VonNoble
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Posts posted by VonNoble
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I am grateful this Forum exists. There are things you just cannot discuss with friends and family.
So i am VERTY grateful to have this place and the support offered here...it has helped me over some rough patches for almost fifteen years.
I am grateful I have been allowed to live this long. Bumps, blemishes, challenges, warts, stinking moments included. The best thing is the OPPOSITE moments were far more frequent, the laughs, kindness and fun of life happens more.
von
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On 12/14/2017 at 9:04 AM, mark 45 said:
or do what you feel is right and ignore the stupid stuff.
.gif ":thumbu:")
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On 12/14/2017 at 9:10 AM, mark 45 said:
i could leave a detailed will the size of most encyclopedias(remember those?)and my heirs still wouldn't get it right.or i could just leave instructions and have everything sold,and there would still be infighting and stupidity in abundance.
i may just sell everything and leave $1 to each of them and say"fight now".
Your family sounds so very normal.
Before retiring from the church I was asked to speak at a bunch of funerals. LOTS. At times it seemed like a full time job.
I was honored to do so. BUT......in doing SO MANY....I certainly did see way more than half the time there were distribution issues rising before the funeral had ended.
As the minister I was sometimes at the funeral home when the family gathered to write the obit....when they selected the coffins or urns.....at the vigils the night before - and I heard plenty of angst, worry, scheming and griping about STUFF.
We just went through this process....moving out of state and into a very small (but comfy) place. In the process we gleefully ridded ourselves of about 80% of our possessions. Paying people when necessary to haul it away. I think it is a VERY good custom they have developed in Scandinavia. I only wish I had grown up sooner and not anticipated that anyone would want things. They don't. They really don't.
They fight over it - I suspect more often - because they don't want someone else to have it.
Which is different than actually wanting it.
Do you see it that way with the kids?
von
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On 12/15/2017 at 5:31 PM, mark 45 said:
when i was much younger.then i grew up.
...good answer
I am familiar with the text book definitions of the word.....but as a practical matter I am trying to distinguish "the feeling"
or the differentiation of the feelings......between wonder/awe (and reverence)
The confusion may be only in my understanding or experience of the words. I don't know. If they are blurred in my mind (which is exactly which) - the text book definitions are not doing all that much to help me determine a distinct difference. Maybe there is none?
Any insight there would be appreciated.
von
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4 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Von:
A few more thoughts before I drop it.
At this point, I largely use Atheist and Agnostic interchangeably. I don't care about the semantics the way I used too. It's mostly about my mood.
I mostly use Agnostic when I don't feel like arguing. Agnostic drags me into fewer silly arguments. I enjoy talking. I've come to hate arguing.
There are times when I need to take a stand. I will be nice for now and not say when those times are. That's when I say Atheist.
More and more, I use Apatheist.
People do get hot over their labels and definitions. Most of the time, I don't care any more. Most of the time. Now and then -- someone finds the deep buttons. And they press them. Then, I care, for a brief time. Such is life.
I applaud that approach... choosing your battles is surely a form of wisdom
von
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9 minutes ago, Sergio said:
Es cierto que somos seres autónomos y somos los únicos que podemos hacernos felices o no. Pero no hay que olvidar que no estamos solos en el mundo y por lo tanto los actos y en ocasiones la sola presencia de otras personas influye en nuestras vidas.
It is true that we are autonomous beings and we are the only ones that can make us happy or not. But we must not forget that we are not alone in the world and therefore acts and sometimes the mere presence of other people influences our lives.
Biendvenido al foro! Thank you for your post.
von
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On 12/15/2017 at 5:13 AM, VonNoble said:
I too believe to revere oneself is very important - however - there is something about saying so out loud that
causes people to look askance a bit....so I do not say such things out loud.
von
Jonathan H.B. Lobl.....in the above comment I was noting it more as people thinking you are an egomaniac or something along those lines. That reaction might come back even stronger if the listeners are practitioners who have some heightened alarm bells for those who lack humility (as they understand the term.)
On 12/15/2017 at 5:16 AM, VonNoble said:That version of things was comforting to me over the meddling and demanding version I had heretofore so often encountered.
gods minding their own business and allowing me to go forth in peace was a refreshing and comforting idea.
von
My limited (admittedly) knowledge of mythology came largely from doing translations from an upper level Latin class in high school. Our teacher loved Roman Mythology and we loved getting her off topic. So having her wander off topic by encouraging her to tell us stories about the Roman gods (and the awful things they did when intervening in the lives of humans) was pretty much all I know about. I did take a course in college focusing on the mythology of Native Americans but there was nothing anywhere in that class that resembled those punitive Roman gods I had heard about it high school. The Native American spirituality seemed a FAR MORE comfortable approach.
