Atwater Vitki

Touché Rebbe! Blessings of Peace,

I've had a life like that, and believe me pushing 0 (zero) to bypass the system and get an operator usually just ends up with an electronic voice saying "We're sorry, we did not understand the last input. For English press 1, for questions about your bill press 2, For problems with.......bzzz...zpt..zpt buzzz...We are Borg and you have been assimilated....." Blessings of Peace,

In a general sense, yes, I'm a happy person. It's just when the little obstacles of life get in the way like noisy neighbors, satellite company's that like to sc%*! me or other various small things that there are moments of...well...that I want blood on me axe and a head in me basket to stew for dinner! Other than that, yes, I'm happy! Blessings of Peace,

Yeah brah, is da kine we saw dere too! Blessings of Peace,

Will put on my prayer list in a general sense... (..I do NOT do facebook ..) ...so I don't know the particulars, but will send energy towards the event referenced. Blessings of Peace,

Greetings All, About a month ago my mother was admitted to hospital having suffered a minor stroke and extremely low pulse rate. She now has had a Pacemaker installed and is fighting a terrible systemic infection, caused by a cut on her foot and full on Type 1 Diabetes. She is suffering kidney failure as a result of the intense anit-biotic regimen. She also has a myriad of other minor things going on for a lady of 86 years. She seems to be on a see-saw of good days/bad days and her Will to keep on fighting "Life" as it were, diminishes greatly each day. She has lived a full and good Life having done her duty as it were since just after high school when she worked for Pratt & Whitney Aircraft, blueprinting engines for many of the WWII fighters and bombers to her retirement in 1986 from the Hayward Parks Department as the Senior Landscape Architect. Like my machinist father Eddy having worked on many historical things such as Gemini and Space Shuttle projects, Hubble Space Telescope, Mom too was involved with many preservation projects of old mansions around the Bay Area and headed a Commission for the California Preservation Society. Evelyn has a firm belief in God and her Faith and no one who knows her will believe she is going anywhere but Heaven. She has longed for a few weeks now, to simply go "home" and have a cup of coffee with Dad, who passed in December 2008. I think she deserves this right and to not be confined to a bed suffering. May I request of you a thought, prayer or meditation from you for the "Best" for her? My Eternal thanks, Blessings of Peace,

"lyHo TanMra Manbat!" This has to be among the top ten longest threads on any topic! Good job folks! After paying attention to this topic for several weeks, and of course by our dutiful Scribe Murph tediously hand typing each and every letter of every word to notify me*, personally by e-mail, (can he EVER sleep?), I think a few points are extremely valid. 1. There are the many people among us who acknowledge the man-made, Divinely Inspired "source" and possible/probable changing of wordage through centuries of translations, having effect on content or message, of the Scriptures 2. There are those few people among us who adamantly believe in the God-sent, Divine "source" and in no way changed wordage, content or message of the Scriptures 3. There are a few who could care less about which is true and read many "Divinely Inspired" texts for personal Inspiration The Awesome wonder of ULC! I have about 10 books that sit upon my desk shelves and I noticed the other day how dog-eared three of them are; my 1973 NIV Bible w/ concordance and study notes, the Eddas (compiled Nordic texts of 13th century) and The Book of Troth (The "Scriptures" of the LHP). The latter having been severely damaged by fire and water, yet still readable. A couple others certainly show wear and tear of many, many years of use. I have found insurmountable inspiration and read lovingly devotional passages from all of these books. Do I believe 100%, without any doubt what-so-ever in the absolute and keen accuracy of every word in any or all of these books? NO. I do believe that any time man has a hand in translating, transcribing and reprinting any book there is personal beliefs and possible agendas involved that may or may not influence the editor to change things. Snorri Sturlesson, when translating the Edda and Poetic Edda into Icelandic, a very complicated language, certainly had to apply his academic knowledge and "best guess" to many words and translational meanings. As well, simply dabbling in these sort of pagan works, he risked expulsion from his academic status, which did almost happen, due to the religious frenzy of his era. As far as the Scriptures go, being translated from old Hebrew, to Greek, to Arabic to English, over 12-15 centuries, simple language barriers would lead any scholar and non scholar alike to know there had to be words and phrases that were changed or modified. Does this in any way reduce the value of the work overall? Does making diminutive changes so it is readable in other languages completely void the content? No and No! What I feel the crux of the issue is here is that some view Spong as being a heretic and others simply agree with his assertions that what we read today, compared to the original, having questionable changes applied. A reasonable assessment. I'm beginning to think this has less to do with acknowledging the facts and historical accuracy than it does with the faithful harboring a preconceived idealism concerning the author of a book. I profess to be Pagan, yet I receive inspiration from a religious text called The Bible. Do I feel I betrayed my Nordic heritage and viking roots by doing so? No! What I find fascinating is that there several similar examples expressing things of the Goals and Virtues every Nordic Warrior holds true. (Just One example: Idun and her apples of Youth, Helen of Troy and her Apples, Eve and the apple...a whole book could be written just on that one topic, yet all three versions are meant as a virtuous example of avoiding 'bad behavior'). The Bible, for all its glory and wondrous text is indeed an inspirational and devotional work meant to instill a sense of correctness within our Spirit. If it fails to do so in the individual, that doesn't mean it has no value to millions of others. To kill the messenger as it were in Spong doesn't change the fact that mere language is insufficient at times of relaying in whole a given message by the author of a text in an ancient language. I do believe that Inspiration and a sense of Direction for the Spirit is what the Bible is all about. Not whether Paul Petered the world or John ate certain mushrooms, the Message is what matters. The same goes for Snurri and Sprong. Blessings of Peace, Prayers for open minded and constructive exchange. *just kidding, I know this is done by a whole herd of scribes, with ink smeared faces, sharpened quills on velum made of goat bladders, working under him!

