Jonathan H. B. Lobl

This is what comes of being regular in your practice. Good going and congratulations.

Have you ever looked into the Transcendental Meditation of Mahrishi Mahesh Yogi? Sometimes, a simple practice is so much more in disguise.

It had nothing to do with my High School. I mention this only to place the incident in time. They had street corner people handing out "invitations" to an auditing. I accepted to see what they were about. I came, I saw, I walked out shaking. No involvement. In my misbegotten youth, I also attended the public lectures of the Unification Church. Also not what you would call involvement. I sized them up and decided that they were crazy. I also investigated the Jews for Jesus. There are amazing things in New York City. And the Process Church of the Final Judgement. And the Hare Krishna people - ISCKCON - International Society for Krishna Consciousness. I came by my Atheism honestly. Yes. I know. Not the point.

Not disdain. At least, not my disdain. My fear. They discomfort me as few things have. The first time I encountered them, I was in High School. They suggested I take an introductory class. I declined. I was sent to a supervisor for persuading. Then on to his supervisor. And on for a few more layers. There was something wrong with their eyes. Something behind their eyes. Every step up the ladder, that something wrong with their eyes was worse. It was very creepy. I have not been back. All those years, the memory lingers. We speak lightly about eyes being the windows of the soul. When I encounter true madness, it's not funny. Just scary.

I don't have much to add of a useful nature. My views are subjective. I don't know how to bring objectivity into it.

Over the years, I have looked briefly into Scientology. I mean briefly. They have always creeped me out. I have always wanted to go home and take a shower.

I'm trying to make a few cultural distinctions that get lost in the shuffle. There is a tendency in the Monotheistic world, to have a spectrum line of belief through disbelief. Atheists seem as prone to this world view as Christians. I have grown cautious. I'm carefully not placing Polytheism on that spectrum. I know that there are Polytheists on this board. Largely silent, because they see no way to voice their perspective. I'm trying to make a space for them. Thank you for joining in.

Considering the topics already covered by this board, lets go for an obvious. The standard for proof that God exists. The god of Pantheism: Not that big a deal. A simple demonstration that natural forces are in dynamic balance. That is, if we are conflating God with Nature. I'm fairly certain that Nature exists. The god of Deism: For those who insist on a First Cause. The God of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. Something with Intelligence that set everything into motion. Well, maybe. It needs a higher level of proof than simple Pantheism. There are no claims of a personal relationship. No claims of revealed Scripture. No claims of eternal damnation for non-believers. No claims of Devin Law. etc. This is the sort of God that Einstein was involved with when he said that he was investigating "the mind of God." Proofs - I use the term with caution -- tend to focus on things like the Cosmological Constants and the Laws of Physics. The god of Monotheism: An outlandish set of assertions. This requires some serious backing up. Nothing so far that meets my standards. The gods: I have no idea what to make of the different Polytheisms. Pagans, Neo-Pagans, Heathens, Classicalists, etc. Anything I say will be simplistic. Not that the Polytheists make big claims. I prefer that they speak for themselves. In general, small claims require small proofs. Big claims require big proofs. Huge claims require huge proofs. Needless to say, truly vast claims tend to get only half vast proofs.

This is news to me. I didn't know that Scientologists did that.

I think this is a simple enough impulse. The followers of each path want to feel Special and Unique and part of the Elite. Just like everybody else. If the others are calling their path religion -- the special path needs to be understood differently. As in, the chosen. Of course, they choose themselves.

I am not neutral in these matters, so I will declare my bias up front. I am an ordained minister of the Apathetic Agnostic Church. The church motto is -- "We don't know and we don't care.". Obviously, I don't think a religion needs God. In this case, a religious philosophy, as expressed in the motto. Now that that's out of the way: Thanks to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, No American judge is allowed to declare a church legal or illegal. What they can do is prohibit or restrict a specific practice; as being against the public welfare. For instance, only one Native American church is allowed the sacrament of Peyote. Old Kirby Hensley put a lot of effort into keeping government out of our churches. We should remember him fondly. When a government judge has the authority to decide what religions are lawful or unlawful -- or what churches -- we open the door to religious persecution. This is one door that I want to see closed and sealed for all time.