I have always (in my adult life) been on the fence about atheism. While I come from a mixed-marriage home (liberal non-practicing Jewish & equally liberal but practicing - Catholic upbringing) (making both parents deists) - thankfully they never imposed their viewpoint upon us. So I sort of knew the Judeo-Christian version of God growing up. WE (the kids) were never told any of it was true or necessary. In fact, they ENCOURAGED us to go explore all options. Most of my siblings chose to stay within the confines of more conventional options. One of my sister's is an Episcopal clergy. One a conservative Catholic who sent her kids to Catholic schools. (incidentally none of her kids practice Catholicism.) One a loosely practicing Jew. And the rest a hodge-podge of this and that .....sort of floating towards whatever works for them - this year. NONE are exclusive in their views. None are fundamentalist anythings. And all, coming from the strong influence of my mother - all are very accepting of all other views. Family gatherings are the United Nations of spiritual gatherings.
in my youth - I went to church with friends. Pestered all adults about their beliefs. Took all sorts of classes from all sorts of people and institutions. I find my parents gave us a tremendous gift in that liberty. At one point I attended a Christan Bible college and actually that went very well. They were anxious to covert me.....so they explained things at great length without accosting me. My mother was not too happy about that little experiment. She did not believe, as a group, anyone coming out of that building would be inclusive or open minded....but in typical mother fashion....the only thing she said: "If you decide to be a Christian - be a very good one and do it with your whole heart. Whatever you decide to do - do it with your whole heart." However, their group effort there - while informed and friendly - did not have answers in keeping with what I already knew to be true (they did not match timelines of science that I had accepted, for example.) And the stories were riddled with holes and contradictions. Even then I knew a sales job when one was being shoved at me. I opted not to buy what they were selling - but the sendoff was amicable. I am pretty sure they felt they did their best to plant seeds of faith in there somewhere. So far that has not panned out.
As a minister of an all inclusive church....I was challenged to "discussions" (that were often more like debates) by fervent believers of one stripe or another. When a fundamentalist-type interjected into a discussion an accusation that I was an atheist! - hurling it with the force implying it was intended as an insult.....I simply answered with: "If you intended that as an insult - it wasn't...I am accepting that as a compliment."
I have read quite a few books about atheism. Even though he takes a great deal of heat..... Richard Dawkins is a person of interest to me. Not only do I have copies of his books that are well worn......I have purchases copies for others. In fact, we bought a dozen for our church library and one of our services we invited the most prominent atheist I could find in our area to come and speak. It was a VERY well received event.
Most labels imply or imbue an image to the listener. THEIR idea of the term begins your discussion. I find we backtrack and haggle over the correctness of definitions needlessly. So I avoid labels.
When I have been asked if I believe in god/God....I answer the same every time. " Define God/god."
THAT usually advances our understanding very quickly. If they define god/God in a way that is not remotely feasible to me....it is a quick dash to say - I do not believe in god/God as you know him. Simple and over.
More often that opening facilitates a reasonable exchange of ideas. Understanding, for me, is usually more satisfying that winning.
So, in some instances I might well accept being viewed as an atheist. But it is not a term I would use for a self-description. It is simply too broad a term for it to be helpful in getting to know others or them getting to know me. God is remotely possible depending on the definition. God, by most definitions is - amazingly unlikely and improbable.
von
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9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
The old gods have changes in name and form, but they never quite go away. Mother Nature looks a lot like the Old Earth Goddess. Look around. Lady Luck, Old Man Winter, Father Time, Death -- plenty of others -- still with us. Some of them don't change at all. Cupid is still Cupid.
I had not made the connection to the iconic figures of daily folklore and traditions...but there is a connection so that is helpful to see.
von
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9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Comforting? Maybe you don't know the story of Ragnorock. As I recall it...........
In the first year, it never stops snowing. There is famine.
In the second year, it's still snowing. Famine has been joined by plague.
In the third year, it starts getting bad. The last pitiful remnants of Humanity are surviving by eating each other. There is no other food.
In the fourth year, the Frost Giants attack. The heroes in Valhalla are sent into the battle. Thor and the Mitgard Serpent kill each other. Most of the gods die.
