Fawzo

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34880397/ns/technology_and_science-science/

I Understand what you are saying but isn't this is the very same message Luke is giving in Acts to the Greeks. He is telling the Greeks that Starting from scratch, he made the entire human race and made the earth hospitable, with plenty of time and space for living so we could seek after God, and not just grope around in the dark but actually find him. He doesn't play hide-and-seek with us. He's not remote; he's near. Acts 17:26-27 (MSG) His testimony through our natural World isn't any greater to the Greek nor Jew or Christian. He doesn't yell any louder or jump up on a pole waving a bloody red flag to get anyone's attention any more than the next guy. This evidence which is all around everyone is there for everyone, not just Paul's Roman Christians, but Luke's Pagan Greeks as well. He can't wink at one's persons ignorance as it states in Luke and condem others for the same offense as it states in Romans. You could make the claim that Paul is speaking only to born again believers who knew the truth and rejected it but I do not see that within the context of the writing in Romans. How many born again believers do you know or conjecture have existed through histiory that have rejected Yeshua and turned to worshipping reptiles. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Romans 1:22-23 (ESV) He is speaking to Greeks no-believers when he states "though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring" The verse which precedes and lead into this paragraph clearly shows to me he is not speaking to born again believers: I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. The Righteous Shall Live by Faith 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."[Romans 1:14-17 (ESV) I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this. I see a very clear and irreconcilable contradiction. I wonder if you would read Romans in the same light if you knew nothing of the Luke scripture?

Those rats sound smarter han some of the 20 year olds I know!

So then Dan I assume you are of the belief that God is the only one who can create something that hasn't already existed in his own being completely separate from himself. Then you must give all credit for the creation of evil squarely to God. No one else could have created something that was non-God unless of course if God were already evil to begin with. Unless you are saying some being took elements of God such as EV (love) and IL (self) and combined them in a concentrated poorly formulated way to make EVIL (love of self). So I plan on taking IL, the Self element and removing some of self and making LI (selfless) and EV (love) and making LIVE (selfless love). I would try to get a copyright of this formula but I think I may be infringing on some undocumented copyrights already held by Buddha, Yeshua and many beofre me.

Are people attacking the Bible and or God, or is it the concept of infallibility which is being attacked? Wouldn't make much sense to attack the book. I'll consider myself as one of these attackers to make my point. There are portions of the Bible which I still love and cherish today and I know portions of it are historically accurate. There are other portions which we know aren't historically accurate or that have bee redacted. Do you consider it an attack when these later are discussed? As for attcking any Deity. My personal belief is that any deity which can be attacked isn't worth the goat feces they are made out of. Methinks it is the claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God trying to give it a valdity and distiction which it truly does not hold that creates the furor you perceive as an attack. As we can see from the one Biblical verse we are discussing God's testimony is given to every being in all of creation. The Bible is no valid than any other of these expressions which were inspired by this Godly testimony. The Bodhi tree and all of creation were speaking to the Buddha just as the bush did to Moses and many other Mystics of other philosophies have received their messages through the wonders of nature. One day one might recieve one through Mushrooms Here is the problem I have with your statements. If one looks at the ESV translation it is clear that the things of God aren't only clearly made known to believers, but to all. One doesn't need exclusive access to this Holy Spirit or any such exclusive priviledges that Christians so often seem to claim as their own as a type of decipher code, needed to give them exclusive and extensive access to God's Word. One merely has to keep an open mind and listen, and all the knowledge and testimony any Being needs is there universally for everyones consumption. Whether one be Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, Pagan etc etc etc. Its the claim of superiority and separate specialness of Religious cults, marking others as inferior and ignorant which is being attacked, and rightfully so!!!! 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptilesRomans 1:18-23 (ESV)

Dan you do not see because you do not want to. It iss plain to see that there is no excuse for any type of ignorance in the other scripture as it clearly states the knowledge is there everywhere one looks in creation. I'll repost the verse again so you can reread it. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse Romans 1:16-20 (KJV) No one could miss this contradiction unless they wished to. This is the reason why I believe you don't see any contradictions. You choose not to.