(1) interesting use of words to back the argument that none of the texts have been altered (2) The cycle of having to repeat things is really strange...in my bio, if anyone read it, I started off as a red, white and blue 110% believer in what my parents and church taught me in my youth. When I came into the "age of reason", it didn't hold true as there were too many disparaging examples between what was taught/said and actualized/done. In no way did I set out to only find evidence to support my leeriness, quite the opposite, I wanted and desired "proof" of the Christianity I was born into and what I was taught....but could not find it. (3) never made any such claim or even hinted of it (4) I am published in Gild specific academic publications 1994,1996,1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005, 2009; Uppsala University equiv. to NEJM, 2001 & 2002, authored 3 books, however never anywhere nor to any person have I ever claimed to be an authroity. Well versed, outside the box yes, but never have I made such an arrogant claim. And I suppose I should have chosen my words much more carefully, I had hoped that you, as others did, saw the reference "equivalent to Master's Degree" as "in depth researching", not just something of momentary or casual interest. The bottom line here friend, is keeping an open mind, accepting a point of view different than one's own as someone else's truth and not to seem fearful that they are trying to convert you or anyone. The adamant approach that only a certain view is correct is "Flat Earth Conceptualization" and was defunct many centuries ago. No one here or in other posts has ever tried to sway your truth or belief, not once that I've seen. I guess all any of us are trying to "prove" is that there is in fact evidence to the contrary that no Biblical text were altered....a LOT of evidence...and those sources have been given here and elsewhere. IMO at least 90% of this topic has cycled and re-cycled on giving facts and resources only to have every one denied or claimed, by opinion, not to be reliable or relevant. When a Queen, a King, the heads of several colleges and numerous other scholars have indeed not only claimed, but held to all standards of academia these facts to be so, then anything else, IMO, should be deemed as wrong...even if it 100% supports my personal opinion. From my background, I would have liked more than anything to believe that the Scriptures were 1000%, the unaltered and the unfiltered Word of God. After all, would He even need a human hand to write it down? I think not. That would end all discussion on any of the topic. But since mankind was involved in the original texts, humans with obvious and various agendas did translate and transcribe it, there can be no question as to there being blemishes in it along the way. We are born into original sin and as such are imperfect creatures....says so in the Bible. THAT alone should be sufficient evidence to: 1) Understand the Scriptures have a inspiring, beautiful and wonderful message 2) Are indeed INSPIRED by faith and belief in "God" 3) There are going to be errors because imperfect creatures wrote it down It can not be both ways. And in closing, if you think that simply because I've chosen to practice a form of Paganism is the only reason I oppose the view of perfection and infallibility in the Scriptures, I should send you my 58 page discourse on Sigertsristing (the largest rune monument ever discovered) in Sweden. I started my opposition to 350 years of established, "proven" academic knowledge on that subject as I first sat upon that very piece of granite taking pictures and notes. My "published work" in Fålsfarristing was fore-worded by one of the contemporary experts (an accredited Ph.D. and professor in Nordic Mythology) validating my claim. And I'm not bringing this up to prove anything, other than to let you know just because something is written by an "expert" that I swallow it 100%...whether that be Pagan, Christian or Martian. I didn't even begin to want to go against the established order in my field of runes, it just presented itself. And if not I, then perhaps someone else. And it's the same with the Scriptures...I never started by desire to find fault, the fault presented itself. Logical observation, calculated examination and an open mind can glean more FACTS out of any written material than anyone's opinion....anyone's. "The general facts concerning what we know, are what they are today. That is until tomorrow, when someone may find those facts deficient. That is why I love mathematics....." - Albert Einstein Blessings of Peace,