I'm vague about how long this continues. When it's over, the cycle begins anew with two people, a man and a woman, that Father Odhin had stashed away for just such an emergency.
Comfort you say? The old gods were not always comforting. When you're ready, I must tell you about the ancient and venerable Sekhment of Egypt. The lion headed goddess. Now, that's one scary deity.
I had not one clue about the story of Ragnorock....I am not sure I ever heard of it beyond a recent scan of the movie selection.
I thought it was a made up word when I read it. So little did I know.
My notation of comfort began and ended with the reassurance that that table full of imaginary table full of gods chatting was not
interested in humans so much. That version of things was comforting to me over the meddling and demanding version I had
heretofore so often encountered.
gods minding their own business and allowing me to go forth in peace was a refreshing and comforting idea.
von
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15 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:
Most of us revere our selves. That accounts for our survival instinct. Some revere themselves because they know there is no G/god before them or above them.
I am happy to see this answer.
I too believe to revere oneself is very important - however - there is something about saying so out loud that
causes people to look askance a bit....so I do not say such things out loud.
There is somehow a negative take away by some if you say such a thing (that I do not fully understand)
but I DO SEE that reaction.
von
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2 hours ago, mark 45 said:
the video i alluded to ended with a "human women"explaining that humanism was becoming the dominant belief system(religion?)in the world.therefore the need for deities was becoming less and less.
or as jonathon said,they have other concerns than us
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Thank you. I too see the numbers moving from religion per se.....I am curious if reverence exists independent of religion?
Again thanks for your input.
von
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5 minutes ago, Dan56 said:
No... Its not a ritual at all, nor an emotionally charged feeling, but a reverence permanently ingrained in my persona.
Forgive the question if it is impertinent or foolish.....I am trying to understand.
your response tracks perfectly with my understanding if the term as I learned it years ago.
if it is a “ permanent “ or constant ... or given feeling... however improperly phrased this may be...does it at any point raise up? I can only guess if the word awe or something like that kicks in from time to time?
thank you
von
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2 hours ago, mark 45 said:
yes von it is.but for me,reverence has to many strings attached.respect is something someone has earned.
now are there things in the universe that cause me to stop and wonder?everyday.
I understand and appreciate your candor. In your past did you one time feel reverence?
von
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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Norse, Greek, Egyptian, etc mythology is complex stuff. Of course the gods talk with each other. They have whole, complex cultures of their own.
Of course, the gods in these mythologies interact with the Human world. That does not mean that they are intent on controlling or changing us. Only that they interact.
In Norse mythology, they are gathering the Human heroes to Valhalla, where they are in reserve for the final battle at Ragnorock. The end of the world. Thor and Loki have adventures in the Human realm -- and other places. None of them are trying to control us. They have their own lives and their own concerns. The Norse gods are much more concerned with the Frost Giants than they are with us.
Well now that does put it a wider view... thank you.
Mosty, what I know about mythology is limited.... but it seemed gods were either daming people for all eternity for some slight or offense.... punishing people hideously.... sending them off on epic journeys or battles....or some how having secmx with virgins or comely maidens to birth half human kids.....
Being more concerned with frost giants or even one another is comforting. The seemed to be mucking around in our freewill a bit too much for my comfort
... it is better to know they have other toys and interests.
von
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I am considering leaving the statue out there on the wall, in full view AFTER the holidays.
If the statue is offensive. It ought not be. At least it ought not be in this country.
If the hat caused the offense - there may be some slice of Buddhism that could take offense - but after careful reflection and research - it would seem that would be a minority opinion. Still if it were a problem for someone routinely having to pass this way (I still have no idea who that woman was or where she lives.....never have seen her again) ....but if there is a chance it would be a problem for someone passing this way - I likely would not put the hat on it again next year.
I can tell you one reason why I would put the hat on again in spite of any hoopla over it. There is one person in the world that means more to me than life itself......and if THAT person is amused by it - that one opinion weighs far more to me than a stranger's or even propriety itself. If that one person most important to me in the world - expressed a bit of happy over this issue - that statue will be out there wearing bunny ears, sunglasses or whatever else brings a smile. I need not be logical (merely legal).... and should it happen it mattered to one important person in my life - that would be all it took.
