Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Mythology is the process of saying that the old gods aren't real. The Wheel turns.

You did better than I did. My error message said flat out that I had been banned. I've been thrown out of better places than this.

This is a good jumping off point -- so to speak. My ban seems to have been lifted. I don't know why I was banned. I don't know why the ban was lifted. The affront remains. I'm back. Maybe. I'll know in a moment.

There are also the Satanic verses. It seems that Mohamed decided, after the fact, that some of the verses he had been given had come from Satan.

It's obvious to an adult, who reads at an adult level with adult understanding. I read the Book. It's not my problem, that the protagonist, in this work of fiction, is a deeply flawed character.

I find the overt, conscious, conspiracies much more troubling.

Perhaps, the sadistic joy of handing out failing grades? Of punishing failure? Of spreading fear and guilt? Why does a sadistic fiend do anything?

I've had a few days to think things over. In the end, this is a losing proposition. America already has deeply held narratives about Lady Liberty. Nothing will change this. In addition, there is the weight of history. Lady Liberty has been in New York Harbor for a long time. She's not going anywhere. Like it or not, that's the facts. In addition, there are much more egregious violations of the Establishment Clause, both holdovers from the Eisenhower administration of the 1950's. There is the new National Motto -- In God we trust -- all over the money. There is also the forced insertion into The Pledge of Allegiance -- Under God. Next to these affronts, the Statue is small change.

The old gods have changes of name and form, but they never go away. For instance, Lady Luck. Nobody has to tell us who Lady Luck is. Mother Nature looks like a lot of the old Earth goddesses. Cupid is out in the open. He's Cupid, bow and arrows intact. At least his love arrows. We don't talk about his lead tipped arrows. Old Man Winter is still here. So is Jack Frost. Father Time is still with us. So is Baby New Year and the Old Year. Death rides a pale horse. We know who the Reaper is. The old gods are with us in abundance. Look at the songs we have about Santa. "He's making a list, checking it twice, he always knows who's naughty or nice..... "He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good.... That is one creepy old god with a beard, flying around the sky, punishing the wicked and rewarding the good. Of course, Lady Liberty is a personification. The gods are personifications. At what point does celebrating Lady Liberty, become an impermissible endorsement of religion? Is a change of name or a change of form enough to turn an old god into a secular icon? We haven't even mentioned Nativity scenes. You know, those secular displays of a Winter Holiday. Or Easter, where we celebrate fertility as symbolized by a rabbit -- and eggs. It takes willful blindness or deep ignorance, not to see the old gods everywhere. Lady Liberty is only one example.

If they both exist, a war god like Mars could impersonate YHVH. Is that what You're asking? Or do you mean that two entities, known only as God could impersonate each other? It's pure if, but why not?

The contradiction is obvious. God repents having created Man? That's a big Cosmic oops.

I would like to see the counter argument. So far, you are making a solid case. I'm still thinking about it. There might be a Constitutional violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

What I find painful is to have you speaking for Atheism. Your understanding lacks depth. Your twisting of my words lacks decency.

A truly all knowing God would know -- in advance -- every change of mind that he will ever have. Which means that there is no change of mind.

I'm not clear on what you are asking. Are you presuming that both gods exist -- and their followers can't tell the difference? Is that what you're asking?

Your understanding of Atheism is not deep. When you express Atheist views, it is deeply painful.

You raise interesting points. I have to think about this. Welcome to the board. You look like fun.

We can always spin our philosophic wheels on a special pleading. I don't know why you insist on doing this -- but go right ahead if it pleases you to do so.

If God is metaphor, then God is the male equivalent of Mother Nature. Is Mother Nature real? Not in any literal way. Sunshine, clouds, birds, trees, etc. yes. But Mother Nature is not real. God is just Mother Nature in drag. People get really hot over poetic imagery. Somehow, God is supposed to be real. God is the Lord. While we're at it -- the whole belief vs. Atheism thing...……..

If the expulsion from the Garden of Eden is a metaphor; it then follows that Adam and Eve were metaphor. In which case, the Fall was metaphor. The implications are serious. Is this what you are saying? If Adam and Eve and the Fall are all metaphor -- why not God? If the Fall was not literal -- what was the sacrifice of Jesus about? Was Jesus also a metaphor?

Your points here are all valid. Too much for this thread. If you care to start a separate thread, dealing with goodness issues, I will be pleased to join you.

Unattainable facts about God? I think that's for each individual to decide for themselves. I'm an Apatheist. I'm tired of arguing metaphysics. Without facts, all we have is an argument. I don't care whether or not God exists. Beyond love. Beyond hate. There is not caring.

Then you agree with me? We have no objective facts about God. None at all.

If you think that we have objective facts about God; then by all means, list them. It's going to be a short list, since even "God exists" does not qualify. We can't even define God. Without common reference points, we can't even agree on what we are discussing. The only objective fact we have about God is -- We have no objective facts about God. I want to be clear here that I am not taking an Atheist stance. Possibly, Agnostic. God's existence is not an objective fact. God's non-existence is not an objective fact. We have no objective facts about God.

The current system for spreading the word, would make perfect sense, if God were evil -- or a fantasy. If the all powerful really were in charge, and was good, and cared -- for one thing, I would expect a lot fewer books. Only the real books would be published. They would agree with each other and we would not need professional clergy to explain them. We would not, for instance, have the Bhagavad Gita and the Koran. Say what you will about contradictions within the Bible. The World's great sacred books do not agree with each other. Or, as you say, no books at all. If God were both real and good.