The Bible is a mess Dan and here is a perfect example of two scriptures which totally contradict one another. In Acts you have the author telling us that people have worshipped pagans in ignorance and God merely winks at this ignorance. Then we have the scripture in Romans where the author tells us there is no excuse for any such ignorance as nature itself testifies of God. You may ignore all the contradictions that have been presented to you, but they are there and many are irreconcilable. Is there any wonder the Bible breeds confusion on many fronts?

I think its important to add that he first loved us knowing beforehand all our flaws and foibles even before we were born and if it is God's will that none should perish than God darn it no one is going to perish IMHO. Unless of course if God is a failure, which I don't beive him to be. But if you listen to some Fundamentalist with all the people they project going to hell and the small portion who believe as they do being the only ones saved then from those numbers God would surely be a failure. I personally feel the only failure is our awareness and perceptions. It seems clear to me that everyone involved in this discussions has extended much time and energy into seeking God with their whole hearts within their lives. The differences in the way we perceive the punitive nature of God though baffles me. Why hasn't God made this clearer to those who diligently seek him? We're all knocking here, we're all asking and we're all seeking and yet we are all getting different answers? Are we all knocking, seeking and asking with an open mind or are we doing so with preconceived ideas and notions ahead of time, that we have been indoctrinated with from birth. Are we asking for easy pat answers that we want to hear or are we open to the truth, which can make us have to delve deeper and work harder than we really care to?

Could you expound on that a little if you are feeling up to it? I'm missing something even after reading it with your information. I had thought it was a typo at first.

I have many favorite Bible Verses but if I had to pick just one it would be: If God is for us, who can be against us? Romans 8:31 (ESV) My favorite qoute of any type was the saying written on the outside of the Temple of the Oracle at Delphi: "KNOW THYSELF"

Good points guys. I knew there had to be more I just couldn't rattle any out of my head. Something is urging me that there is even a better example in the NT somewhere.

I would think the story of the rich man begging Abraham to allow the beggar Lazarus to even give him water or help save his 5 brothers from the torments of Hell would be a good argument against the possibility of another interceding. But then again in the NT you have Yeshua being able to intercede for everyone on the planet?

In Christ there is no male or female and yet it seems that God is more than just a little partial to one sex in humans over the other. This always mystifies me.

A lot of children never get to feel what love and security means. How could they ever comprehend what the love and security of God is unless they experience God directly. How coud they be condemned. It's like punishing a blind man with one leg for not finishing a race.

Sorry but it isnt special in that aspect either lol Tao te Ching and all the rest have been touched by man and why there are variations in almost all religious texts. Breathe in and breathe out!

This may be bizzaro logic, especially since I don't believe in any portion of Revelations, but if what you believe is true RevRainbow shouldn't Christians want the One World government as soon as possible and be helping to bring it about as soon as possible, so that Christ can start His reign and the rapture happens as soon as possible. Doesn't doing anything to delay it just further delay the inevitable? <in a monotone authoritave voice> Desist and surrender, resistance in futile!

So if you do believe that there are such people as Good Samaritans that can arise indepently of any knowledge of Christ or the Bible in other cultures around the world, then you must ask yourself how they came to be. One thought that might cross your mind is that this "potential" might exist in all peoples. Then you might naturally ask yourself what is this potential which rests in all peoples and where does it originate. Why do some have it and others seem to lack it completely. My own answers to these self questions are that this potential is the spark of the Divine which exists at the core of every being on our planet. These sparks are eternal flames or energy which can never be destroyed. They can be hidden under very dense objects and hard to find, but they also can also be fueled to create large bon fires hard to ignore. Love and virtues feed the flames and help to keep it dynamic, sometime growing to bon fire proportions (such as Saints), while Fear and what you would call Sin create a static shell which hides it so well it can only be found by expert PaleoSpirtualtists. Think of our own dimension and the physical properties of water. The smallest crack or opening and water quickly flows in to fill it. Now try to imagine the Spirit of God something that vibrates at such an imperceptble rate and highly more dynamic and fluid than any liquid or element in our Universe. Every niche, crock and nanny would be filled by its presence. This why I feel one only has to figuratively open their heart a tiny wee bit to have God come in and fill it.