THAT IS NOT reality - but it would quickly become reality. When (and if) you are handed an expiration date in life - or worse yet someone you care for and NEED is handed an expiration date - it snaps petty nonsense the heck out of your sense of reason. You do what you can every time you can to make the path as comfortable as you can. I am not saying that is the case this year - but I can say with certainty after a few rounds of close calls - that would be the one criteria that would cause me to be FAR less concerned about giving offense.
von
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I read an article on Sunday regarding a Scandinavian custom of "death-cleaning" - which is a very sensible approach to senior-citizenhood.
The custom, as described, is both practical and cathartic. As you hit the mid-sixties - you start ridding yourself of possessions. It is in part a typical declutter process but too, more than that.
You do it systematically. One room at a time. And it is not a light or quick process. You involve friends, families and co-workers - over time. You give (and folks accept) items of value (dollars and or emotions) to those you want to inspire, comfort, delight, or with whom you hold in high esteem and wish a post life connection - - you give specific items and discuss your life and their contribution to it. It was far more involved than I am describing but also a very thoughtful way to reach out and allow others to reach in.....
For many moving into smaller living arrangements causes us to declutter our possessions. For many the age of acquiring yields in retirement to the age of retiring and we get rid of things to fit into our less active future. Some people just keep buying bigger homes rather than declutter. Others start renting storage facilities (and then more of them or larger ones.)
I suspect the Scandinavian approach is a very balanced one. Physically ridding oneself allows a societal reminder that you are hitting the exit ramp but too it reminds those still acquiring - ownership might be a temporary thing. Therefore enjoying it (rather than not noticing) those possessions is possibly enhanced. A reminder life is finite is in play in a positive way. Memories can be cherished a few times around before a deathbed gathering.
Seems like simplification has an impact when you do so from a celebratory sort of detach way.
So if you have too much - and most of us do - do you have a master plan for getting rid of it?
Or is that the heir's problem?
Big garage sale? Big bonfire? Estate sale while you are quite fit and well and can take a trip with the funds?
NOT EVEN ON THE RADAR to assess it.....just enjoying "having" stuff? Retail therapy helps and so does the security of owning stuff and trading it in for better stuff?
Death-cleaning involves the word death and I NEVER think about death? This is a horrible subject and you would never discuss dying because it is depressing?
Lots to think on and maybe discuss.
von
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I am sort of wondering if gods existed and they sat around and chatted one another up (I have no idea why they would do that) - but
if they did.....I am inclined to think that they would conclude - they had very little influence on mankind. Whatever they have done to either inspire or punish mankind seems to be of no avail. In general mankind as a species has not evolved much thus far.
Without some leap in behavior by humankind - the impetus of the gods - (to whatever end they might have hoped) - seems ineffective.
von
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On 12/12/2017 at 9:52 PM, Dan56 said:
For who he is and what he did... Christ, Jesus of course... And that reverence is everyday, not just the start of a new year.
Everyday? Entirely possible.
Does the daily "feeling" include a ritual (specific) that triggers or evokes the feeling?
von
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On 12/12/2017 at 7:07 AM, mark 45 said:
none of the above.now respect is an entirely different ball game.
Really? Nothing in the world causes a sense of reverence?
That is entirely possible so I thank you for the answer.
Reverence beyond religion is possible.
Just a thought.
von
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On 12/12/2017 at 6:12 AM, cuchulain said:
i find it interesting for people to feel reverence on the arbitrary day the calendar changes...its not ingrained enough for me i guess.
Perhaps I did not word that opening the most effectively.
In this society - there seems to be a push to pause and reflect at the end of the year.
For example the media runs programs noting who (of significance in their view) (famous people) died over the last year.
There is the whole new year's resolution (fitness and diet) deluge of stuff at the end of the year. So none of that is necessarily tied to a spiritual component.
However, the triggers of hype around many cause them to stop and pause and think about life. They may not do this formally. But often it causes a moment of reflection. (...it does not require a sudden surge of reverence to be part of all that so if that was the implication I did not do a very good job of explaining it)
I am curious as even the process of going through the holidays which often includes large gatherings with families and friends and too, quiet reflection for many - in all of that - (or even without it) - -- for who or what do you feel reverence. You might feel it any time - or all the time.
So it is not a quick change at the end of the year - it might be more a spiritual housekeeping moment for some.
ANY day of the year - - now even if you know without reflection....for whom or what do you feel reverence.
(hope that clears up the question.....)
von.
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For what or for whom ...do you feel (operative word).....do you feel reverence?