Yes, I do see the difference and always did. I also see avoidance of the other pertinent points several others, as well as myself, brought up...of course...there will now be a request for "specifics"....so.... Posts number 12, 20, 23, 25, 32, 33, 40, 41...........162, 166, 170, 178, 179, 180, 187 The bottom line, from this chair, as I see it, is very simple: Some of us think Sprong has a valid message, though we may or may not agree with it in whole and you do not agree with him to any degree. That is quite all right. The fact remains, from far too many sources both religious and secular that the Bible was written by many different human beings albeit "inspired by God". Humans have agendas. Agendas alter truth. Even so, this does not mean I do not find a great deal of value in the written word...I very much do. Look at it like the real event vs. the Hollywood version of the same account as one sits in a theater....basic story line= fact....interpretation=opinion of concept. If the very basic a+b=c doesn't add up for you or anyone else, it is not up to the academics to search until they find an answer that meets yours or other's criteria to validate your point of view. You should be proving them wrong, not the evidential formula changing to make your answer right. I spent close to 25 years researching until I found the (a, an) answer to my quandary concerning a connection between ancient paganism and modern religion and how each correlated to God. Along the way I received what I am certain is the equivalent to at least a Master's in education regarding both sides of the issue. There are many who value my results, compiled info and thesis and those who continue to deny any correlation... so be it. The last thing I'm going to do is deny a proven fact, as best we know it today, until there is a compendium of evidence to the contrary....which science and academia does routinely....my/your/anyone's opinion is not a compendium of evidence. Do you see the difference? Blessings of Peace,