This is what I love hearing and what I would hope that all the Worlds Major Religions would help teach and focus on!!!!!!!!! This is what I feel any message based in Truth would be all about. The sad thing though is that many of the world systems seem to hint at an exclusivity that seems to narrows ones views and separate us. Unity, tolerance and acceptance are antithetical to its viewpoints and walls are erected without doorways. Sometimes it takes a person with a sledgehammer constantly pounding against these walls to poke a few holes in them before each side starts to see some light. Isn't one of the things a lot of Christians and other religions fear most, which would help create a more stable and peaceful planet is a One world Religion and Government? A religion which taught us about our similarities in our beliefs of the Fatherhood/Motherhood of the Divine and a true brotherhood. A brotherhod that teaches of the importance of the worth of each individual in our quest for the survival and evolution of our species and the planet. Not just the importance of each individual in our own present system but the value of the system we leave to those future generations who we learn to value as highly as oursleves. Is such a system possible or are we eternally doomed to our own indiviual dogmas where we chase our own tails, because we have no vision and can only see what wags right in front of our face?

I also believe all things are possible for God as well, and if it is God's will that none should perish. Who or what could possibly deny that. I hear a cacophony of voices shouting "but a person has free will" yea yea yea and what effect does this "free will" have on growing old and dying? NONE! A persons free will can not break through the barriers and parameters God has set in any system. It's God's system and His game, He created, for His enjoyment, so His will that none should Perish is all but a done deal IMHO.

One summer I was walking past the school yard where I played basketball and some Fundalmentalist Preacher was proselytizing with a mic and loudspeaker system setup. My ego thought it would be fun to walk up to him and have some fun in respect to the contradictions in the Bible. I started heading towards the makeshift stage when I noticed out of the crowd one of the heroin junkies from the neighborhood who was in very bad shape approached the stage in tears and gave his life to Christ and accepted Jesus. I then realized that the Salvation message was probably one of few this poor guy could accept due to his upbringing in our society. No matter how I feel about the Bible this guy was heading in the right direction. A step up from where he was. I think we all are currently worshipping the Divine from a perspective we resonate with at the present moment. No two people are the same. More importantly we should never codemn and demonize others who don't resonate with life and the Divine the same way we do.

Dan there are moral stories and lessons that are to be learned even in Fairy Tales and Fables. Fairy Tales and Fables can be quite effective in getting a specific message across or teaching moral lessons to others. The Bible is a tool Dan and it can be used for creative or destructive purposes, depending on ones intent and sophistication. It has been used to heal and maim, praise and slander, free some and enslave others. I'm not a slave to it's teachings, promises, threats or warnings. I am however a willing servant to an Agape Loving Entity who bears all, endures all and never fails us.

Does the act and interpretation of "tongues" ever occur at some of these meetings Pete?

Thanks for the notes.

I think the good Samaritan story tells us that one doesn't even have to have knowledge of Christ or ever heard of a Bible to be a child of God. Those who love their neighbors as themself and seek God with their whole heart and mind are the elect of God. Love, compassion, forgiveness and tolerance these are the traits and the labels which makes one of Christ Mind and qualify those who deserve the Label of Christian. One's belief about the authorship of a Book plays no part whatsoever in whether one is a Christian or not. I would rather be known as the vilest beast on the planet and exemplify the traits I metioned above than be a Bible believing fraud who condems my brother and sisters because they don't put their faith in the Bible and believe the same as I do. The Bible is a tool nothing more. You are responsible for how you use it. It may be chipped and flaw but once a hammer gets worn do you toss it away because it isn't perfect? You may lay it down and pick up something more effective in the future once you are allowed access to such.

People quote Shakespeare and other revered writers all the time as well, does that prove anything of infallibility? of course not! One can learn about various traditions of Yeshua in many non Biblical writings Dan. The Aquarian Gospel, The Gnostic Gospels etc etc. What made you decide the Bible was the authentic representation of Yeshua. Was it because someone told you so and that the Bible was the inerrant word of God that you made your decision? Guess what this person was either ignorant of the facts or they out right lied to you. The Bible as you hold it in your hands has not and has never been an inerrant work dictated word for word by any intelligent being. The early "orthodox" church made sure of that.