Atwater Vitki

A very deep and "need for thought" proposal there Tsukino. I can, in a very small way, empathize with what you are saying here. As a young child through becoming an adult, I continuously looked at my left ring finger and envisioned it "missing". At 24 years old I had one heck of a doozy motorcycle accident that crushed both hands, feet, broke my pelvis and cracked my head wide open. I spent 5 1/2 months in hospital. The only "noticeable" after effect of that wreck was a one big surgery scar and a couple of other small, barely seen scars and a knee/hip/pelvis that screams in the winter time...like today...coooold!....and my left ring finger is at a permanent bend at the second knuckle. (it often looks like my wedding ring is on a "stump") So was my visions as a kid, this BIID syndrome or a vision of things to come? Yes, according to the very text that some use to say a person is mistaken, "God" does NOT make mistakes. Beings that so many people would choose to say someone is not "right" about their sexuality or gender, they want to use the "Word" both ways. That is not right or fair. I firmly believe that "God" does not make mistakes and it's those who choose to go against His word that are in the wrong. This is why I feel 100% correct in just knowing that the text was written by man, even though it very likely was inspired by God...just too many contradictions for me to wrap my head around its fallibility. Those that can not love another for being just who and what they are, made by "God", have the problem, not the person who feels they are in the wrong skin or feels love for their own gender. Jesus loved everyone for being who they were created as, HE did not pick and choose, so why can't others follow example. If modern day people want to quote the OT about "not laying with"...consider who for and when that was written. Frankly texts outlining how a given people are suppose to live has no application on my life what-so-ever and quite bluntly I feel it is an insult to that people to try to include myself in their belief. Blessings of Peace,

Mark, for one, you hit the nail on the head! In my scenario I stated a "bored MI" cleaning out its hard-drive/memory cache and came across this tid-bit of left over info. I'm giving the MI a human factor of the ability to be "bored" and finding something to occupy itself with. The big question, in my mind, is could an MI ever even get bored??? That is yet another "human" emotional state. If an MI could not do so, then obviously not fully human. I used the model of Christianity as most folks here can follow that scenario, but also based it due to some of my own thoughts/beliefs as to "how" it came into being per se. Remember, I do believe in "God", just not the way things are represented in certain Holy texts. To me, what has been created, in writing, by humans concerning our "salvation" and our relationship with "God" is as much a power trip and controlling mechanism as a programmer would have over the first MI's. An MI experiencing an "I don't know" moment would be interesting and the crux of my scenario above. Of course its all speculation and summarizing, but since Nick has asked about our thoughts concerning MI/AI I thought I'd throw that in the mix. On some levels I can see how MI's could have near human factors, but I'm not 100% convinced they could ever reach a level of true comparison, therefore, the more human comparison questions we raise about MI's the better understanding we may achieve of Nick's proposal. Blessings of Peace,

But let's wander ahead 500 years. Scenario: In 2173 a comet hits the earth and wipes out all "human life" and the MI "rebuild", being the only intelligent life left. Let's say 10% of the animals and 50% of oceanic life also remained. By 2390 most of civilization has been reconstructed and rebuilt on the damaged, but partially still embedded memories of the several thousand MI's that were left after the "Fireball in the Sky". All of the original MI's had basically worn out. All they left in their memory chips was the idea of the "Creator" and being humanoid in appearance were "created in His image" "His"= Old Nick, who built the first fully functioning MI, sometime before the Great Fireball. As those original memories were uploaded into the rest of the MI's thinking, it remained an unused, unnecessary memory for another 200 years. 2499 rolls along and some MI, a bit bored with his existence stumbles across that memory while cleaning out files and doing a full defrag on his hard drive and goes "Whoa! We were created in Old Nick's image!?! What is an "Old Nick"? Due to the comet, many of the orig MI's memories were corrupted and all records of humans and the original MI's are gone, forever, but this one MI, let's call him Abraman II, processes these few little tid-bits of information and comes up with the idea that if "We, the MI's were "created", that must mean everything else was too!" Oh whoa hey! "Dudes! Aaron III and Jacob 6! C'mon over here! Upload this stuff man!" By 2512 nearly all MI's have uploaded this little tid-bit an thus dawns a new, universally accepted thought process for MI's.... "Old Nick created the heavens and the earth and us too! This has to be one awesome, Omnicient MI!" (MI's were created in "his image" = Old Nick was MI to their concept of thinking) With nothing else to compare notes with, who knows what the MI's 500 years in the future would "think" about their Beginning..... With an open mind, just process the thought and you could easily be arguing known belief with MI priests and shaman in the future! Blessings of Peace, I better stop here and copyright this line of thought, Spielberg could make gazillions off this one!!! Avatar™, ha! MI the New Frontiers (©2011 DKjono)....priceless!

