Posts posted by VonNoble
Is the motto of ULC sufficient?
Is doing right enough?
7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
We would not ask what to replace cancer. Sanity and humanity would replace religion.
Having religious beliefs is not a disease nor is it indicative of sanity or lack thereof, perhaps.
Disease is a reflection of a biologic evolution not a spiritual organization, perhaps.
Does the absence of religion automatically/instantly change the need of large swaths of humans
across the globe to be gather for some form of group spirituality?
Considering, the world is not comprised by an entire introverted population, there are those
who feel most comfortable in work/life settings with others. They are recharged by
gathering socially for all aspects of their life. What serves as their vehicle for recharging
The negative connotation is that religion placates the less learned into submission.
The skeptical view indicates religion is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing
doing the same old greed and real estate grabs and power plays that turn human kind
to the dark side. The more traditional versions promote judgments and a black and
white world of rights and wrongs and good vs. evil. It fosters a mindset of like me
or inferior to me.
The hunch for some, is there is no longer a need for religion. Faith and hope maybe still
of use but the value of religion long ago died but the remnants of the faithful are fighting
even though even the find explaining it borders on credibility.
If organized religion gets shelved, what replaces it?
Is the offset to walking and resulting knee pain...less health issues in other areas?
I recently found out one can "chair walk" and gain much of the same benefit.
Additionally you can chair run, chair Zumba, chair dance and chair yoga.
In fact, just to see if it was possible - last summer I signed up for a virtual marathon.
I did the distance by moving my arms and lets while sitting. My hear rate was
high enough to be huffing, puffing and sweating as per usual.
With the virtual marathon - chair version - I discovered MANY international
"regular marathons" permit a multi-day virtual option to include those who are
staying active but not quite on par with their younger years.
I gotta admit it WAS a challenge. But cool for me to compete and be times
right along with everyone else.
On 12/8/2022 at 8:07 AM, RevBogovac said:
Yes, that does tend to make life… interesting… and meaningful…
But also more challenging (to follow the path of the Buddha). Let me illustrate; I have been in (several) severe motor accidents (having been hospitalized, operated and rehabilitated) and in war (two times; been shot at/shelled/bombed over, threatened to be butchered [with a “Rambo”-knife), had a gun cocked and put on my forehead), but I have never, EVER been (even close to) as worried as since my first child was born into my hands (literally).
As a (team-) lead I thought I understood my reports who had children. I did not. It’s a cliché, but you really have to live through it to understand.
How does one “releas[-e] the transitory and understand[…] that everything passes” if it concerns their children?
(PS Wife I can understand, but children…)
I appreciate this posting. That would be, on surface, a most difficult reality.
I have never had biologic children. So I am not qualified to address this at some level.
I have raised foster children. I have taken in siblings children when life was spinning out of control
for the kid, the sibling or both.
The children in my care (both blood relatives and non-blood relatives) were taken away from horrid
home situations. Often abused kids. Kids born to addicted parents. Scarred children. I was not
able to have kids of my own. I concluded quickly a few that were able to birth them were not as able
to actually raise them, quite often for very understandable reasons. So, I am not convinced that it is
completely a given that natural parents understand the responsibility of parenting and non parents are
completely void of understanding.
Since I was financially able to provide resources beyond the scope of normal foster parent allocations
to the children, my ego would like to believe I made a difference. Part of that ego driven action
including the lunacy that I could protect them at all times, or that they had the desire to be all I could
see they could be, or that they had the same values or vision of the future or even remotely the
same norms of what life should be...
I think lots of parents act towards great futures, or believe they have a super safe and bright future
available to every child - however not every child agrees with the desires the parents are yoking upon
them from birth.
They don't' like some foods, they shun parental notions of order, they are not born with the same
hopes or humors or wants. So the best plans of the parents including truckloads of pressures to
control the outside world... are (often) parental planning, in reality, beyond parent's control.
Yes, there are fears and dangers. There are also kids who aren't going to appreciate your providing
things that are of no concern to them. You want to protect them. (one construct) They don't agree
with your version of protection. A different construct.
At age two - you physically can control much. At what age is that not the case.
At what age to you prepare them (and yourself) to shift some of that responsibility.
How long is that transition period. How much of your conclusions and skills are
helpful, and when are you simply failing at letting them take risks and fail - which
too is part of growing.
I am NOT implying any lines in the sand or any parent I have ever met fails.
