Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Imagine the complaints. The Moon is made of green cheese and they're lactose intolerant.

Two observations: 1. Where is the edge? If the Earth is flat, there has to be an edge. 2. What about the other people, who believe with equal fervor -- in the Hollow Earth? Like the different religions, they can't both be right. They can both be wrong. Apatheist that I am -- The clueless beliefs of foolish people are not my problem. If they want to ignore external reality -- I'm not going to get into it with them. I'm not beyond laughing at them. I lack sainthood.

When objective evidence is ignored, we get tragic results. Things like Flat Earthers. People of great faith and no valid supporting evidence. Many of them cite the Bible for support.

I had to drop out of a few Facebook Atheist groups. The question came up -- yet again -- If you had to choose a religion, which religion would you choose? I decided to go for humor. I said, "Agnostic". Guess what? These groups have no sense of humor. It was a Fuster CLuck. They ganged up. I left. From their reaction, you would think I had walked into a church and pissed on the altar.

Yes.

That was interesting. I'm not sure how it answers my question, but alright.

I've overdosed. In particular, I'm thinking of the time I was at a party. I was having a perfectly lovely time, chatting trivia, when the subject of religion came up. I was asked what my religion was. I said, Atheist. Next thing I knew, I was confronted with tearful pleadings for mutual tolerance. Too many stupid conversations. I say Atheist -- I get a more or less standard of collection of stupid responses. I say Agnostic, I get the other standard collection of stupid responses. Then again, there's the crap arguments going on between the Atheists, The Agnostics and the Antitheists. Enough. I can't do it any more. I'm sick of arguing trivia -- and there's no trivia like metaphysics. Arguments about God. Nobody has anything resembling objective facts -- but oh, the passions. What gets me is how people advocate for their labels -- not their actual views -- their labels -- as though their lives were on the line. It's so toxic.

I have just looked over Dan's reply to your comments above. It is an analysis between "God" and "Allah". As usual, the tail is wagging the dogma.

Yes. I thought the description of Jodo was particularly interesting. It shows how far some of Japanese Buddhism has drifted from the source. Amida Buddha does not liberate. They have gone off the rails. They can chant --" Nammu Amida Bhutsu" until doomsday. All they have done is turned Amida into a god. An external god.

Apatheism: Not caring whether or not God exists. For the people who are tired of arguing non-belief (Atheism) and not knowing (Agnosticism). For those who simply don't care and don't want to argue metaphysics.

To my understanding -- The forgiveness and mercy sited here, are for those who become Muslims. Those who refuse the call, are to receive neither forgiveness nor mercy. Yes. Very similar to Christian values. It's the same shoe on the other foot.

To my understanding -- such as it is -- the gods are personifications. Consider the mighty Thor of Norse mythology. He is a storm god. He is a battle god. He is the Chaos of the storm. He is the Chaos of battle. Consider Loki, whose appellation is "Mischief Maker." Sometimes, he is Thor's friend. Sometimes, he is Thor's enemy. Loki is also a personification of Chaos. Sometimes, the two forms of Chaos are friends, working together. Sometimes, they are enemies in harsh opposition. Such is the inconsistent nature of Chaos. Consider, Medicine Buddha. No mere deity concerned with healing. Medicine Buddha is the personification of healing. He is healing. This is the manner in which I regard all the gods. Including the big "G" -- God. Alas, the world is in the grip of literalists -- who truly can not see a metaphor staring them in the face. People know well enough that Mother Nature is poetic imagery. She is Sunshine and flowers and trees and wind and all the rest of it. Somehow, God is supposed to be "real". What is God -- but Mother Nature in drag?

Have you tried reading the Book of Mormon? Mark Twain was right. It's like chloroform in print. (His description. Not mine.)

Most of it. Several times. I skimmed my way through the begats. Instructions for the building of the Temple were a snooze. A lot of the prophets were about the war against Paganism. Isaiah in particular. A master piece of dirty propaganda. It's been a while since I looked it up. Kings? It's some great comic material. I suggest looking up the Witch of Endor. King Solomon is upset. He wants to talk things over with Samuel. His dreams aren't working and the Urim and Thumim have failed him, so he want's to talk to Samuel's ghost. He can't. He has already had all the spirit mediums put to death. The man at his elbow has news for the King. "Majesty? I know a woman with a familiar spirit." Think of this in modern terms. The President is really stressed out. He needs to score some grass. But what can he do? His war on drugs has been so successful. The man at his elbow says -- "Mr. President? I know a dealer who can get us some really prime stuff. Anything you want." Some things really don't change. It's all there -- if we can read between the lines.