Thx
von
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1 hour ago, nicholson massie said:Hello everyone, Please excuse the nonsequitorial interruption. This is my first time engaging in discussion with my fellow Ulc ministers. If I may, I would like to introduce myself. My name is Cole Massie; I'm an actor, minister, and friend. Ordained on April 10, 2017 by Kevin Andrews, I come here today seeking intelligent and peaceful discussions on any topic you wish. My background is Unitarian Universalism. Are there any ministers or members here who are also Unitarian Universalist? Of course, whether you are Unitarian Universalist or not, I am open to hearing all your opinions.If you have any questions, please let me know. I'm happy to answer any questions you have.Let me be clear; I am not in any way a Unitarian Universalist minister. I apologize for any spelling or grammatical errors.I wish you all the best,your fellow minister,ColepS,My only ordination comes from ULC.
Welcome! We are happy you joined us!
von
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1 hour ago, Brother Kaman said:
Seems to be an exercise in creating the G/gods in our own image once again.
Perhaps...
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It is a nice thought if whatever powers in the cosmos (if they existed) would gathered and somehow opt to make the universe a bit less harsh. Or humans a bit wiser....or kinder....or both
von
Holiday grab bag.....
in Interpath Dialogue, Universal Virtues and Values
Posted
Beyond, "thank you" - I am always at a loss when I receive gifts that are often annoying. I guess "thank you" is all that is required
but that seems to open the door to them doing this a second time. ...or them standing there 1) waiting to be invited in 2) waiting for a return gift even though most know we don't do that - there is this long awkward moment 3) waiting for me to say more than thank you
I am just at a loss each year how to handle such things. I am pretty sure I am really bad at it.
Example: Someone brought me a lovely EXTREMELY LARGE wreath. They cut the pine from high in the mountain, bent it over a frame by hand.....added lovely ornaments and hauled it unexpectedly to my home as a gift. It is hand made - thoughtful and there is no denying they intended it to be a very nice thing. IN TRUTH......I had to go buy a mister (as I was instructed it needs to be misted) - I had to go buy an over the door hanger (wasn't expecting it) .....It is oversized for our door - very heavy ..It was a very nice thing to do (thankfully I am not allergic to pine)......but it required me to go forth and do some more stuff to enjoy it. I think the wreath is nice. I just never wanted such a thing and I am not thrilled by it.......they did go to a lot of work and tried to do a nice thing. It is not something i would want them to do a second time. I am clueless how to be decent and not invite more of the same in the future all at the same time. Thank you seems to be a green light to keep doing stuff.
Example: knowing I battle with my weight.....big time....with the doctor trying to fix some broken systems that regulate metabolism...and knowing that diabetes is also an issue in this house - last night, someone who also knows the medical issues (she is a nurse) and knows we do not do gift giving for the holidays - brought us an enormous box of very expensive chocolates. it is a very high quality gift - but I struggle to appreciate any part of the gesture. Well more plainly put I did not appreciate it at all. I said "thank you " as I refused to blow my stack but underneath that, frustration was welling up in me. NOT a fa la la moment.
Example: Someone gave the brat (and I do mean BRAT) next door a puppy. (I enjoy children and over time we will become friends but currently he is clearly A BRAT) The family just moved into the house - have not had a chance to unpack most of their boxes and I seriously doubt they wanted a puppy before they got settled in. The kid runs wild .....throws stones at animals....and is loud and big for his age.....and I don't think a fragile puppy was a great idea. This "gift" now requires the family to shell out lots more money.....assume a change of schedule to care for a living thing etc. and they were clearly surprised. They did NOT expect this puppy as a gift. Iit is NONE of my business thus far. But if I hear that dog out there crying in freezing temps which are upon us.....or see it abused it will become my business.
I know - you know - kindness need not be thing-based. Frustration with this gift giving mess has baffled me for years. I don't get it.
And because I don't - I am always clumsy handling this time of year.
I AGREE with you re: the rare moments when you find exactly the right gift is special. And you KNOW it. And SEE it.
Both people are happy with the exchange. i don't see that much and surely DO NOT experience it much.
I am flummoxed on how to handle the other kind of thing.
It seems like one big long gripe here - and it might be a vent - but too - I really just do NOT know how to handle it....and it is falling on me this year to be the "front" person far more than usual. I used to just hide ....and go get everyone a drink.
This year I have to be the door opener and greeter....I am very uncomfortable - there must be some secret way to deal with it I never learned. So all I have is a tacit, "thank you" .....mostly I am not inviting them in and it is just not good. There more than a week more of this coming at me......
von