certainly made life itself far more difficult for my sister...it ended her promising career in one field..and she is scarred with the far reaching consequences of his action. In her view -the considerable physical and emotional trauma which she still battles daily do not define any part of her beyond the word survivor.
His violent and ugly self will not taint her legacy in any way. Her survival is no longer a secret. One day she stood up publicly and told only enough to be credible - that she knew first hand what a survivor goes thru. She has raised an enormous sum of money... founded two major orgaizations to help others and no one is going to crap on her legacy.....
The rapist might have found his way and become a decent human being - we don’t know any more than we know your wife’s mother’s story. I do know other than the time it took to rape & attempt to kill my sister....however many minutes that was.....that is the ONLY lasting connection. His legacy good or bad is of his own making. What he did to my sister may or may not be part of his legacy. I have no way to know.
My sister’s legacy is of her own making as well. Neither of them defines the history of the other.
She sure as hell would never thank him. She would prosecute him to the full extent if the law if she could have ever had that chance. But his impact forcing so much to change in her future is not who she is now. Her success is all about her.
She took control of her life... looked at the choices left to her and walked away and onto a new road. Scary, painful, unplanned, but enormously rewarding. He took much from her. She thrives because of who she is.... changed forever because of the rape.... but the legacy of her footprint is not tainted by him.... he was a trauma to overcome. A big one. But he only is a measure of her strength to win in spite of obstacles. ( she would likely add like everyone else). Like your wife - I find both survivors to be amazing people
von
The non(s) have it - or do they?
in Freethought, Secularism, No Religion
Posted
....or the reverse would also be true....you are penalized for not joining up....
thx for the clarification
von