At this point in my life, my label of first choice is Apa-theist. Someone who doesn't care whether or not God exists. I am so tired of arguing the true meaning of Atheist and Agnostic -- and which is the truest expression of what ever. Bleeping crap. I don't care anymore. There's no more steam in the boiler. Other people can argue the metaphysics and nuances. I'm done. At least, for now.

Number one: What would it take to get me to believe in God? You didn't specify. The God of the Bible? In truth, I don't know what it would take to get me to believe. The thing is -- God would know. This has not happened yet. What am I to make of this? God doesn't exist? God doesn't care enough to intervene? God does not know, and is not all knowing, so isn't God? God can't intervene, is not all powerful, so isn't God? Piffle. If God wants to change my mind, then God will give me a reason that I will find valid. Until then -- Piffle. Number two: Does it actually matter whether or not God exists? Here's a simple thought experiment. Pretend that God exists. What changes? Nothing. Pretend that God does not exist. What changes? Nothing. At the end of the day, God either "is" or "is not". Belief, non-belief and disbelief are all equally irrelevant. We can't even agree on a basic definition for God. That really makes the debate silly. People sure get steamed over it. Believers, non-believers and disbelievers, all getting strung out, arguing over the existence of something, that they can't even agree what it is they are arguing over. We can also fall back on the wisdom of Buddha. "Fire is hot. Ice is cold. All the gods in all the heavens will not change this." I don't know if Buddha actually said it. It's a great thought. Number three: How different is Animism from Pantheism? From what I understand of real Animist cultures -- they don't make a distinction between the natural and super-natural. I tread carefully, when talking about Polytheism. It's a lot more complicated than adding an "S" to god or God. Having said that -- My favorite definition of Atheist is -- "Someone who has one less god than a Monotheist".

1. Even in a work of absolute fiction, it is still possible to find true facts. Ice is cold. Fire is hot. Human blood is red. The story is still fiction. 2. What if we decline to make ourselves crazy, with silly speculation? Seriously, get a grip. 3. A lot of people -- some on You Tube -- firmly believe in the Flat Earth. Other people persist in believing in the Hollow Earth. People believe in strange, silly things. I don't care. It's not my problem. If people want to believe in Bible inerrancy, or Big Foot, or Gremlins, or Santa, or the Tooth Fairy -- this is also not my problem. Or your problem. I used to have a friend who insisted that she didn't believe in vitamins. Again, not my problem. If people refuse to accept proven facts, and live in reality -- it's their issue. Not mine.

I've done some reading in the Koran. Much like the Bible; good and bad stuff. They can both be cherry picked to prove anything. There is a lot of content about Damnation for the unbeliever.

Of course. And many miracles have been exposed as frauds. There is no virtue in being fooled by bogus evidence.

Yes. The new discoveries in physics, about the properties of space, are amazing. It's an exciting time to be alive.

Thank you for your honesty. Why are you here?

There are new ideas in physics about the energetic properties of empty space. No god required.

Yes. Just so. A lot of Christians have weird, silly fantasies, about Witches, Pagans, magic, the occult, etc. It has all the reality of a Halloween witch riding on her broom. It is an affliction that real Pagans have to endure. Even ex-Pagans, who remember some of the drooling morons that they have encountered. Christians can be a weird lot. Who else would accuse Atheists of worshipping Satan? Of course, they don't get Pagans.

I'm going to split a few hairs with you. There is Deism. The religion of Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson. A god set things into motion. No revelation. No Scripture. No church. No answering prayer. A strictly impersonal deity. No information about this god is available. There is Monotheism, of which Christianity is one example, and Dan is our most outspoken champion. Deism is not Monotheism. We have to be clear on that point. Arguments for a creator god do not exclude Deism. An Atheist does not believe. An Agnostic does not know. An Apatheist does not care. Any combination is possible. I am an Apatheist -- Agnostic -- Atheist. I don't care. I don't know and I don't believe. You may be thinking of the Apathetic Agnostic Church. Their motto is -- "We don't know and we don't care." I received their ordination in 2002. Pantheists redefine God. God is no longer a supernatural entity. God is now everything and everything is God. Nature is Sacred. Also the natural order and the Universe. All terms for the same thing. Anti-Theists are Atheists with issues.

As you wish. I need a valid reason to believe in God. Not believing is my default position. I said not believing. Not disbelieving. There is a difference. Remember, please. I am an Agnostic Atheist. I am open to adjusting my views -- if I find a valid reason. Any foolish reason will not serve. I am also, at this point in my life, an Apatheist. I can't even find a reason why it matters, if God exists or not. Life is short. I'm tired of silly arguments that go nowhere at all.