Wow...I thought reading 93 responses in another thread turned my brain to an oozing mass...it is now completely liquefied after the above one hundred eighty some odd. Yet I believe my response to The Gulf of Mexico Travesty applies here as well. My Blessed Brothers, is not the purpose and intent of this topic one of a couple of basic points? 1. That the Bible, as we read it today is a revision of original texts 2. Basic foundations were altered by the authors of the KJV 3. Spong merely points out 1 & 2 above ... or did I miss the boat completely on this?? Brother Coolhand, your opening salvo of having to "explain" your dialogue "... regarding doctrine that lead to my use of the words "Calvinism, Tulip...which in order to actually continue...required definition...not sure were completely understood by anyone but the professional clergy..." is reminiscent to me of my engineering days listening to the "electronics professionals" sit around and intellectually masturbate quantum physics and giggle like 3rd graders over the lack of comprehension by those they felt were inferior to them. I, nor do I hope anyone else here, feel inferior to someone's lack of social proprietary graces in an open forum to those of all levels of understanding. Most of this debate seems centered around whether the Scriptures have been altered or revised to any significant level as to obscure the original texts from which the KJV was derived. Well, I do believe they were due to several factors. 1. Queen Elizabeth made that clear in her draft for an act of Parliament(1) requesting such a revised Scripture be written 2. King James I, made certain that directive was carried out to the letter(2) 3. Clergy and those of Higher Learning in the Scriptures had a clear and present danger to their official position should the commoner be privy to such a thing as a comprehensive understanding of the Bible. Notwithstanding any personal angst with taking the scripture out of the hands of individual clergy, that may or may not have had any singular agenda or rationale to dilute the written word, and putting it in the hands of the average "pew sitter" - God forbid we be so distracted by such untrained observations - translations from Hebrew to Greek to Aramaic to Spanish, German English and French - had already altered the text by their own admissions.(3) This is evident both past and present by any translation from the mundane to the apocrypha through simple semantics and syntax alone. In my most humble opinion, for anyone of contemporary learning to even state the Bible is literal and unchanged; in it's entirety exacting and correct to the original scrolls and Tanakh is, well, a rather uneducated statement. There is simply no reasonable argument for making such a claim due to variances in language, philosophies, theologies and...and..and.. I'm not even going to get into the selection of Books, chapters and various texts left out, edited or put into the KJV by the same learned "forty-seven" who were a part of this process and the four years it took for them to decide on such. As well, whether one does or does not believe in the validity of Essenes, Gnostics or any multitude of writers during the early church, is really immaterial. The fact that so many texts concerning first hand accounts of Christ's life existed, leaves our contemporary knowledge of the time and Life of Christ in a vast vacuum if all we have is the KJV from which to study as so much was left out. In summary, for me all it took was one look at Queen Elizabeth's initial draft and King Jame's finalized Act of Parliament(4), a basic understanding of the 17th century church and secular history, to know there was without any doubt, revision, omission and abstruse references made during this process of creating the KJV. To say anything otherwise is to completely ignore historical facts and precedents. Beings that it was asked repeatedly for any resources outside of Sprong's work or other texts already posted numerous times by other responders, I felt sufficient time has lapsed, without said resources being made available to the author of this topic, to offer this summary. It is given in Peace and hopefully enlightenment, though I have every reason to believe it will be met with the same amount of voracity for keeping his current view. Nonetheless, historical data being what it is I now shall slither back into my cave! Blessings of Peace, (1)As the reign of Elizabeth (1558-1603) was coming to a close, we find a draft for an act of Parliament for a new version of the Bible: "An act for the reducing of diversities of bibles now extant in the English tongue to one settled vulgar translated from the original." (2) In July of 1604, James wrote to Bishop Bancroft that he had "appointed certain learned men, to the number of four and fifty, for the translating of the Bible." These men were the best biblical scholars and linguists of their day. (3) "moved his Majesty, that there might be a new translation of the Bible, because those which were allowed in the reigns of Henry the eighth, and Edward the sixth, were corrupt and not answerable to the truth of the Original." (4) When a Word hath divers Significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most of the Ancient Fathers, being agreeable to the Propriety of the Place, and the Analogy of the Faith. Brief History of the KJV

I have a few quirks, which shouldn't be surprising to anyone here that knows me even a little bit! However I have been remiss in not sharing some of them: *start day with the dreadful habit of medications and exercise to simply get out of bed due to very serious injuries several years ago. Kay, my wife also has this dreadful routine. We both suffer from degenerative lumbar disc's and severe injury to same areas. Then coffee pot going and ice cold Pepsi for her. 1. ULC forums check in nearly every day 2. Cosmic Dimensions Radio:http://www.cosmicdimensions.com/ for those who seek some truly calm, quiet music for the soul and especially "Awakenings" on Sunday mornings and afternoons and Thursday from 11a-1p. 3. Spending time with my wife and cats, whether that is watching TV, under a pile of fur, playing board or online games with Kay, or a walk to the mail box (all of us) 4. Answering e-mail from adoring fans and hate-groups alike .... not always fun but a necessary part of keeping up with life 5. Preparing hof and stead workings as well as Scriptural readings for whichever is due next 6. Prayers/meditations; nightly with a long list of remembrances and then Self immersion 7. Cooking and household chores, mundane but necessary 8. Studying/researching my next article or position But through all of it and in a cohesive combination of thoughts and duties, always, doing my best to connect to my higher Self. Meditation for instance can be done anytime, anywhere...(deep meditation should of course be done while relaxed and in a purposeful manner) Yep, life can be mundane and not so eventful, but what a joy when we submerse ourselves in what it is that floats our boat. I posted it for Raincloud in another thread, but for those who may not be familiar "e-sword" a downloadable version of the study Bible is a must for researchers: click here There are a number of separate downloads for various versions of the bible, the Hebrew Old Testament, Greek, Arabic and Strong's Concordance so enjoy as it's all free! So what about you, what things do you all do during your "normal days"? Just curious to see how things compare in the "uneventful categories...which is MOST of life. Blessings of Peace,

