Jonathan H. B. Lobl

This isn't true. Consider the passions of Captain Ahab, towards his great white whale. Fictional characters can care a lot. Any fictional character, including fictional gods -- can care about anything. It depends on how they were written. or spoken, in the case of oral traditions. . The God of the Bible: "I am the Lord your God. You will have no other gods before me. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous god......." The God of the Koran: "There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his profit." What do we learn from this? The God of the Bible does not claim to be the only God. He does insist on being the only God that we worship. Unless we go to the verses where he is the only God. The case can be made either way. I'm not clear on whether the God of the Koran insists that he is the only God -- or if he is the only God to be worshiped. The Koran is used and abused just like the Bible. If you know the Suras well enough, you can prove anything. In either case, the Abrahamic God is passionate about being the big G. Which God we follow, if we must follow, is -- in my opinion -- a literary choice. Or a culture based decision. There is the additional option, of regarding both of them, as the same God with a different name. Some will agree. Some won't. I will leave that argument to the people who care. I don't care. I suppose, in the end, it comes down to belief.

An addendum: It took me a while to see this part. Now, my response.

If you're going to read my emotional state -- at least make an effort to get it right. That's not flustered. That's exhaustion. There is a difference. As usual, you will insist on your own insufferable spin.

I never finished reading the Koran. The parts I did read were so Biblical in feel. It all seemed so familiar. History is a thing of sadness. So many real deaths, commanded by works of fiction. I can't bring myself to take sides. It's all so horrible. At this layer of history, the Koran is more dangerous. The Bible had a head start. Back to the thread. When we ask which God is counterfeit -- distinct from authentic -- doesn't that suggest that at least one -- or both gods -- actually exists? If we are only talking about their books -- the real issue is plagerism.

Thank you for your concern. It's just Dan, showing us how Christian he is. Displaying his values. His empathy. His ethics.

Such amazing consistency. Truly, you will never change.

Thank you for understanding. Well, it doesn't matter any more. I've let it go. "The Dude abides."

What work of fiction, is worthy of the death penalty?

This is good. Oh, we have our clashes -- but I love these core values.

Such wonderful consistency. You'll never change. Seriously. I'm done arguing.

I am experiencing philosophic drift. When I was working with Atheism -- or Agnosticism -- What I got from you was a mixture of smugness, superiority, and lack of respect. And arguments. Lots and lots of arguments. And putting up with your re-defining of Atheism and Agnosticism. Now, after all those insults, you tell me that you could understand those positions. Interesting. But you don't understand not caring. Interesting. I have discovered that it doesn't matter. That none of it matters. Arguments over Scripture, just to be told that I don't understand. Arguments over metaphysics, just to be told that I don't understand. Why? What have I gotten from all those efforts? Nothing. It's like going through life arguing about the existence of Santa. I can't do it any more. I'm worn out with this nonsense. The wind has gone out of my sail. And no. I don't care whether or not God exists. At the end of the day, it changes nothing. A simple thought experiment: Pretend, for the sake of argument, that God exists. What changes? Nothing. Pretend, for the sake of argument, that God does not exist. What changes? Nothing. We have no objective facts about God. None at all. So I can take the Agnostic label. Because I don't know. Nobody does. Or I could take the Atheist label, because I don't believe. Belief is silly without any facts at all. Bleeping crap -- what's the point? It doesn't matter. And I'm done. Oh. As to your perceptions of what's beneficial -- your issues. Not mine.

An addendum: I was too slow with my editing. The Boy Scouts of America won't admit Atheist Scouts. Not that a Scout has to say that he's an Atheist. Atheists can be Scouts -- if they just shut up and pretend belief. Of course, if they admit to being Atheists, after being admitted, they risk getting kicked out of Scouting. The same way that Atheist adults can lose their jobs, or their residence, or friends and family, if they are foolish enough to come out of the religious closet.

In my opinion, manners are good and civility is a virtue. For all that, the meek do not inherit the Earth. They get eaten. People who don't demand respect, don't get any. It starts in such small ways. Silly things. Insignificant things. Forcing God into the Pledge of Allegiance. Such a silly thing to fight over. You're a patriot, right? You can just mumble or cough over the offensive words. A religious national motto. "In God we trust." Just a little something to help bring us together. It doesn't mean anything. It's not religion, right? Prayer at a High School Football game? You don't want to make a fuss and be rude, do you? Blasphemy laws? Well, we all want to be polite, don't we.? It doesn't mean anything. It's just manners. You don't really want to be rude and hurt anybody's feelings, right? Sabbath Blue laws? Well, there are social norms. A two ton monument to the Ten Commandments in front of the Court House? You don't have a problem with civics, do you? All over America, police cars and Public Schools proclaim -- "In God we trust." Well, it's the National Motto. You have national pride don't you? A Nativity scene in front of the Public Library? What are you? Some kind of Grinch? It's a Winter Festival. It's for the children. Do you hate children? Then one day, you look up. Atheism is a criminal offence. Like Saudi Arabia or Iran where Atheism gets you the death penalty. Or Indonesia, where Atheism is a psychiatric disorder. So many little, tiny things. Like snowflakes. They have no weight. But if you have enough of them, trees break and roofs collapse. Maybe, having good manners is not the highest priority. Because when the pious become cultural bullies, sometimes, being rude is all we've got. At minimum, it can feel great.

Polite society? The culturally dominant get to proclaim the glory of their faith, while the rest of us whisper or go silent? Screw that. You're making a case that I've been too nice. I'll take it under advisement.

I'm trying to find a safe, neutral word that won't get everybody's panties in a bunch. Religious people tend to react badly to Atheism. They take it as an attack. Alright. You don't like I don't care? You find a word that works. Seriously. You're the master of nuance. Do you think you can do better?

It is religion that touches your life. Not God. Religion exists. By all means, rethink your preconceptions about God. It's not like the results matter, either way.

If we are following the analogy of being a house guest..... One moment, I'm having a conversation at the dinner table. The next moment, I'm outside and locked out. I am then wondering -- What just happened? Why did it happen? Who did it?

There are plenty of good things in the Bible. It requires cherry picking, but they are there.

Do you remember the Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie? This is what it was based on.

They have my Yahoo e-mail. I've seen it.

The operative word in my error message was banned. That takes the ambiguity out.

I've been thrown out of better places. I'm still affronted. Not even an explanation, if it was deliberate. Much less an apology -- if it really was a malfunction. Either way -- unacceptable rudeness.

This is your analysis? That I have an attitude? I tried the Atheist label. What could be more harmless than -- I don't believe? The religious took it as a personal affront. As though I were repudiating everything that mattered to them. All those silly arguments about Scripture and metaphysics...….. I tried the Agnostic label. What could be more harmless than -- I don't know? The religious took it as indecisive. Wishy washy. Spineless. You quoted Romans at me. "God spits out those who are neither hot nor cold." All those silly arguments about knowledge and what is knowable -- distinct from belief. I went with Apatheist. What could be more harmless than -- I don't care? No more arguments about belief. No more arguments about knowledge. Now -- you think I have an attitude? Because I don't care and I'm tired of arguing? I'm going to stop now -- before I say something that I'll have to apologize for.

As a word, Apatheism is already in common usage. On Youtube.com, a search under Apatheism brings up a lot of videos. Not surprisingly, some of them are from Christians and Muslims, who can't stand the idea, that people don't care whether or not God exists. It shows how mistaken I can be. I was sure that Apatheism was the label that no one could find fault with. The pious truly won't leave anyone alone.