I am very much implying that we sometimes WANT to do more in life than is possible
We construct demands beyond what is a reality then struggle to realize we are not wired, able, or
willing to admit we need help, we are not so great as we want to be, or as able to step back when
Certainly I know that has been true for me. That dang ego is ridiculous.
Mine is at least.
On 11/15/2022 at 8:20 AM, RevBogovac said:
Nice summary. Sounds indeed helpful from that perspective.
But the ego wants…
Perhaps, therein is the fulcrum. The mind constructs wants...and the path forward - is to explore the choice of the construct.
At one point the pressure of my job was alarming. I got paid a great deal of money. I had zero financial worries. However,
it was obvious the long hours, constant demands and fatigue were taking a physical toll. In my mind, each day I would
(mistakenly) tell myself that this would all improve as soon as I nailed down the current five alarm fire, hired more talented
people, got rid of the malcontents or whatever it was my mind was telling me would be the magic elixir to fix life.
My life would be easier or better if the system would change, the government would improve regulations and legislation
and my spouse would stop being so darn pesky.
Wrong. My needs were very simple. My wants and obligations (perceived) were quite large.
My hopes for family members enormous. My desire to help them, the planet, society were MY construct.
Changing the construct of the walls, shifted an opening to filter my thoughts and actions.
Eventually, the wants were far less because my need to control outcomes, to help, to give was reigned in....
The ego might have been building an unsteady bit of walling off.....
On 2/8/2022 at 9:42 AM, Geordon said:
I don't read Rolling Stone (or any magazine, to be honest), but that sounds like something that I would expect to hear from him. That's not a bad thing.
However (and this is something that I have discussed with my Rinzai Zen teacher, Meido Moore roshi at Korinji https://www.korinji.org/teachers) some of the bigger name teachers of Buddhism in the United States (especially the likes of Jon Kabat-ZInn and Alan Watts) are putting forth ideas and processes that are not strictly nor traditionally Buddhism, especially Zen Buddhism.
That's not to say that their teachings are necessarily bad, but they are not Buddhist. Yes, Buddhism is something that has evolved and adapted as it has moved across new cultures, but there are certain things that are fundamental to Buddhism that have to be understood before you can build on it.
I believe your point in well made. I too can see that some Buddhist teachers in the United States have an unintentional (or perhaps deliberate) have a need/proclivity, to spin teaching's through a decidedly western point of view. Good that you mentioned that.
There might be either a supposition that Western vocabulary/values are clarified and familiar and inviting. It could also be argued that diluting teachings is akin to hitting the 'easy button' ...interesting thoughts to the process of understanding.
On 1/29/2022 at 11:37 AM, forester said:
A few years back Rolling Stone interviewed the Dali Lama ( or whoever the face of Buddhism was at the time).
In the interview he said that many monks are choosing to be reborn in the west, mainly to escape the totalitarian censorship taking place in the Tibet region toward anything contrary to stated government censure for the past several decades.
As a result Buddhism has been more decidedly introduced into western thought , the westerners formally being easterners, as it were.
Just an interesting thing related to this thread. I’m sure the interview could be found online if anyones interested. Don’t take my word for it.
This made me hear the song IMAGINE (John Lennon) play softly while reading it........very interesting.
On 11/14/2022 at 8:33 AM, RevBogovac said:
Could you elaborate…?
I would be happy to try to do so.
Prior to my retirement, I participated in local walking events to raise money for charities,
and also the Volkswalk organized events organized throughout the United States.
For me it was never competitive. It was relaxing, enjoying nature, but really just a
relax and escape from the pressures of life. Nothing more.
However, at the invitation of the indigenous peoples of the area, I attended a very different
event. I showed up on time, in my normal walking attire but there were no bib numbers
to attach to my shirt. No water bottles to be had, no energy bars. No sign in table.
However, there were scores of little ones and other silver haired people,and lots of people
who did not look like "running" would be the first word used to describe them.
It was a very, very diverse group. Some wearing expected types of athletic attire, quite
a few wearing anything but athletic attire. And we waited. And we waited and we waited.
We were not told to line up (linearly) to start the event but rather to form a very large circle.
We complied . Someone then let a prayer in a native language. I have no clue which
language as there were people from more than one tribe present. That was followed by
other ritual/traditional goings on...and an introduction or various leaders of different groups.
Are we ready to begin the walk now ? NOT EVEN close.
There was a time for the beginning of the walk on the flyer, we were more than thirty minutes
passed that.....and still in our circle.
