VonNoble
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Posts posted by VonNoble
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5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
What happens when you get too many professional clergy? Simple truths become complicated -- then they stop being true.
I am finding myself nodding as I read this....
von
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Just now, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
I'm not a Buddhist. I wonder why this bothers me so much. It does.
I can relate. Several years ago when Clueless Git (who is a Buddhist) was posting - I was surprised to learn that there was any (as in history) violence connected with Buddhism. I had some ideal that the monks the world over were peace loving non-voilent entities. And that NONE worshipped the actual dude - Buddha - as anything but an guy with a useful approach to life. If quotes from Buddha about himself are to be believed - he was adamant that he was not a deity.
Yet, somehow - followers somewhere ignored the earliest writing and even the oral traditions and took it in a new direction. In a somewhat interesting side note - - - none of Shakespeare's plays that we have now were written by Shakespeare. Two men who were his contemporaries started interviewing all of the actors from Shakespeare's theater (seven years after Shakespeare's death) and they all collaborated with their various speaking parts as recalled by the actors.....and what we have now is their collection. The did use some scraps and bits of scripts and quartos that survived....but the plays as we know them - were not wholly recorded by Shakespeare. They, like many other things - were compiled after is death.
Too with Buddhism.....less than 100 years after his death...while followers trained by "the" Buddha were still alive and able - the records of Buddha's message started to be recorded.....and yet - even though it is clearly stated (as mentioned above) that Buddha was NOT a god ...fringe groups splinter off.
Buddha expressly did not WANT his teachings to be recorded. He believed the message should remain simple enough to remember by anyone one any where. Practical guy in that regard.
I dunno if any of that helps. Maybe not.
von
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16 hours ago, ULCneo said:
I find that amusing. Someone has obviously been legally misinformed. Its amazing how many people don't know that Churches are NOT subject to the provisions of copyright law due to the separation clause.
I ran this by the attorney representing our church for the past ten years. He was amused too. He told me if there is every a copyright usage question re: the church to call him immediately as there are many instances where we would be required to seek permission before usage of copyrighted material.....then he reminded me free legal advise is worth the price. He has an excellent sense of humor - especially for an attorney. von
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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't know that things in the Buddhist world had degenerated that far.
In the vast majority of instances it is NOT AT ALL extreme...so you observations are largely valid. In the vast majority of instances it is as it has always been.
But you will notice in Myanmar for example - there is an increasing violent conflict between Buddhists and Muslims (some of it blamed on ethnicity, some blamed on nationalism, some blamed on religious intolerance)...and so it goes...which is a bit aside of the original point here...
some sects of Buddhism are exactly as mererdog explained it.
von
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34 minutes ago, Dan56 said:
Yes, the choice is either Creationism or Accidentalism ... I personally find the complexity of all that exist to be an impossible accident. There can't be an explanation for a Big Bang unless it demonstrates a cause, and since none exist, we're back to square one "God". Here's a semi-interesting 6 minute clip; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZLzLVAUJiU
Thanks for sharing info. Information exchange is good.
I remain QUITE convinced evolution is not an accident. As noted the old understanding of the Big Bang might have had gaps that the current and credible research allows for plausible explanations and probably inching forward of proof. So we differ (again) on the conclusion of the evidence. You will hold (and should) to the explanation of God. I would not try an sway you. Your belief is working for you! You do not require MY opinion of things to have a decent and moral life.
I find it important to note - we agree in large part on the code by which we live. That allows for tolerance and respect.
I am okay with more than one right way to have a moral society.
von
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16 minutes ago, mererdog said:
That is only true for some forms of Buddhism. There are Buddhists who consider Buddhas to be divine figures capable of answering prayers and getting people into an afterlife paradise. In that context, it would matter whether or not any specific Buddha existed.
I second that.
As a philosophical way to approach things I find Buddhism has much to offer. As a religion it is as splintered as any other. And for the sects you noted ....the point you make can launch incivility as fast as a match if you say otherwise.
von
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9 hours ago, ULCneo said:
With translation, your always going to slightly gain or loose, by the nature of what translation is, where the languages don't exactly line up.
This bemuses me.
von
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6 hours ago, Dan56 said:
Perhaps your looking for the sensational, when the evidence of creation is all around you, and in that sense, a tree itself is a miracle when you consider the million of things that had to happen for it to exist.
Dan56,
Again.... you post is helpful.