Over the years, I keep blundering across religious people, who insist that they do not have religion. Christians are not religious. They have a special relationship with God. Everybody else just has religion. And they are going to Hell. Muslims are not religious. They submit to the will of Allah. Of course, if you are in an Islam dominated country, It is best not to insult religion. Or the Prophet. Or the Koran. Non-Muslims are going to Hell. Strangely, Muslims have the only true religion, depending on who is doing the preaching. Orthodox Jews are not religious. They only follow God's Law. Buddhists are not religious. They only have a practice, which can help people of all religions. Or a philosophy, which can help people of all religions. I find myself wondering. What is it about religion that even the religious flee from the word? Of course, the Monotheists who are not religious, are certain that they have the right god. All the others are false.

Continuing from another thread (No Religion): What is the difference between a religion, a philosophy, a practice and a church. I think this could be an interesting conversation.

You have gone silent. Are you still here?

Monkeys that drink antifreeze get no mileage at all.

That was actually my point. We have Jews and Christians and Muslims who are obviously practicing religion. People who will look you right in the eye -- and explain that everybody else has religion. They have a special relationship to God that is not religion. Buddhists play a similar game. They don't have a religion. They have a practice. A practice suitable for members of all religions. For the rest, if you care to thrash out the distinctions between a religion, a church, a philosophy and a practice -- that could be interesting. This thread is not the place for it.

No. Not ALL the evidence. I am limited to the English translations.

Your sequence is off. I examined the evidence -- which is the Bible -- and lost respect in the process. I will rephrase. The Bible destroyed my faith in the Biblical God. To be clear, there is good stuff in the Bible. Finding it requires careful cherry picking. Regarding the God of Pantheism: Maybe. I'm not sure the God language serves a purpose, but maybe. Regarding the God of Deism: Maybe. The evidence is weak. But maybe.

I feel like I'm missing something here. God's possible existence is not relevant to my own existence. Neither is God's probable non-existence. That is -- using the Biblical God as the default definition. I find the idea so silly, that I don't give much weight to it. If we are talking about the God of Deism or Pantheism -- well, maybe -- and so what? I'm still not clear on what you are looking for. In my daily life, do I need to be correct on my metaphysics?

I understand. There are times when reality bites.

I'm partly following you. Yes. I have invisible assumptions. Yes. I have biases. Yes. I'm vulnerable to confirmation bias. I think that's what you said. Alright, where are we going with this? I want to make sure that I'm responding to your question. I'm not clear on what you are asking. I actually chose The Flying Spaghetti Monster as my example. I thought it would be less inflammatory to express disbelief in The Flying Spaghetti Monster than God. I thought it would ruffle fewer feathers. Was I mistaken?

I think this is a distinction without a difference. I don't know that The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. I do disdain the probability of it's existence.

There are other tools which I have opted not to use. In particular L.S.D. As in Legalize Spiritual Discovery. As Dr. Timothy Leary has stated; "If you can remember the sixties, you weren't part of them." One of my favorite sayings is -- "Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself." In a similar vein -- "Some men learn by observing. Some men learn by reading. Some men have to pee on the third rail."

No. I have not explored ALL illusion. I did get heavily into my Reiki studies. It persuaded me that while Space and Time were real enough -- at the same time, Space/Time was illusory. Some of the people on this board will remember when I was advocating for Pantheism. That's why. I have also been seriously involved with meditation. It has taught me a great deal about tricks of the mind. "The gods are illusory, but if we call upon them for assistance, they will help us anyway." Kadem Morton, a Buddhist monk. I also have a certain appreciation for Jewish Atheism. "There is no God and we are his people." I also have my perspective on Polytheism. I have been initiated to Medicine Buddha, White Tara, Quan Yin and Sekhmet.

In the follies of my youth, I decided to explore my family religion, which was Judaism. My closest friends were Hassidic Jews. I prayed. I studied. I believed. I wound up taking a B.A. in Jewish Studies. I spent a summer vacation in a Hassidic yeshiva. Then I came to my senses and woke up. To be clear, I did not "lose" my faith. I grew out of it. I know about faith, from the inside. I know about prayer. From the inside. I look back on this part of my life as youthful stupidity. It is an understatement to say that I find the memories intensely embarrassing. I do not need to engage in prayer, to find out. Been there. Done that. Not gonna do it again. I have plunged into illusion and emerged out the other side. Any questions?