The next thing to happen was extremely busy, get the heart pumping exercises. Which we did
for more than (20) minutes. Once we were all sweating in place, by some signal I failed to notice,
the event began. Some running like the wind, some walking quite slowly, all smiling. it seemed
to me there were no groupings, much of the time folks were silent. A few singing occasionally in
a native language. Others chatting with great animation. It was everything and also nothing,.
Along the way, being a slow walker this day, others walked with me briefly, until they passed me
by...gradually arriving to me....and gradually moving beyond me. While with me, along side me
they told their story in a few sentences Not their life story. Just their today story. Their this
moment story. They didn't ask me about mine (grateful of that) - so I listened. Children ran
among, between and were boundless in their activity. They stopped to explore, bring things
back to share with anyone. One handed me a rock of no distinction they skipped away. There
was no reason to explain the gift, I guess. If it was a gift. I don't know why. It didn't matter.
I carried it the rest of the way thinking they might come back for it.
There was no plotted or marked course. I had no idea (other than my watch) how far I
had walked or how long. And eventually we returned to the field where we began. People
went to the vehicles and brought snacks. Some I recognized. Some I was clueless. And
there were water bottles. Warm from the sun. Hot even. No plates. No napkins. No
invitation to join in, although I was certain, no one cared if I did (and obviously no bother
if I did not join in.)
None of it familiar. No one engaged me in discussing spirituality. They simply were as they
have always been. I was welcome to join. To enjoy silence. To observe. To learn to "be"
or to "do" at my own pace. If I initiated conversation or asked questions there was usually a
very long pause between us, but the response were friendly, deliberate but not, at first, easily
understood by me.
I left completely unsure of what the heck had transpired.
In actuality in subsequent meetings online with a couple of the regular attendees, I was
encourage to take the same steps on my own walks. To modify what I had experienced,
what had perplexed me, and allow the walk time to just let my thoughts percolate.
Not being FROM this approach, I did not really experience the same thing I could CLEARLY
see was happening around me. Over time, I realized there was a different understanding
of walking in nature. To me there were trees, cactus, sky, sun, breeze, earth, sand, others.
To them, it slowly came to me, these were all one. There were no labels, no distinctions, no
separation. The perimeters I viewed as "taking a walk" were not present. We walked. We
all walked in the classic sense the word you would use in a dictionary. I might even muster
saying i would pray/meditate while moving my arms and legs.
But that would be different. it would be taking your normal spiritual practice on the road as
it were. These people make no distinction of this moment is spiritual or this activity is the
holy time......and that one is regular time.
All moments seem to be spiritual or that is my take away.
And moving at what ever speed is available to you, is necessary. As much as breathing is
necessary. Very overweight oldsters were lighter on their feet when moving with the group.
The collective energy somehow elevated the community. They are bonded but the group
walk/run movement. It was, actually, healing to them biologically as well as emotionally.
You could see it. You could see it as a way to face mistakes and transgressions and walk
to what only could be described as beauty. In the physical surrounding you and inside of you.
As I became more familiar over the next few months with their practices, the prayers seem
to note beauty is life, life is beauty. If you disturb it, you just need to move through it more,
faster, ...soak it in and revive through moving, smelling, hearing, even hearing silence. You
just become part of the ever moving ever changing scenery from then to now and push
yourself forward, each move time replenishing, refreshing, forgiving, centering, elevating.
It is difficult to explain which is why this is so verbose. I'm wondering if someone more
familiar or more learned could help me with summating it more succinctly.
The net result (I still am not part of "it") but i am moving more because of trying to
understand it. I get there is something there. I appreciate that there is, but I am stumped by
what it is exactly.
It seems this practice had value to you, MyanarWultan, so it was useful.
In my recent year long learning session with some people from the Navajo tribe,
I have a passing observation.
The Boy Scouts have been around in the United States for roughly a hundred years.
The inception of programs to make any of us appreciate nature and or the first peoples
inhabiting this land were at one time both, innovative and culturally a gateway moment
Perhaps, with the Native population being largely generous and patient with non-Natives who
truly want to learn and appreciate their culture, perhaps, Native input into these practices
would be a betterment of the original program.
I suspect strongly the original national program and script had to be approved by the
organizational leadership in Irving, Texas at some point. When the Order of the Arrow was
a pilot program, there was scant Native Americans in leadership roles in the organization.
Perhaps, your good experience can be bettered by updating the program, and validating the
Native overtones ....by actually including and acknowledging Native Leadership into
This year I opted to invest some time to see if I can personally appreciate this concept.