Thank you. From my belief your calm and pleasant willingness to discuss this validates you have read the book and got something out of what you read. Not only to support your growing faith but also it affects how you represent the sacred.
i have zero difficulty experiencing wonder in nature. Only , for me, it points to evolution that is still unfolding. None of proves that a Supreme Being was involved. In fact the most plausible explations for the Big Bang are just beginning to be be explored.
Of course- for a person of faith- none of this works as a reasonable answer... and I accept that.
Thank you for a gentle response that explains nicely the chasm. We have the same appreciation and sense of wonder....we merely attribute the origin to different sources.
It would seem one version takes place in a much longer time frame....converging proof from several areas of science pointing to probable connecting points and facts.
The other is an inspiring (to me) document... written by more than one author.... gathered & translated several more times....by several authors. It does not make it less valuable as a literary document full of excellent moral lessons!
It is woth reading. More than once. And we can sit in wonder under the same tree and appreciate the lessons. We can both improve for having read the book. We can part and live very similar lives by a very similar code of conduct. We really, for all external purposes would not be seen as very different.
Unless some third part jumps in and says one of us ( for our belief or lack of it) one of us needs to have our head lopped off or get the heck out of the country and forfeit all we have worked for....or accept a lesser position in society...until that dunderhead gets control.... life is good and we both enjoy having way more than enough. And the right to share ideas freely
von
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13 hours ago, ULCneo said:
and your point is what, exactly? Because you apparently don't have a point with that total mess.
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Hmmmm...I was just thinking much as I learn a bit from each interaction.... this likely true for kids? ( I am guessing there)....I frightened myself when I thought about what I see and here in a typical day, because I adults ought not push these images and words and negativity with such force on children.... maybe the enemie of the future is of our own making?
von
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This might qualify as the dumbest question I have asked (lets not put that to a vote)
however, I just got to wondering about Halloween and stupidity.
Is this about the worst time of year for Wiccans to put out verbal stupid fires around them?
Does it get exhaustive? Or is just something you ignore? Or you just don't hear anything
about "witches" etc. that irks you about now?
von
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On 10/23/2017 at 2:15 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
They walked away from me. All of them. Just lucky, I guess.
ya know....I have found that to be VERY true.....good for you for
seeing it for what it is....
von
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3 hours ago, cuchulain said:
She's good. Everything went well, I suppose it's a fairly common surgery.
.gif ":thumbu:")
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1 hour ago, cuchulain said:
We were thrown out of his house one week after my daughter had brain surgery and two weeks before Christmas.
I didn't talk to him again.
Again.....for your own sanity - sometimes it is smarter (and in this case way better) to get away from the most toxic members of our families.
I cannot begin to fully appreciate the horror of all of this. I am sorry it happened. No matter the circumstance. I am sorry. BTW, how is your daughter today?
von
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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Interesting perspective. When I was 21, my parents divorced. It had been a miserable marriage and a wretched divorce. I sided with my mother. My father's extended family -- my loving family -- exiled me.
Screw them all. It's better to be alone, than to be with them.
6 hours ago, VonNoble said:For your own sanity sometimes it is smarter to just walk away from the most toxic members.
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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Isn't this how families stay together, without flying apart? You let things go -- and move on.
... perhaps as there is truth in that..
But also not
Some members of my family have not spoken for years at a time. Some if my in-laws are still not speaking. Over our 45 year marriage both of us have served as peacemaker and negotiator to family enemies. Often a condition of ever coming to the table to discuss it is a demand from someone that they hear an apology
For your own sanity sometimes it is smarter to just walk away from the most toxic members. But sadly too, years are lost over a simple misunderstanding. Getting either side to listen can be next to impossible with a simple I am sorry as the key to fixing it.
Sadly it it has happened that family members die sure the are right.... and die alone because of the need to be right
von
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On 9/22/2017 at 5:13 PM, Songster said:
The more I this about this subject, the more I think that forgiving oneself may be the hardest to do....
Especially when one has "reasoned" his way into committing an act that would be regretted by any individual capable of honest self-analysis....
Like you, I gave this some additional thought.
If we need forgiveness from another - it would make our happiness dependent on getting it, maybe.
It seems like it is possible to choose our own reaction to things - so maybe if we can forgive ourselves (as you note: not the easiest thing to accomplish) but if we can and do....maybe seeking forgiveness is not all that important.
hmmmmm...is it possible to make amends without seeking forgiveness, I wonder?
von
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Pastor Dave,
Thank you....I totally enjoyed it.
von
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On 10/19/2017 at 3:52 PM, ULCneo said:
You should probably study your basic history concerning the writing in question before commenting, as I find your ignorance of the subject matter bemusing.
