Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I think that this is a distinction without a difference. It is still personal extinction/oblivion.

Objective, verifiable evidence for the soul is lacking. It could still exist. I know of no good reason to think that this is so. Just like God.

Maybe.

Alright. Speaking from skepticism: Yes. We lack evidence of a deity. If we had evidence for a god -- we still would not have evidence of the Biblical God. In like manner, if we had evidence for post death existence: We would still lack evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell. If we did have evidence of Heaven or Hell -- we still would have no proof that it was the Christian version. The Islamic versions are just as likely -- or unlikely -- as the Christian versions.

We don't know that memory persists. We don't know that personality persists. I'm not being argumentative. We don't know. Does it give comfort to think that our abstract energy -- or life force -- or what ever -- will persist? Maybe it will. I don't know. Unless my individuality persists, I don't think it matters -- to me. In classic Vedic symbolism, the soul is like a drop of water that returns to the ocean. I don't find any comfort in that. For what little it's worth, I have my own approach. When death comes, there are two possibilities. Either nothing happens, or something happens. If it's nothing, we won't even find out. If it's something, there are two possibilities. Either it's unconscious or it's conscious. If it's unconscious, we won't even find out about it. If it's conscious, it will be interesting. This is when the Christian Fundamentalist says, by that time it's too late. The Fundamentalist is working on a binary. Either Heaven or Hell. Of course, this is based on an assertion that has nothing to back it up. Before we jump into -- Suppose you're wrong? (Pascal's Wager) -- I remind you that Islam also has Perdition for non-believers. I am not motivated to hedge my bets, by guessing which Hell to be afraid of. None of them know anything and it's all crap. Life is short and the end is certain. Until then, let us live.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Atheism is only a conclusion about God. Atheism does not have anything to do with post death existence. It does not promise oblivion or anything else. Beyond that, we have no objective, verifiable information about post death existence. Not Heaven, Hell, reincarnation, anything else -- or oblivion. The point remains. Wanting post death existence -- or oblivion -- does not make it so. What is -- is. We will find out when the time comes. Or not. I do agree with you on life. Until we die, it is best to live.

Hell Fire is the terrorist threat, intended to frighten potential converts into submission -- and maintain their grip on the faithful. This is not a relic of the dead past. I still encounter street preachers who use the threat. Obviously, it fails with me. Still, it continues to annoy and irritate me.

A contemplation on "Faith".

This is good.

Of course. An unconstitutional display of government religious favoritism.

When the belief is all or nothing -- all in or all out -- how do they not spin? If they yield on any point -- any point at all -- they are all out. Isn't that why they have so many schisms? Imagine the terror of having to agree with everything -- or lose salvation. Pity them.

Evangelical Political Fervor

The Evangelical Vote

Do Christians want Tolerance or Dominance?

Dan, you are consistent.

The Christian Terrorist Threat of Eternal Hell Fire and Suffering. It's real. Franklin Graham says so. https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/10/17/franklin-graham-atheist-ron-reagan-better-be-afraid-of-burning-in-hell/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Imagine+No+Religion&utm_content=44

That was a nice try. A really nice try. Alas, you have missed the cultural context that Dan is working under. Christian literalists tend to work with the calculations of Bishop Usher. Creation happened in the year 4004 B.C. Jewish fundamentalists do something similar. The Jewish calendar dates back to Creation. This is the year 5780. I don't want to quibble about the details. For Dan, Creation only happened about 6,000 years ago. The Fall took place after the seventh day. Death is an even more recent development. Dan has already explained to us, that he lives in a spiritual reality -- that is different from our reality. I have come to accept this as self evident. He is divorced from our reality. It follows that an argument based on science, facts, logic -- or even external reality -- will fail. Your argument was excellent. Your reasoning was solid. It will fail. Really. It was a nice try. It's Dan. Even pointing out that insect life -- even in Genesis -- was around before the Fall -- won't help. It's Dan.

You can. You are not trapped in Dan's binary. In that separate reality, there is only one true religion -- which is his -- Which must be loved -- In which we must believe and have faith. All the others are false. It follows that all the followers of these false paths, need correction and instruction in the true path. Because -- God.

There are two separate, distinct issues here. 1. Does God exist? God could exist. There is no good reason to think so -- but God could exist. 2. Is God -- as portrayed in the Bible -- evil? Of course he is. I read the Book. I could say the same thing about other fictional characters. Is Dracula evil? Of course he is. I read the book. These are separate, distinct issues. Since you don't make distinctions, of course, you are confused. Yes. I know. All in or all out. All black or all white. All cold or all hot. The world is not a binary. Some of us do shades of grey. In fact -- a whole rainbow of colors.

It is beyond depravity. True evil. Remember, the designer would know, in perfect detail, about the resulting suffering. All of it.

How to convert an Atheist. Since this thread is about proving the truth of Christianity -- What would it take?

You have already explained this. A separate spiritual reality. Alright.

Disproving God.

This is the structure of Christian theology. Giving our sins to Christ, means no personal responsibility. It's strange. The same Christians, are the people talking about objective morality. What do they care about? We must be willing to believe, without evidence. We must be willing to ignore evidence, that suggests we are mistaken. The frame of mind that every con artist exploits. It's Dan.

Just so.