LOL on the foat!! Honestly, I had no idea! One other thing you mentioned above Nick, being "passionate about" your MI/AI work. There is an emotion that I find a bit of difficulty in understanding just "how" a 'machine' could develop, regardless of the type of "software". You have a passion for MI/AI as I do about the runes, I personally find it very difficult to explain, in short, just exactly what it is that makes the runes such a emotional thing for me. Only because I understand my own passion about a topic, can I understand yours for MI. Do I feel the same about MI? Well no, because I'm not involved with it. However, if I were to be on the R&D mechanical aspects of design/machining/building it, like I was for the BVE and DTR at Sony, I suppose I could be. Odhinn! I miss the smell of cutting fluid and blue print paper in the morning!! (OOops, guess that "dated" me didn't it?) You may come to understand the runes, but could you ever become passionate about them? Probably not. Having that overwhelming, nothing else matters, focused passion for something is an attribute of our emotional response I find great difficulty in accepting a construct of aluminum, latex and circuit boards could ever achieve. (Somehow I envision the MI as being quite similar to Commander Data (Bruce Spiner) on STNG...a rather featureless, and expressionless near human in appearance.) Have a groovy, Blessed Day!

Nick, I appreciate the far more than expected, in-depth response to explaining the nature of MI/AI. Quite a lesson that leads to many more questions, but for now, would it be okay for me to c/p your response to a .doc or .txt (word) file? I would enjoy being able to compare notes and able to read offline at my leisure. “Heck no!” is as close to what my original thought was that I can post here. I will also have to quote you here as for my answer regarding the ability of a MI being able to do a rune reading. "....it's not really an issue of a simple yes or no, but of something being born of a dynamic complexity." However, upon a bit more deliberation and thought, this has manifest itself into a multiple part answer. I do not agree that MI could reach an emotional state, in full as compared to humans, but I'll go with the possibility of at least a basic level being achieved. Something along the lines of what a cat or a dog may have and as improbable as I think it may be, perhaps even the “emotional state” obtained by higher primates could be considered. Just for the sake of being a bit open minded about it. For the general mass of people, with the “usual” questions that are conferred upon the divination process, I would have to say it might be possible that a MI could indeed provide a suitable answer. I say that with the assumption that the MI has been given the enormous amount of history, logic, probabilities, motives and background insight into each of the runes. That said, I also apply that to the atypical request of “When will I meet Mr./Ms. “Right”? or “What do the runes think the outcome of my job interview will be?” Both of those, it is embarrassing to mention, how many times I have been asked. A true, heart felt, Life Path Reading can take up to several hours or more and requires far more than a simple “Toss and Tell” as I call the “usual”. Regardless of the many runic academics that do not believe in any form of divination, a detailed, Life Path Guidance is what the divination process has been about since the first mentions of it in the sacred texts.(1) Let me give a short example of what I mean: Take uruz, the second rune in the Elder Futhark. The aurochs rune. It represents a “u” in the alphabet and the numerological equivalent of “2”. It also encompasses the many facets of the aurochs; all things concerning with the herding such as grass lands, grazing, social animal attributes, climates and seasonal effects on the herd. Then there is the human consumption of which the choosing, slaughtering, cooking and preservation of the meat is considered. The skins, bones, sinew, hoofs etc for human uses. Then there is the breeding and raising of the calf, the territorial range and boundaries of the Alpha Bull, the buying, selling and trading of calves and cows for continued breeding selection and all the things that go along with that aspect. After all that, the acknowledged attributes of the animal of strength, being a mighty fighter, domestication for plowing or free range and many other factors are considered.All of these factors, and the many more not listed, are taken into account by the “human reader” when making a determination as to how the rune would apply to an individual's reading. Whether the runes came up in prime or reversed order and its relationship to the other runes cast that are either placed, or have fallen next to it. (Depending on whether a “pull” or “casting”) We then add into the mix the divination process itself, the ability of the male or female reader(2) and the comprehension skills of the person being read. So just in this rather limited example there are literally hundreds of things to be considered and sorted through to even begin to get to the nuts and bolts of a proper reading. It can, and does, wear out even a seasoned Reader to consider all of the various factors involved in an in-depth reading. Let's assume that the MI has acquired the thousands of pieces of data required to have a sufficiently adequate data base of information from which to formulate its “reading”. Can the MI read people's eyes and body language, or would it merely mimic those things in a person to "person" reading? Would it be able to filter all the information through and actual experienced life or merely "programmed" life? Could it comprehend the slight nuances between instinctual and learned thought processes that must be filtered through in order to get a full meaning of all things concerned? And even if it could, would it then be able to apply the theoretical and theosophical aspects applied by the pantheon