Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Bigfoot is the classic Black Swan. There is no good reason to think that it exists -- but it could.

I wanted to go back and make sure my position is clear. If you tell me that you can prove God exists -- with objective, verifiable evidence -- then I want to see the evidence. If you tell me that you have faith that God exists -- there's nothing to argue about. You believe. Great. I've got no problem with that. The basic Atheist position is simple. I don't believe. Nobody is saying that you can't believe.

Skepticism, like anything else, can be taken too far. When no evidence or study is good enough.

I think the ultimate placebo is prayer. It seems to make people happy. Some arguments are not worth it.

I understand. You're putting your eggs into the faith basket -- instead of the evidence basket. You don't understand me at all. I don't have a problem with this. What I do have a problem with, is confusing faith with evidence.

I suggest that next time, you start off with this statement. It would have saved a lot of pointless arguing. I would have agreed with you and that would have been the end of it.

I get that. I'm also aware that there have been medical studies, where the placebo was more effective than the therapeutic agent being tested.

In this case, more like a book with adult content. Seriously, "Bible stories for children" are their own genre. Nobody thinks that young children should have access to a full Bible. Some of that stuff could scar a child for life.

Whether placebos actually work, some of the time -- or only seem to work, some of the time -- is not important. By what ever means, a placebo will seem to provide benefit; that it does not provide. That is why useful medical research will use double blind studies. To negate the placebo effect. Placebos are an interesting topic. If you want to go into it more deeply, I suggest a separate thread. Do placebos "work"? For stress relief -- for pain reduction -- sometimes, they seem to work. Pain and stress are subjective. If a placebo seems to work, it works. For objective clinical symptoms like fever reduction? Strange. But yes. Sometimes.

That works for me. I have nothing to sell.

Some of these threads are merging in my mind, to the point where it is difficult for me to remember what the point was. Now, I'm starting to get dizzy. I think the question here was -- "Why don't you (Atheists) believe in God?". If you like, we can go back down the rabbit hole. I think the original question has been answered. We can always revisit specifics. Reliability of Scripture and such. More focus and less drift. I don't have that much left to say.

Alright. Let's talk about "We" and what is being asserted. There is the Fundamentalist We. We don't accept evolution or cosmology. Therefore, God exists. This is a positive claim. The ancient alien programs. We don't know how this could have been done. Therefore, aliens did it. This is a positive claim. Which brings us to the assertion that I made -- and to which you are now responding. We have no objective facts about God. Well? Do we have objective facts about God? Seriously. Does anybody have any objective facts about God? If such objective facts about God did exist -- I think the world of true believers would be rubbing my face in it. They don't because they can't. They have Scripture. This they shriek from the rooftops and street corners. They have "testimony" and "witness". They have threats in abundance about Perdition. There are tons of bad arguments. What they don't have is facts. Objective, verifiable facts. What? In all this time -- nobody in possession of such facts came forward? Nobody? Ever? The addendum on that is that if such evidence ever turns up in future -- I am ready to reconsider. Until then.......... Alright. The Black Swan theory. I'm reasonable. Show me a black swan. If it shows up -- I will reconsider. Until then -- there are no objective, verifiable facts about God. Not one. ========================================================================================================================================= This is strictly a side note -- on the subject of ancient aliens. It is possible that Earth was visited by aliens. We have unsolved mysteries. I only said "possible". Not "probable". On the other hand -- if all the claims were true -- Earth would be getting more traffic than Grand Central Station. I'm not as skeptical as you are in these matters -- but I get your point. The world needs a lot more critical thinking.

It's an amusing question. Usually, we only measure things that exist. When we have no objective, verifiable facts about God -- no facts at all -- what is it that we would measure? Even empty space -- literally nothing -- has greater than zero mass. Aside from theology and philosophy, what do we know about God? Less than nothing.

Your reasoning eludes me. Real scientists want to find black swans. Show a real scientist that his math is wrong -- he'll get excited by the implications for new understanding. Of course, we take a lot on trust. Real science is self correcting. Findings are always tentative. Pending confirmation and further development. I'm not being mean. I'm confused. What is your point?

You reckon wrong. E = MC2 There is a difference between poetry and physics. Even Bible poetry. At most you have a metaphor. This is not proof of anything. Common Atheist fallacy?

I suspect that meredog has impossible standards of intellectual purity. No malice. Just impossible standards. I think when he pushes our buttons -- it's incidental to making a point, instead of being an objective. I know. It's annoying. I don't sense bad intentions.

If we knew nothing at all about the physics of light -- we would still have objective, verifiable evidence that light exists. Unlike God's existence. The rest is detail. Further. If all books about Light and God were destroyed or otherwise lost -- we could rediscover the details about Light. How would we reclaim the information about God? Aside from the output of imagination. People would still claim Revelation. Much like Joseph Smith or Sun Myung Moon -- Or a few would be leaders, who found their way to this board. Further, the existence of light actually matters. It does make a difference whether or not light exists.

Welcome to the group.

I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you suggesting that every measurement in physics, has to be independently confirmed, by everybody? You seem to be pushing for impossible standards. Why?

"My karma ran over my dogma."

We have come full circle in this argument. I think more than once. Since we are back where we started; I will restate the original proposition. There are no objective, verifiable facts about God. None at all. Some people choose to believe in God -- despite the total lack of objective, verifiable facts. I say -- let them. Truly, the beliefs of others are not my concern. Neither do I need to tell anyone else what to believe or disbelieve. It's not my problem If someone chooses to believe in the absence of facts -- it's their issue. Not mine. The question behind this thread was simple -- and directed largely at you. "Why don't you believe?" We can keep the answer simple. "Why would I believe?" Beyond -- "I don't know" -- and -- "I don't believe" -- there is -- "I don't care." It works for me. I'm ready to let it go. If anybody wants to come up with real evidence -- Objective, verifiable, evidence -- we can always revisit. We can also continue to ignore evidence which requires faith. Anything which is "good enough" for those who "believe".

For me, it is enough to take the Bible off the table as evidence. Life is short. I can't be bothered dissecting every minor flaw. Or every major flaw. It doesn't matter. If we start down the path of arguing each detail -- we will be at it forever and the argument will never end. No. It's not my burden and it's also not yours.

I am detecting Hostility. Every group has social norms. Every group. If you wish to engage your fellow ministers in a friendly manner -- it is helpful to know what the norms are. I hope that you will choose to be friendly and fit in. It's your call.

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If you can't stop shouting, the only thing you will spread will be irritation. Please stop.