Jonathan H. B. Lobl

"My karma ran over my dogma."

We have come full circle in this argument. I think more than once. Since we are back where we started; I will restate the original proposition. There are no objective, verifiable facts about God. None at all. Some people choose to believe in God -- despite the total lack of objective, verifiable facts. I say -- let them. Truly, the beliefs of others are not my concern. Neither do I need to tell anyone else what to believe or disbelieve. It's not my problem If someone chooses to believe in the absence of facts -- it's their issue. Not mine. The question behind this thread was simple -- and directed largely at you. "Why don't you believe?" We can keep the answer simple. "Why would I believe?" Beyond -- "I don't know" -- and -- "I don't believe" -- there is -- "I don't care." It works for me. I'm ready to let it go. If anybody wants to come up with real evidence -- Objective, verifiable, evidence -- we can always revisit. We can also continue to ignore evidence which requires faith. Anything which is "good enough" for those who "believe".

For me, it is enough to take the Bible off the table as evidence. Life is short. I can't be bothered dissecting every minor flaw. Or every major flaw. It doesn't matter. If we start down the path of arguing each detail -- we will be at it forever and the argument will never end. No. It's not my burden and it's also not yours.

I am detecting Hostility. Every group has social norms. Every group. If you wish to engage your fellow ministers in a friendly manner -- it is helpful to know what the norms are. I hope that you will choose to be friendly and fit in. It's your call.

The font/size controls are at the top of the page. This is size 16. This is size 18 font. This is size 24 font. If you look at the top row, you will also find options for Bold -- Italic -- Underline -- and color. The smiley face icon is how you access the emojis. Welcome to the Board. We were all new comers. If you have trouble with board mechanics, just ask. Your fellow ministers will assist you. Jonathan

If you can't stop shouting, the only thing you will spread will be irritation. Please stop.

Minister is the basic ULC designation. The title used is Reverend. For a small donation, a different designation or title is possible. Please. Stop shouting. It's rude.

Seriously, my Brother. If there's no place to go -- because I'm already there -- why would I search? What is there to climb? Where must I go? I have climbed that mountain. Been there. Done that. I've past the finish line. I can stop running. Meditation and contemplation are still part of my life. I'm cultivating awareness. Like a garden. My external search is done.

The Honorary Doctor of Divinity degree is not a problem. It is clearly an honorary degree. As such, it is court tested. If you want to put an "earned" doctoral degree into your resume -- when you have done no doctoral level work to "earn" it -- Good luck to you. Depending on what you do with it, you may have no problems at all. Depending on what you do with it. It might be up to a District Attorney or a judge to decide whether or not your intentions are fraudulent. I don't care what's in your heart. The law is a mine field. By all means, if you're convinced in the rightness of your case -- you go for that walk. Watch your step. Please, don't type with all caps. It's commonly understood as shouting.

This is starting to go off the rails. Are we still talking about objective evidence for God?

For this I apologize. I seriously got your intentions all wrong.

This thread has grown cold. I'm still here if anybody wants to talk. Lately, I've been working more with qigong than Reiki. The qigong is doing more for my arthritis.

You think that emoji was smiling? I took it as disdain.

Free speech is an important right. The people behind that billboard had every right to use it to proclaim their message. The people that the message was aimed at, are under no obligation to respect the message. Neither you nor meredog know anything about my understanding of Reiki. Belief is misleading and insulting. Having someone misrepresent my understanding, as belief, is very, very, annoying. All the more so, when it comes from the man who cares about precise use of language. Or says he does. This is the man who gets incensed over the use of a capital "A" for Agnostic -- talking about my beliefs. Billboards are a means of selling products to a potential customer. If people want to sell Jesus in the same manner as a laundry product -- the potential customer has the right to form an opinion, as to the quality and trustworthiness of that product. To decide if the goods are genuine or fraudulent. "Let the buyer beware." This is not an attack on Christians. It's a purchasing decision. Yes. I said that the product being sold on this particular billboard was fraudulent. Perhaps everybody would have been more happy, if I had said "shoddy" instead? No fraud intended? Just a bad product? Unworthy of purchase, but not fraudulent? Does that make you happy? Probably not. Does that make meredog happy? Probably not. But I will concede the point. Shoddy would have been a better word.

Atheists do not worry about Heaven.

"The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - " How kind of the Holy Father to note, that Atheists can do good. I'm underwhelmed by his generosity of spirit. "The Church wants all men and women to be saved." Well, glory glory. The Church wants to save our souls. Who would have guessed? Two thousand years of persuasion didn't get the job done -- but he still wants to save our souls. Of all the smug, arrogant, condescending ............. Really, you impress too easily. Which part of this is new? Aside from the overt threat of violence being muted. The church has been declawed. It's still the same church otherwise.

The feature might not work. "Ignore" is still an option.

Thank you for the confirmation. I was wondering if I had over reacted.

Lighthearted? This is what you do with personal information?

meredog knows from previous discussions that I have a background in Reiki. From the manner in which meredog intrudes Reiki into this thread, it was clearly a shot at me. The question is why. Now, I'm waiting to see if he had a reason beyond annoying me. I have grown accustomed to his pushing intellectual purity beyond all reason. This is personally insulting aimed at me.

What are you doing?

There is nothing new about fraudulent advertising, for misleading or defective products -- with unproven claims.

Perhaps, "synchronicity". These billboards were put up by the same mindset. The mindset that looks at a star filled night -- and says -- "Look! Proof of God!!". Star filled skies fill me with awe also. It is the natural. Not the supernatural. People do not understand the meaning of evidence.

You have a lengthy history of asking "what if" questions about God. You have been confusing me for years. I finally understand -- I do mean finally -- that you were not speaking of your own perspective. You are a master of language. Please be more careful. All this time, I thought what you were doing was pushing intellectual purity as an agnostic. Now, I find that I have been misunderstanding you. In future, I will try to ask better questions. My own expectations probably contributed to the miscommunications.

That is not how it came across. Please be more careful.