I can only add, reading and comprehension is a must....it wasn't difficult to understand...it was difficult to read so much...on a subject I am not personally involved with to the degree others are....I should have been more clear. My "concise" statement was in reference to on topic, valid rebuttal. My final on this will have to be what was clearly stated in the orig posting by Brother Sky: "Thus, modern Christians cling to this doctrine -- ignoring overwhelming evidence to the contrary -- evidence that demonstrates conclusively that our Bible has been severely altered and edited -- because they fail to grasp the very foundational principles of the New Covenant itself -- principles that are not historical, but spiritual. It is not until we understand that the Bible is a road-map that leads us to the Gate of the Kingdom, and the Word that is written in our hearts -- rather than a final revelation from God to man -- that we are able to even begin to come to terms with the Spiritual Gospel of Christ that can never be corrupted." Further on in the article and even more on the website gives the specifics that need to be look at by the one refusing to admit the fallible nature of what we read today...it appears the rest of us have. Blessings of Peace,

That was, in my most humble opinion, crass and the very heart of the Fundamentalist's argument about any "attack"...or even mild disagreement... on what they teach/spew/beguile man kind ...."I'm too busy to hear your rebuttal"... and I will add a short clip to Fawzo's truncated summary: Furthermore, the Church itself became so Pagan and corrupt, that it was often referred to throughout history as the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev 2:9;3:9). In a letter to Pope Leo X on September 6th, 1520, Martin Luther wrote of the Christianity of his day that the church, "…once the holiest of all, has become the most licentious den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the kingdom of sin, death, and hell. It is so bad that even Antichrist himself, if he should come, could think of nothing to add to its wickedness" As for anything further, I stated my thoughts on this above. Brother Michael, once again you absolutely amaze me with your concise and accurate research and commentary albeit even I had great difficulty reading 80% of what was posted, but enough to see that it reflects many of my own thoughts on this topic. And to our Brother, Coolhand, not a chance am I, nor do I believe anyone here trying to dissuade or coerce your thinking, just presenting some facts and wish that others were given the same consideration in return. No one here that I am aware of is attempting a conversion of anyone's views or thinking, except those who refuse to acknowledge another's validity. Blessings of Peace,

Fawzo- I am saddened deeply to hear this. We will most certainly send a Blessing his way and yours. I totally understand how this leaves an impression, even if not the closest. Many Blessings of Healing, Light, Comfort and Solace your way...

May she find peace and happiness, comfort and contentment in her choices and decisions. May she embrace the love and peace her friend offer. May the Lord, comfort, protect and guide her in all she does. Blessings of Peace,

Thank you for sharing this Bro. Sky. I must admit though, I'm bad enough in English and was completely tongue tied in the Aramaic! I'm certain the Nazerenes will forgive the oversight!! I think we often get too caught up in our daily lives to understand the origins of many things. I firmly believe prayer and/or meditation are one in the same thing. Prayer, if done according to what Jesus had to say about it was a connection to the Host. I think the reference of "going into your closet to pray" is one very tell tale sign of it. By sequestering ourselves from the noise and ramblings of the world we can indeed connect so much better. My wife and I do energy workings together from time to time and this not only gives us a better 'connection' to each other, but our individual selves as well. As with most things, it is the simplistic that seems to have the most impact. I hope more will contribute to this topic in support of the needs of our ULC Fellowship here. .... and Rev. Rainbow...you have most certainly piqued my interest!!! Just what was it you deleted?? Wrong topic? Hmmmm.. ...hehehehehe... I fully understand as I too, so often get so many dang tabs/windows open I completely lose track of where I am!!! Blessings of Peace,