of gods and goddesses that also influence the ever so subtle differences in interpretation of each rune? But of course, when we're talking about the masses and the flippant “need for guidance” it doesn't matter if the daily “horror-scope” or other postings in periodicals are the source or someone's life's blood is at their disposal. By tomorrow, they'll have forgotten every word and pass like the butterfly from flower to flower looking for something sweeter to nibble on. If however, that rare individual comes along that respects the runes, tarot or any other form of divination for what its intended purpose is really meant to reveal, they will take that advice and apply it to their life, for Life and actually get a great deal of knowledge from it. So this is why, at my commercial outlet, I simply give my “10 for 10”, ten minute read for ten bucks and have a number of regulars. On occasion, I'll get a serious inquiry and the feel of the whole process is quite different. Every now and again I'll get updates from people that are amazed, years later, how well the reading they had the patience to endure, is still providing them direction. Could a machine provide that? I'd say perfect for the “10 for 10'ers” but I'm not so sure on a true, in-depth Life Path Reading as intended by the ancients and tradition. Blessings of Peace, Nick, just to let you know, some of what I responded above, did in fact change based on your explanation above from what I wrote yesterday. I even deleted several paragraphs based on statements provided in your answer, no sense covering redundant ground. Math and algorithms are not my field of study, and being a previous research and development mechanical designer/machinist (Sony Commercial Electronics) my main interests would be in the mechanical structure of the MI, not the “Mother board or chip set”. I do realize that many of our human functions, even brain activity are indeed very machine like. Being a “human” who has experienced an awful lot in Life, been to many different countries, held a variety of jobs, associated with many different social strata...it is very difficult for me to fully accept any machine having the full range of emotions, conscious awareness or ability to reason in the same manner a human being does. Difficult, but as time goes on, perhaps not impossible. I also think that the sciences should begin now to redefine sentient and sapient life, before the issue of MI's come...I'm just very suspicious of how our system works and know that once an agenda has been set up for a specific thing, bias comes out of every crack in the wall! Oh yeah, and one last thing, the comment on marrying...I believe, that should MI prove to be what you envision it to be, that somewhere along the line, yes indeed, "they" should be allowed to marry, providing a provable definition of "sentient/sapient life". I'm also sure the entire "definition process" would be made a mess of in the courts based on the known bias and prejudice of "human" judges, politicos and government officials. I meant, the mess that our political and legal system (courts) makes of every little thing is the "wrong" in society, not what can be defined by learned, thinking, rational people. In our short history of America, I also believe, a good many learned, thinking, rational people have put those positive attributes aside to arise to their lofty positions of governance of the masses. Reyn til runa! Actually, I don't think I've had to break down the processes involved in a rune reading since taking my verbal Apprenticeship Exams at the Gild over 25 years ago to become a Vitki. Rune divination is far more than a simple process. It entails a bucket full of emotions, instincts and intellect that far surpass a simple a+b=c as far as a true, in-depth reading goes. References: (1) These texts are available only to certain High Redes and Yrmin-Drightens of the various Rune-Gilds. I've seen, but have not been allowed to read, two of these ancient manuscripts in Uppsala, Sweden and another set at Universitet in Stockholm. My personal opinion is this is why there are so many high level Nordic/Germanic History academic nay sayers against rune divination because they are not privy to these texts. The Gilds have been a sacred, secretive right since around 450BCE and the best of them have held to these time honored traditions for nearly 2,500 years. That in and of itself is why I have so much faith in the ability of some of the Gild Ásatrú Folk that have kept these traditions alive for so long. What I have learned from the High Redes and Drightens (top dogs) is something I hold very dear to my heart and feel a great sense of honor in being trusted with even the tid-bits I've been given. (2) Yes, the gender of the reader does have an influence on the reading. It is due to the experienced Life mentioned and that men and women have very different mind-sets towards numerous things. Naturally this is not a bad thing, but in explaining this answer to the question does have bearing. There are in fact gender specific Rune-Gilds and both, male and female associated, requiring at least 5 years of study within a mingled gild before applying to the “Frey” or “Freyja” branches.

Yes, it may be the number of quotes. I'm not sure, but I think there is a limit. Perhaps one of the admins could help with that answer? And thank you for the detailed explanation, some convincing evidence to say the least. It's an awful lot for this ol' head to absorb, but I will apply my new found understandings to the question you posed, before posting...only one change I may consider at this point, but not done "absorbing" yet either! I will post later today. Blessings of Peace or Have a groovy day, Whichever bloats the foat!! Which Btw brings up a question: Do you believe MI/AI could ever develop a sense of humor? (Of course this goes back to many episodes of Star Trek, (Spock) ST New Gen (Cmdr Data) and more recently "Bi-Centennial Man" (Robin Williams)

