Jonathan H. B. Lobl

There is something here which needs repeating. I need a reason to believe. I don't need a reason to not believe.

In the Gospels, the risen Christ commands his followers to "spread the Good News". The godless have no such obligation. Over the years, I have met various kinds of Polytheists. None of them were ever concerned over the beliefs of others. None of them ever tried to tell me that I was on the wrong path.

This has not been my experience. My taste in pastry is a trivial thing. Nobody cares. When I'm challenged about my Atheism, there is real passion behind it. People take it as a personal attack on themselves.

In the Planet of the Apes movies, we see a variety of real places and things. The New York City subway tunnels. Grand Central station. The Statue of Liberty. Despite this, I can say with absolute certainty, that none of it actually happened in real life.

This is all analogous to the question of God's existence. We have an appeal to personal taste. Alright. Let us examine personal taste in this context. Whether I prefer more cinnamon or less cinnamon, we can all agree that cinnamon is present. This brings us to personal taste in God. I love God -- or -- I hate God -- are personal taste. We have yet to determine -- like the cinnamon -- that God is actually present in the mix.

Alright. You have me on this one. There are some really awful reasons to believe that God exists. Like the argument that a lot of people do -- so I should join them in their belief. Allow me to rephrase. There are no valid reasons to believe that God exists. None at all.

I prefer gentle nuance. Sometimes, gentle nuance doesn't work. When I'm confronted with unthinking dogmatism, gentle reasoned responses don't cut it.

What? Seriously, what? You think I'm displaying temper? Because I don't believe? I tried being nice. What a shame. That doesn't seem to be working with you. I do not find the Bible a credible source of history, wisdom, or much of anything else positive. You want to believe? Believe. I'm not here to change you. You are not my problem. I don't care. Understand this. I do not take the Bible, or any part of it seriously. I don't need to attack it. At this point, there is nothing about it that I take seriously, on any level. Much like your beliefs about God -- the Bible is also not my problem. You want to believe? Believe. There is nothing there that I would want the burden of defending. I find it -- silly. Yes. On reflection, this is why I don't believe in your God. The whole structure of belief is just so -- silly. I'm not even attacking. I can't take any of this serious long enough. Go ahead. Point to your pious frauds with the retroactive insertions. I don't care. None of this is my problem. It's your issues.

A few brief words about my Atheist "faith". Based on my personal observations and recorded history -- I think there is a high order of probability that tomorrow morning, there will be a sunrise. This is not absolute. Something could happen to destroy the Sun. Something could happen to change the Earth's rotation. These things are not likely, but they are possible. The greater probability is that sunrise will proceed as usual. I don't have "faith." I have expectations based on experience, observation and probability, but not "faith." Sometimes -- frequently -- I am mistaken. When I am presented with persuasive evidence of my error, I yield. Sometimes, with poor grace, but I yield.

I do not share your beliefs about the Bible as a trustworthy document. Since I have no desire to be mean or uncivil, I suggest we leave it at that.

My "goalposts" as you put it, have not moved at all. There are no reasons to believe in God. None at all. Because we have no objective, verifiable facts about God. None at all. Only arguments, baseless assertions, faith and Scripture -- and twisted reasoning. When I'm told that the "evidence" requires faith -- I understand this to mean that there is no evidence. Subjective evidence may bring comfort and joy to the believer. It does nothing to persuade the non-believer.

As ministers of ULC -- the church that ordains anyone who asks -- for free -- for life -- with no questions -- we are all free to believe -- or not -- anything. We need no proofs or justification for what we do or don't believe. Unless we want to change someone else. If we want to change someone else, we must provide justification for changing beliefs. That means providing objective, verifiable evidence.

Are we talking about something trivial -- like what you had for lunch? Something like that requires no evidence. God's existence is a different sort of claim. Something of such significance requires a different level of evidence. Objective, verifiable evidence. 1. Are we having a problem with communication at the most basic level? I was explicit. Go back over this thread. Objective, verifiable evidence. Not "subjective". "Objective, verifiable evidence." You have nothing. 2. Again, I did not ask what is evidence to you. I said, "Objective, verifiable evidence." Again, you have nothing.

This is good, but I think you are making something simple into something complicated. I need a reason to believe. I don't need a reason to not believe.

What a shame that you have nothing to back that up. A choice requires evidence.

Respect for all beliefs? No matter how absurd? Or morally repugnant? There are plenty of people on YouTube who are intent on believing that the Earth is flat. Most of them use the Bible as justification. Are we obliged to respect their beliefs? How about the Young Earth Creationists, who believe that the Earth is less than 6,000 years old? Respect? Who believe that the Earth is the center of everything. Respect? During the American Civil War, preachers used Leviticus 21 to justify slavery. Respect? The Book of Mormon teaches the curse of Ham. God darkens the skin of those who need punishment. Respect? What about the sincere belief that witches should be killed? Respect? That Homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off tall buildings? Respect? That women must submit to their husbands in all things, so that rape within marriage isn't possible. Respect? Down to specifics. How about the Christian, who truly believes that all Atheists are doomed to Eternal Damnation? Respect? Well, what about the Muslims, who devoutly believe that all Christians are going to Hell, for not accepting Muhammed. Respect? What about the Muslims, who believe devoutly, that when a Muslim leaves Islam for Christianity -- the apostate should be put to death. Respect? In Saudi Arabia and Iran and other places under Sharia -- Atheists are put to death by National Law. Respect? Really? Respect for all beliefs? What a silly proposition. I don't think so. This is nothing but a deepity. That is -- something that seems profound at first glance, but turns out to be absurd on closer inspection.

God's forgiveness is a separate can of worms. I'd rather not open that in this thread.

Whether God is worthy of worship was never part of this discussion. Only reasons to believe that God exists. Still, a bit of humor. "When I get angry at people, I stop and ask. 'What would God do?' Then I try to drown them."

In fairness to Dan, the only topic on the table, was reasons to believe that God exists. God's obvious evil, is not relevant to this discussion.

Logical fallacies can be fun. "Eat **. Billions of flies can't be wrong."

1. Then your evidence is not objective. It is not verifiable. It is not evidence. Faith is not evidence. Neither is it knowledge. It is faith. 2. Seriously? Evidence? 3. Rabbinic authorities have never had a problem with this "evidence". That's it? Your objective, verifiable evidence? I think we can slam the lid on this one. Think back to the start of this thread. You wanted to know how an Atheist could not believe. Based on your presentation, my answer remains the same. Because there is no reason to believe. None at all. Because we have no objective facts about God. None at all.

An addendum: Evolution theory was never part of this discussion. Your entire argument -- aside from demonstrating that you don't understand evolution theory at all -- has consisted of Evolution no -- so God yes. This is not in any way, objective verifiable proof that your God exists. That is, your God, distinct from either Deism or Pantheism. If you please, the objective, verifiable evidence, that you insist is available.

You have objective, verifiable reasons to believe in God? Not any God. Your God? Please. Get on with it. So far, everything you have to say could apply to Deism. Where is the proof of your God?

1. Reality is not determined by popularity. There are many different religions with many followers. They can't all be right. They can all be mistaken. 2. You do not understand evolution theory. What you have given me is -- You don't understand. Therefore God. Even if evolution were false -- it's not. Even if there were a Creator God -- no proof. It would still remain to be established that it is your God -- No evidence. 3. As stated so well by Penjilette, -- "The Bible is equal parts Science, History and Pizza." 4. You are providing reasons to believe. I need reasons to believe. I don't need reasons to not believe. 5. Once upon a time, there was an empty tomb. So? 🙄

No snappy comebacks? I'm waiting. Please. Not in the box.