I'm not sure how I missed this thread for so long, but thank you Teresa for putting it up! Being "Christo-pagan" we had several different views around our home, dinner table and off to school times when the kids were at home. But as noted above, anytime can be a quick meditation or respectful acknowledgment of our Theosophy. And yes, a simple "thanks" is really all any path requires as a prayer or mantra. I think sometimes people, myself included, have gotten so ingrained in what we believe we try and "re-write" everything when so much of how we think or what we believe has already be expressed. Like here Teresa, so many of the things you wrote above are nearly word for word the same I learned through Äsatrú associations. My wife Kay has a saying that "any moment that someone has to themselves can be a moment of meditation". Washing your hands, brushing your teeth, standing line at the supermarket can all be a "moment". In the Christian path, what more need be said than how the Christ told us how to pray? "Our Father, which art in heaven..." (Matt 6:9-13) As well, for those of the Äsatrú Folk I teach, I have written a similar one of simplicity. Hail the All Father, from whom we are blessed, Hail Thor for he protects us, Hail Mimir, for he prepares our minds, Hail Braggi for giving us our tongue (voice)! To Heimdaler I ask the Bifrost bridge passage, Be later in my Life, To the Valkyre, I ask the same. As for today, may I be Blessed by, Family, friends and acquaintances, Full table and horn. Blessings Be! Blessings of Peace,

♪♫♪ I think each of us, especially as we mature, realize that what others may hold as "Truth" in their little individual bubble of the Multi-verses, may or may not fit within the scope of our personal experiences. When we take the time and presence, to honestly and fully listen to the Cosmos, and feel the vibration that strikes resonance Within each of us, we realize that every Spirit is like a chord. A chord that is only compatible with but a few individual notes (truths). We either live life in harmony or dis-chord, there is no in between. Therefor, which ever tune (belief) we follow, is that which make music in our soul. Those that do not listen to their own vibration are those who have no melody, having no melody makes them defiant and obstructive, abusive and in complete dis-chord with everyone else. ♫♪♫♪ Blessings of Peace,

Coolhand, Thanks for a good line of thinking. This does give me a varied perception, maybe not completely mind changing, but definitely an adjustment to the lenses of looking back on historical and Scriptural texts. I appreciate the expansion in thinking and not attacking a mis-perceived challenge to Belief. We, the living, have the opportunity here, to re-evaluate, further explain our "writings", something that Paul or any of the Apostle's, do not have the benefit of doing. To me, this is exactly why there is so much controversy over ancient texts in the first place. In my LHP teachings there is as much, if not more controversy over what little evidence we have from history. Far too many LHP "scholars" depend on Snorri Sturleson (1167?-1245) being the definitive, when he too was merely an educated "guess" many centuries after the facts. A third party explaining what someone "really meant", when it is honestly only the author that can fully define or restate their personal view. Your approach to this is spot on IMO. Blessings Be Brother, Blessings of Peace,

Over the past few months I've noticed an increase in the number of our Membership that have had all sorts of calamities strike them. Barring the individual requests for various needs, there also seems to be a generalized need for support, understanding, compassion and even advice. Naturally there a number of things that could be said concerning the content of a prayer and perhaps each of you who may stumble across this topic may want to add your own words towards someone or something you know needs special attention. I am thankful in numerous ways that my wife Kay and I, though we may not have it necessarily "easy" on a day to day basis, are far better off than many, many others during these tragic and terrible times. We sincerely wish there was more we could for those we know. It seems to be a small thing, but sometimes just being there for someone, whether that is in person, over the phone, via e-mail or just another semi-anonymous screen name, for a fellow Brother or Sister to share their angst, joys and concerns with does indeed help. I'd just like to offer a moment that we each reflect on those who may not be doing as well Spiritually, physically or financially as our Brethren here at ULC. It is after all, mutually beneficial to each of us to have a Spiritually enriched camaraderie and association while we visit our "favorite" forum. While I can think of many words I'd like to say concerning each of those I know about, I think the Christ has no equal when it comes to words for a prayer of enrichment of Spirit for those who may need a bit of a 'lift'. Please, join me for just a moment, silently or out loud, and pass this on to our Brothers and Sister here at ULC. Thank you. Mat 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. Blessings of Peace,