After LOTS of time walking (can't run) - I understand this notion more fully.
With the help of the Native Health Initiative...the group Running Medicine was able
to provide me with a much greater understanding of the spiritual side of running/walking.
I am grateful to them for their generous (and unconditional) support.
I NOW appreciate and believe there is merit to setting aside (daily) running/walking as a
Truly this is a new, remarkable and valuable lesson from the Native community.
Walking (or alternative movement if ambulation is not possible)
is healthful. Physically, mentally, socially, psychologically etc.
Is it also of spiritual benefit?
Can is rival religion for self improvement?
Does it contribute to the surrounding community?
How important an appointment with self to MOVE your body?
Do you find it to be meditative?
Do you find more mental agility coincides with physical action?
In continuing this pondering, I am hypothesizing a couple of things.
Buddhism CAN BE/is... simply a philosophy.
As such it allows a more inclusive approach to differing points of view.
Understanding a higher priority than conversion (which is a low to no approach with Buddhism.)
It is not necessary to "save" others.
It is encouraged to recognize interdependence of life.
Compassionate though and action towards others; improves you.
Buddhism CAN BE a religion as all foundations/traditions of religious practice are available if desired.
God belief and rituals are optional.
"Buddha" require no belief but rather an encouragement to challenge teachings and teachers.
PRACTICING understanding of self leads to acceptance of both self and others.
Still mulling things around. Sound correct to you?
Observations of others welcome.
On 7/17/2018 at 12:16 PM, mererdog said:
That has not been my experience. I have been told it's just my White Privilege, but my experience is my experience, you know? I get respect from most people without demanding it, and I find that people who only give respect to those who demand it are people whose opinions I don't respect. And while the meek do get eaten, the aggressive tend to grind themselves to dust. It seems to be a toss up as far as who will outlast who.
Personally, I know that I like being nice and I don't like being mean. I mean, I like pretend mean, like insult comedy or practical jokes, but deliberately trying to hurt people always makes me feel bad. Not always right away, but always. I have heard violence likened to crack cocaine. The rush is awesome, but there's always a price to pay.
Insightful. Particularly the "rush" accompanying violence.
BTW, I was surprised to learn you are large in stature.
I already knew you were pretty darn tall/deep in thought.
On 10/24/2021 at 4:43 PM, damnthing said:
It takes no energy to be an atheist whereas it takes a LOT of energy to not be an atheist. One has to decide if there's a god, which god to worship and appease, how much worship is necessary to keep the angry god satisfied. An insecure, needy, prone to violent rage and killing god takes a lot of energy to soothe and keep soothed. Yet people choose to devote so much of their time and life basically paying attention to something that is nonexistent and a subject of delusional episodes and can only, really only be approached through a rock solid state of cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, way less work...no work in fact, to be an atheist. An apatheist is for someone who still feels like they want to leave the door open and are just to....well, apathetic to just slam the door shut and move on with their life.
A refreshing point of view. Thanks for the posting.
On 7/15/2018 at 7:58 PM, Dan56 said:
Just sounds like an Agnostic with an attitude to me .
Sounds like Dan56 offered humor with a smile.
In the early 1990s I had an occasion to meet with a Catholic priest several times in a social setting.
He was a well educated man. And a missionary to Bangladesh for (at that time almost 40 years.)
He died after more than 50-years of working there.
One of many ideas exchanged was, if he had not been born and raised and educated in the
United States, he suspected his religion of choice would be Buddhism. When I raised an eyebrow
he added, of course is very much a faithful Catholic. However, if in his younger days he had
been exposed to Buddhism he would have, perhaps, chosen that for his path.
His other surprising statement is that he studied, as a Catholic priest in his mid-life years with
some Buddhist monks. His conclusion is that Buddhism was compatible with most other
religions. One need not give up any base religion to practice Buddhist philosophy.
He also noted that "Everyone is Buddhist in some way" they just don't realize it - yet"
I have been pondering a good long time about these things.
I suspect the supposition that early exposure influences ones later choices is likely true.
It also seems true that many people of many base religions incorporate some form of or appreciation for
Buddhism right along with other helpful values.
I am still pondering that last point. At heart is everyone, in some fashion - Buddhist in thought or action?
It has come to my attention by way of learned Apache and Navajo teachers - running can be a very spiritual event.
Walking too, has a spiritual component.
I am not referencing a euphoric high effect, though I am told that can happen from running enthusiasts.