On 10/20/2017 at 8:37 AM, VonNoble said:We learn from what is said (and how it is said) - what is omitted, what is repeated like a broken record, who rises to the occasion, who never apologizes....
von
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Another reason for live performance to inch ahead....interaction with the audience! I jUst attended a theater performance for children. No film could have revved up the kids like the actors just prior to the opening curtain. Using fast action, quickly learned little songs and stand-up-sit-down, dance-in-place, clap-like-me, stomp-like-me...games the children loved the show before the thrill of seeing live theater even began. I've never seen that happen to warm kids up at a Disney film
Kids of all ages (me included) were smiling the whole 55 minutes of the production. What a treat for the kids. And an even bigger treat for those who were allowed to see it through their eyes....
von
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4 hours ago, Key said:
Even on tip toes?
Can't recall ever being measured " on tip toes"....
...but I know I am no where near six feet in bare feet.....not to be confused with bear feet or bear feat von
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2 hours ago, Dan56 said:
There are no original manuscripts of anything thousands of years old..
According to a first blush ask on Google: The oldest piece of writing on paper is from around 4600 years ago. That cite continues with other written hymns in sanskrit dating back to somewhere around 1500 BC.....so they sort of do - not that it has much impact on the topic or your very valid other points.
2 hours ago, Dan56 said:The bottom line for me is that nothing can be disproved. People look for proof that its true, but have zero evidence that it isn't true. So, a person is either convinced that Christ rose from the grave, or they concoct a reason of why it didn't happen, despite hundreds of witnesses and no official explanation or record to the contrary.
This concept is not limited to Christ rising from the dead - it also applies to the existence of Christ. You are correct. There is zero evidence he did not exist.
2 hours ago, Dan56 said:Its impossible to write a single paragraph on a message board to convince anyone of anything, but each must weigh the culmination of evidence to reach their own conclusion.
Agreed.
We should each reach our own conclusions.....
Unfortunately far too many clergy - of more than one religion - INSIST that is not the way to go. And millions of followers do not allow that one simple truth to prevail. They believe it is their DUTY to convert (willingly if possible) (violently if they meet resistance.)
I find it incomprehensible for someone to use a book as a weapon because of its heft alone. most sacred texts can be splendid tools for a better life for a us all. But NOT unread. Unread it is just another blunt force instrument....
Dan I thank you for a very well positioned response in the middle of the bridge of understanding. As has often happened in the past - your willingness to come half way over is helpful and also offers some hope.
von
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51 minutes ago, cuchulain said:
It was not intended to be any more than an observation that we are all ignorant of the original manuscripts of the bible, since they haven't been found. Apologies if it came off negatively towards someone in particular.
Thx for the clarification.... sometimes I am slow on the uptake. Your explanation makes sense now that I read it again in that context. Your point is valid and much appreciated
von
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1 hour ago, cuchulain said:
my ignorance may be there. but what of the ignorance of the masses of people who know even less, even though God allegedly wants them to understand his perfect message? why, if you can, wouldn't you make your message clear for everyone?
I too have wondered this for a very long time.
Why in the world did the divine being need the message recorded at all? An eternal being creating worshipers could easily have installed the message in the hardwiring or something. If you did have to have "go between" people retelling the message because for some reason I can not comprehend. Why as the maker of all things - would you not just keep the message clear and simple so imperfect creations would be able to do what you wish them to do?
If you give them freewill to make it a matter of choice (or some sort of proving ground) then why make reading a big long tomb as the ultimate and only way to know the rules and penalties.
I am fairly certain all of this ends in the word faith. Things that can be explained are explained. Anything that is a jump in logic or a disconnect of reason or an impossibility to science is a matter of faith.
And for those who find this way helpful - so be it.....I know a large number of believers who are really decent and kind people so it is working for them. I am happy it is - it makes the world better to have joyous, nice and kind people however they get to that place.
But I have often pondered the need for the book at all. Equally moral people - living to the same standards in life - some have never a seen a book much less this book - and still - they live exemplary lives. Fascinating point you raised.von
Enemies
in Philosophy & Theory
Posted
Thanks for the support....
I KNOW the attorney and KNOW the attorney's credential.
I am very comfortable trusting that particular attorney.
von