First off Coolhand, I think it's great that you bring up a exegesis on a subject and examining certain attributes of one aspect of the many beliefs out there. I hope this encourages others to do the same involving issues or texts of their personal interest. I have to agree with Fawzo and Hexalpa on the facts being varied as compared to Paul's opinionated writings. The comparison between the actual occurrence of something and the conveying of that experience are precisely the crux of the issue. Paul, in my most humble opinion, was a zealot and maniac who's writings were full of judgmental disparages against anything he could not personally understand, having ear plugs and blinders in place concerning anything other than his own viewpoints. However, I shall put that aside as an opinion for the moment and try and evaluate this from a less antagonistic perspective. I suppose it may be best described as my writing on this topic are both commissive and referential. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.) Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. As I read this, Paul is making the statement that prior to "the law" being given, death was death,final and absolute. No chance of eternal grace and dwelling in Heaven as the "law" had not yet been given down to the people. In this light, prior to the Christ, we were an entirely humanistic society without the ability of salvation, in essence then, completely nullifying the Old Testament. Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Saying then that if one man, Adam, caused the multitudes to die, for eternity, without chance of the Grace of Eternal Life, the Christ, being one man would redeem the multitudes and give them Eternal Life. A cycle theory. Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. This either elevates Adam to an equal with the Christ, or reduces the Christ to that of Adam. Saying that Adam could cause all of mankind to be condemned to eternal, and final death puts an enormous amount of deific power on one human. Had Adam been aware of his status as an equal to a "son of God" perhaps he would have refused Eve's offer of the fruit from the Tree of Life. From a personal experience perspective, I once worked for a company like that. When they attempted to fire me for gross negligence as "supervisor", my first question was to see the documentation that I was indeed promoted from Assembler III, to Lead, to Supervisor, which of course they could not. Had I known I was supervising seven other workers, by official title, responsibility and empowerment, I never would have allowed a machine to be shipped the way it was. Secular reference aside, as far as I read and decipher from Genesis, Adam only had knowledge of being a creation of God, not a "Son" thus making him responsible for humanity in its entirety. I firmly believe he would have made a better choice had he known so. (1) Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. The grace referenced here, is that retroactive? If it 'aboundeth' more-so than the offense, wouldn't it be likely? In my studies, this is one of the biggest questions I've had for many years concerning the Eternal Life concept. Is that merely from the Christ's execution forward or does it include those tens of millions who passed into the ethers prior to that time? (2) I don't want to sway the topic from Romans 5:12-21 as that is the intended purpose here, but I've found many of Apostle's writings to be a bit exclusionary to "facts" they had access to in the Torah and other texts that would become the "Old Testament". The Apostle's, given the authority by Jesus to spread the "Good News", seemingly had great leeway in their interpretations of the Christ's messages. After all, they, not Jesus, were creating an entirely new religious based faith and belief system. From many texts, written from first hand accountings of the Christ's life, (i.e.; Dead Sea Scrolls and others) the parables Jesus used in his presenting the Law as per the Torah, were analogies in order to gain a better understanding by his many audience's. As well, in their time, transforming from a eternal death to Eternal Life based culture must have had a huge impact on people who lived moment by moment in fear of death from myriad of sources from government to diseases. (1) One of the reasons I bring up this angle is Genesis and the creation story, lends credibility to evolution. Taking dust and forming man is a clear indication of things transforming from one into another. Transformation being exactly what evolution is by process. It may be a loose interpretation, however, putting Genesis through the same exegesis, there are many clues as to validity of such a thought. (2) I also think that the many references to the dead rising from their graves through the Eternal Grace of "Salvation" inferred the past dead as well as those after 33 CE, not just in the thousand year reign but as a means of solving this theological conundrum. An interesting point, prior to the Christ's crucifixion and promise of eternal life, the funeral pyre was the accepted form of body disposal rite. Afterwards, burial became the normal procedure, I believe, due to a misunderstanding of Jesus' intended message. The location of the soul after physical death has no bearing on resurrection as I do not believe it is the physical body being resurrected. I think the whole resurrection analogy is symbolic, not literal.