I am talking about an actual belief in the power of healing (physically as well as non-physical attributes)
associated and connected with native culture/beliefs.
Would someone more adept at this point of view assist me in explaining it, perhaps with better terminology.
I am neither native, nor a runner so an actual participant might allow the rest of us additional insight
Jonathan H. b. Lobl,
your answer = education
Judgement equal bias.
I thank you both.
When a disaster occurs, and I am unfamiliar with the area, I may run without knowing which way is the safest. In fear, might run along side anyone I assess to look like they know what they are doing.
Short of a disaster where survival could over-ride bias and education.
Are we educated to have bias?
Whom or what drives learned judgment and bias?
Instinctively we assess survival risks, calculate danger and threats.
Laws of society/ culture establish norms.
We evaluate prices, time expenditures, and other people using acquired information and experience filters.
Can judgement be taught?
After completing an upper level entomology class (that was fascinating) (but tough!)... I overheard two of my classmates speculating on insect intelligence.
They are, by sheer numbers, the dominant creatures on planet earth. The have survived, adapted, and thrived longer than other animals. They have proven they can be altruistic, and some live in complex societies.
Are they intelligent?
They are strategic in warfare, brutal in hunting, loyal in colonies, brilliant in engineering, and effective in communications. They can triage wounded members in battle, and haul back likely survivors. They can “mind control” victims, go on raiding parties for slaves, and coerce others to raise their young.
But are they intelligent? Sentient?
11 hours ago, Seeker said:
In terms of atmospherics the two overlap, so it is not generally possible to definitively tell the two apart from a photo of an unknown location.
However... activity during the day (both natural and human) tends to produce a lot of dust, so sunsets are typically redder but more hazy, whereas sunrises are usually clearer and brighter. That means you can often make a good guess as to which is which.
Actually...... that is HELPFUL to know!
Thank you. von
ANYONE see RENT?
I am thinking that has to be better as a live performance, right?
1 hour ago, Pastor Dave said:
I said I'd get back to you von . I've made my opening statement, I still have a little real keyboard time so let's see where I can go with your post. lol haha
Really von? Are you trying to give evolution a little extra time to work? The last time I checked (just now ) the universe was only about 13.8 billion years old.
First my admiration for your continued reasoned and reasonable responses.
2nd... kudos for your gracious handling of the age of the cosmos-I have zero reason to doubt your number... I never looked it up....I took the number from two biology students who sit in front of me (arguing about it after their mid-term).... I took the more conservative number of the two numbers they were tossing about .... I do suspect neither of them got a 100% on the mid-term.... my apologies for being lazy and not actually looking it up. For purposes of the discussion -your number works just fine.
i am familiar with punctuated equalibrium and for me the jury is still out... we share an interest in needing a bit more evidence to accept that as VERY LIKELY.
with continued respect
The purpose of religion
in Freethought, Secularism, No Religion
You and I do not ascribe to a religious affiliation so there is zero letting go required.
For those who are socially oriented, who for example vacation with friends, need a friend to "go running", who have
Oscar watch-parties cuz they don't want to watch alone....they need a social connection for many aspects in life.
I think this is a very good thing. Most of my birth family is comprised of high socials who not only are very fun people,
make life interesting and are often very generous of their time and treasure . I ain't one of them by a long shot. Quite
the other end of the spectrum. But I understand they have a NEED for social interaction. As much as I need to
take breaks from all of it. It is real.
They need group events. For art exercise and quite possibly affirmation of ethical behavior.
At work, we profiled over a thousand workers. All types represented in more than the thousand employees.
I discovered, over a number of years, high socials contribute a great deal to society and productivity.
The production was just as good if hired more of them than it was with fewer of them.
They stopped to chat, annoying non-social people, they planned break room parties, they greeted everyone
if the wanted to be greeted or not...and I clocked it all assuming they were less productive and distracting.
Not true. They come too work looking forward to the social aspect even on a production floor assembling stuff.
They socialize AND get their work done. They need to socialize TO GET their work done,
If religion, as we know it now - vanishes, I believe your prediction ignores their natural tendency does not
lend itself to your life style (possibly, I don't know you that well) or mine.
Therefore, it seems highly unlikely that will occur based on human dynamics and the eclectic bunch of humans we
share the planet with....
If, as you suppose, religion were the only impediment to humans advancing - you might have a point.
Religion is only one entity holding back evolution.
It is not an evil.
It is, however, dying in its current form.
What is likely to replace it, is the question.
Religion, like all institutions - offers as much good as evil.