Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I think you misunderstand the emotional dynamic here. It is not love of an immoral God. What it is is terror. Suppose you fully believe in this monstrous God. An all powerful, all knowing monster, who knows your every thought before you do. A jealous monster who demands constant love, adoration and worship. Damn right. You had better love Him and forgive Him -- or else. Think of Stockholm syndrome, but much worse. Then pity the poor craven Christians who truly believe. In their place, what would you do? Remember. Perdition awaits all who don't know the right answer.

You are suggesting that God deserves Hell. A crime of omission is still a crime. In American law, it comes under the heading of "depraved indifference".

Just so. We must have faith, because without faith, we are faithless, and only a person of faith can have faith. Round and round and round. I sigh a lot on this board.

Only to a point. No matter how much of an idiot I think someone is -- it is seldom productive to call them stupid. Civility remains useful, if not virtuous.

Wow. Another quote from Scripture. That we must have faith. Because it says so in Scripture.

That is an odd assertion. Do you know what pleases God? It is a monstrous parent that does not care when his children do good things -- for any reason.

I can't think of anything. On the other side of the ledger, consider all the Holy War and persecution that the world might have been spared.

Some parts are less plausible than others.

Yes. A parable, told by a fictitious teacher, to a fictitious following. A story within a story. As proof, it is sorely lacking.

You seem to be conflating religion with spirituality. Well, what do we mean by spirituality? There is that sense of awe and wonder. The kind of experience we get by looking at a star filled sky. Or a really great thunder and lightning storm. Or a flower. Or kittens playing. Or a Sunset. Etc. etc. There are the various virtues. Patience, kindness, selfless love, charity, etc. There are the encounters with the healing energies of Reiki, Qi Gong and others. The experiences with meditation. These things and many others can come wrapped up in a religious package with a spiritual bow. They can also be non-religious and secular. We find what we seek. We see what we believe. Largely, it is the cultural context that we place our values into. IMO

That sounds a lot like the foundation for a death cult. Oh, wait. We already have one. It involves the death of God on a cross.

The ULC does welcome everybody; no questions asked. That does not make it a gay church. For that matter, also not an Atheist church. True universality with full equality seems to confuse people.

My studies in Reiki ,Qi Gong, meditation, etc. have made an impression on me. I am not a materialist. The God vocabulary and symbolism don't work for me. Not even Pantheism, which feels dishonest. For this reason, I call myself an Atheist. I generally call myself an Agnostic. There is much that I don't know and probably won't find out. That is alright. I know that I don't know. Its a start. I don't need all the answers. This is good, because I don't have them. Well, to each their own.

It sounds like you have found your path. It is good to have friends on the path. Even when its not the same path.

If I understand your intent, you are taking the wolf as a role model. A person could do worse. The wolf is a profoundly loyal creature, faithful to mates, friends and family. Wolves are known for hunting for their elders and the sick of the clan. Did I miss anything?

It is interesting, how the different religions say similar things. Christians don't have religion. They have Jesus. Jews don't have religion. They have Torah. Muslims don't have religion. They submit to God's will. Nobody has religion, yet the world drowns in it.

Just to be clear -- You have God. The rest of the world has religion?

This is not clear to me. Their stories are in different books. Other than that, how are they different?

Now, religion is about piety. To my understanding, religion has its origins in making magic. What are the gods but personifications? When an aspect of nature, like chaos, is personified -- the priesthood then has a means of speaking to chaos. Possibly bribing chaos or forcing it to obey our will. To day, we call it prayer. I didn't say that the magic would actually work. Just my thoughts on where magic and religion have common roots. Yes, I do regard prayer as a form of magic, even now. Of course, in today's modern world, we are above such things. Then again, look at the Statue of Liberty. We need only install a priesthood and an altar -- and we can literally worship at Liberty's feet. It is still popular to talk about the "blessings of Liberty." How is that for the personification of an abstraction? Magic and devotion combined. And we thought that Monotheism had won out. No. The old gods are with us still. Their forms change and their names change, but they never quite leave.

An additional thought. After technology, adjust thermostat, open tap, call plumber.

Not really. For all the contradictions, it has a very human face. My favorite zen quote is from a monk. "I know that I'm already an enlightened master. Why am I still miserable?" That speaks to me.

Yes. It is. Zen people thrive on contradiction. As in the sound of one hand clapping. Zen is the path, which is not a path.

Yes. It is. I'm surprised to see you make that statement, considering Christian history all over the world.

I think what this speaks to, is our silly invisible assumptions about enlightenment. We gain enlightenment. Sparkles fall from the sky. The mundane drudgery of daily life dissolves in wonder and joy. No. After enlightenment; do laundry, cook dinner, wash dishes. Life goes on.

Things change. Things don't change. Now that technology is here --Do laundry. Cook dinner.