Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I followed your link. "Idolatry was rampant in Israel during the days of the prophet Elisha, and paganism influenced young and old alike." You have forgotten that this is an Interfaith board, with a Pagan membership.

You are making this very easy for me. When the existence of a god -- or God -- is not detectable -- then it makes no difference at all. When a god seems to not exist -- whether it exists or not -- it changes nothing. There is no practical difference between a god -- which has no existence -- and a god that conceals it's existence. On a side note -- Christians claim that their God wants a personal relationship with us. To then suggest that this God is hiding from us -- Well. This is a disturbed God with issues. Here is a thought experiment for you: Pretend that God exists. What changes? Nothing. Pretend that God does not exist. What changes? Nothing. When nothing changes either way -- So what? A brief rundown on how this fits the basic labels: The Atheist does not believe -- because there is no reason to believe. At least, no good reason. The Agnostic does not know if a certain god exists. Or wee folk. Or fairies. Or brownies. Or elves....... The Apatheist does not care because -- so what? Try not to let other people make you crazy. Life is too short to take on their crap.

When a mind is enslaved by faith -- and bound by the chains of belief -- It is silly to expect reason. You are asking more than Dan can do. It won't happen. Neither facts, nor reason, nor reality will penetrate. I understand your frustration. You think that if you're patient -- if you present the right combination of facts and reason, that reality will win out. No. It won't. Dan cares about faith and belief. Facts and reality bounce off him without effect. Your logic will fail to penetrate. Let it go. There is nothing to gain. It's Dan. It doesn't matter. It's Dan.

A stiff mind, produced by a stiff culture. It's no use demanding mental dexterity. It's beyond him.

You have come upon a great truth. Monotheists get all hot and bothered, by the suggestion that their God might not exist. They can't define their God -- but of course -- their God exists. When they argue with Atheists, they can't even say which God they are arguing over. The exception is when they stipulate the God of the Bible. Then it's -- that God. I have not had this discussion with Pagans.

I think it's obvious, that the people who wrote the books of the Bible, projected their own minds onto God. A brutal and unjust culture will give rise to a brutal and unjust God. For the rest -- calm yourself. It's Dan. He has limits. Think of it as a form of hysterical blindness. He can not see anything that goes against his belief in God or Scripture. This is what happens when faith is elevated above all else. He's not being stupid. He's not being crazy. He's blind. We have to make allowances. Reason will not prevail.

Do your ears hear what your mouth is saying?

Years ago, I attended a lecture on Medicine Buddha. The monk -- Kedem Morton -- said -- "The gods are illusory. But if we call upon them for assistance, they will help us anyway."

Yes. Of course you do.

Flat out of luck? Like the rest of us? What an odd thing to say. This is what comes from putting everything on faith and belief. Believing is not knowing. That is why it's called belief.

Strictly my own opinion: Are we talking about a personification? Now, we are dealing with culture. Culture matters. How much it matters, depends on the details. Jack Frost is a personification. So is Santa. Santa has a larger cultural impact. So does the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Lady Luck is a personification. Does she matter? Ask a gambler. Death rides a pale horse. We all know what he looks like. We know what instrument he carries. It's part of Western culture. At New Year's Eve parties, the Old Year and Baby New Year are liable to show up. Does it matter? It's culture. Old Man Winter? Father Time? All culture. Sometimes, the personification is a deep expression of culture. Consider Thor. He is a storm god. He personifies the chaos of the storm. He is also a battle god. He personifies the chaos of battle. Loki is also a personification of chaos -- of a different kind. Loki personifies strife and conflict and mischief. Sometimes, Thor and Loki go adventuring together. The two types of chaos are compatible. Sometimes, Thor and Loki are at each other's throats. Sometimes, the different kinds of chaos are not compatible. Besides which, they are great stories to tell around a camp fire. Entertainment combined with philosophy. All an expression of culture. Are the gods literal, with actual existence? We are no longer talking about culture. At least, not in the same way. That takes us into metaphysics. This is a separate conversation. I think we need to take that one in small bites.

Yes. It would. For years on this board, I have been trying to get even a working definition of God. The word has become empty of meaning. God is Love. God is the ultimate mystery. God as metaphor. Etc. Of course, there are the basic divisions. There is the Christian Trinity. The strict Monotheism of Judaism and Islam. The God of Hinduism -- rather complicated. The modern abstractions of Deism and Pantheism. The deeper abstraction of Taoism. It's modern spin off -- The Force You want to define a god -- small g. There are different ways to go. Literal gods that have actual, independent existence. That includes hybrids, like Hercules. personifications of the forces that they represent. Thought Forms. They began as ideas. Now, they exist. The various entities from the various mythologies. Egyptian, Greek, Norse, Hindu, Buddhist, Bible, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, etc. etc. etc. Other categories -- off the top of my head. elementals, jin, etc. wee folk brownies, fairies, pixies, elves, leprecauns, etc. Bodhi Satfas -- Not quite gods -- not quite Buddhas thought forms angels, demons, devils, saints, etc. dragons, unicorns, other creatures, etc. No doubt, I have over looked plenty. What kind of god did you want to define?

Since I was slow -- an addendum: Just in case, I started a new thread in this section. If the gods were proven to be true. I do try to be reasonable.

This might not be the best place for this thread. We started with a thread -- If Christianity were proven to be true. That gave birth to a spin off. If God were proven to exist. Placing a thread about the gods in this section, instead of the Pagan area, doesn't seem right. Still, it is a spin off from -- If God were proven to exist. I thought we should keep the spin offs together. Besides. The followers of Monotheism like to pretend that the old gods have died. Or gone away. No. They are with us yet. Perhaps the old gods deserve a section within Monotheism. Through it all -- they persist and refuse to go away -- or make room.

Your comment brings us to a discussion of the gods -- small g -- instead of God with the big G. Is that what you intended? I don't mind. The gods are interesting. I need to be clear. Is that what you intended?

Be careful. Once we start down the path of reason, there is no turning back. Consider Noah's Flood. Humanity had become evil and had to be destroyed. What does God do? Do all the evil people simply fall down dead? Do their dead bodies vanish, so that the world is spared dealing with all that rot and decay? No. Of course not. God drowns the whole world. This is not a God that sweats the small stuff.

We did. That was a long time ago. As I remember, we also had a member, who said he was a real world Sith. Not at the same time.

It isn't only terrorists. Modern Islamic nations, under Sharia Law, punish blasphemy harshly.

I suppose that makes as much sense as anything else. Since that particular religion, involves a war between the forces of Good and Evil, I'm not sure it's Monotheistic. Still, why not? Jediism is a modern version of that conflict. Yes. It exists as a real world religion -- now. Look up The Temple of the Jedi Order. It has members.

The topics are similar. I wanted to make it less sectarian. Proving God's existence, with objective, verifiable, evidence -- would be a good foundation move. It would remain to be proven that it was your God. Distinct from the Gods of Hinduism, Deism, Pantheism, etc. An unproven assertion. If the God proven to exist, turns out to be the God of Deism -- then no. It would not. Since you are limited to your own perspective -- dictated by your faith -- this conversation will be difficult for you.

Yes. I do agree. You have made your point.

An addendum: The One God of Monotheism. In Monotheism, by definition, there can be only One. Please -- feel free to distinguish between Monotheism, Deism and Pantheism -- or other version of One God. Polytheism is a different thread. No slight intended. There is a distinction to be made, and I don't want to generate more confusion.

That seems on odd supposition.