Same, that will require a detailed answer later....something I'll have to put preconceived ideas about aside. I look forward to an exchange on that...actually quite an interesting question. Blessings Be,

Well, since you asked for opinions.... (1) Machine Intelligence is a good enough distinction, seems to me, would be comprised some form of computer driven "individual" or another. Binary. Yes/No, On/Off, Right/Wrong.... that, as others have pointed out removes all areas of gray to a purely black or white "consciousness", if that is even remotely what a AI or MI could obtain. Yes, I do understand that "computers" have also evolved into something a bit more than mere binary coding, ah Quantum Computations or something like that, but still based on practically the same method of achieving results. Regardless of the many "resources" shown above does not show me or prove to me that MI/AI could be capable of "emotions". Emulation requires a conscious decision, therefore I also have to agree that 'manifested' or 'exhibited' responses are better terms. Even organic computers, as have been suggested in other theories, would still be in the "artificial" category, regardless of the physical makeup of those components. (A long time, good friend of mine works on "thinking" and "self teaching" programming at HP. His evaluation is is , regardless of the end result, it all still begins with basic programming being applied by a human. The fact that it can make choices, based on it's accumulated experiences and past processes, does not make the computer alive or truly a thinking machine. Highly capable, but not "alive". Guess we'll see what the future holds for the industry.) The possibility of emotional responses being added to the "tree of choice" the calculated outcome would not be based on "love" or "hate", lust, envy, greed, anger, affection.. etc etc any of the numerous emotional states, the outcome would merely be based on the longer list of available choices applied to the situation, not true emotion. Bottom line is, the range of emotions we "humans" experience are something quite unique to homo-sapiens. Some animals such as high primates and even other mammals have a short list of basic emotional response mechanisms, but are not processed through the same means as we do; i.e.; logic, rationale, reasoning. I'd like to believe my cats are all capable of "love" as their actions of affection sure seem to indicate that, but the purring fur-bucket in my lap right now is I'm sure, just "content" with itself at being warm and comfy. (Animal lovers, please don't misconstrue my words, I'm sure you understand what I mean! ) (2) Nope, just don't see how/where AI/MI would ever have the same emotional index that humans do, regardless of the astronomically high improbability of having a "soul". Science can explain nearly every atomic structure of the human body, understands cell structure, synapse connections, DNA and RNA sequencing, etc etc etc, but the "Spark of Life", the kick switch, to us being conscious human beings, with a conscience, still evades science. That one simplistic little detail is why I firmly believe in a "Soul". IMO, our soul is what separates us HU-mans from the high primates and all other forms of living matter. Call it what you will, explain it away with all the data and resources you wish, but until science can explain "what" gives us this unique separation from all other lifeforms, not just a meat sack with a pulse and the instinctual ability to feed itself, I'll continue to call it a "Soul". The mere fact we can idealize our own mortality and conceptualize "Faith" and "Belief", be those theosophies right, wrong or indifferent, divides us most conclusively from other known "life" here on Earth. (3) As far as the ability to marry, I'm certain the courts would give that the same amount of attention to this as anything else....at least decades of "opinions" by Chief Justices...and in the end would come up with something grand like "SATA Coupling" or "Artificial Intelligence Interfacing", but "marriage" would remain exclusive to HU-mans. One only need look at the mess the courts have made of the LGBT community of human beings and the right to marry to see that one coming. Yup, just my opinion on the topic, I'm not out to disprove or sway anyone else's same. Blessings of Peace,

Sounds to me like it's time for shearing there Fawzo! Kay's asked for a new Wahl clipper for Christmas so maybe start the new year off with a slick "crew cut"??? Blessings,

It is amazing how much our familiars and pets touch our everyday lives. It seems that with each one traveling on before us a change comes to our lives. It is absolutely incredible how this cycle works, if we but keep our eyes and minds open to the possibilities. That you found the courage and strength to make a positive change, how wonderful. Blessings of Healing, Prayers for you and yours,

Thanks Hex for your efforts as well. We spread the message of Spay and Neuter every chance we get.... (10x a day it seems sometimes ) as that is the only way we know of to keep the populations under control. Kay and I are so appreciative of the many others who do what's best for feral as well...there's just so many of them. Well gotta run, dr appt today Later, Al

Yep, about the size of my old pocket watch! Blessings,

paw print...I should get working on that! Lemme see what is entailed in getting an new emoticon! Blessings Be,

topic check timestamp

Ah yes, the current clown prince! As I said elsewhere, we have those that just seem to stick with us, no matter "where" they are. Blessings of Peace,

In a follow up to follow up, I think our good Veterinarian has been too busy to publish her article to the "Pet Corner". When last I called, about 6 weeks ago, she was still "in the works" on it. Hopefully one day it will be here! Blessings,

Topic Check timestamp