Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Hardly a professional. Nobody's paying me.

Just so.

Zen is interesting. The path which is not a path. I'm not sure I really get it. I'm also not sure there is anything to get. I have become fond of the Agnostic label. All labels distort. Still, I know that I don't know. I don't trust anybody, who is sure that he does know. When I was young, I knew it all. Now, not so much.

Yes on everything.

The earliest science fiction transporter accident that I know of -- was "The Fly." Think of the great mass of good bacteria, lining our intestines. They would have to be teleported with us. Think of everything that lives in our skin. It's an accident begging to happen. If the soul does exist -- could a teleporter send it? If there's no soul, what is it that emerges?

Or the salted peanuts.

I'm only getting started. Who do you suppose got to host the bacteria responsible for dysentery? Who had to host the worms/flukes that invade the intestines? They had to save ALL the animals. Imagine being host to the last pair of fleas. What fun. Head lice had to be accommodated. So did crotch lice. Somebody had to feed the bedbugs. ALL THE ANIMALS. ALL MEANS ALL. Do you know how much poop one elephant produces in a day? Man the shovels. Think of ALL the animals pooping and peeing. What an output. What were they all eating? Do you know how much meat one lion needs? Do you know how much fresh water a horse needs?

It is so much worse than that. Pretend for a moment that all of these events actually happened. It rained and rained until the oceans of the world covered the entire planet. The entire planet was soaked in salt water. You know what happens when land is covered in salt water? Nothing grows there. All plant life, everywhere, is gone. Good by photosynthesis. Good by oxygen/carbon cycle. The planet's biosphere is dead. So, the Ark finally lands, in the center of the ultimate bog. Imagine the stench from dead bloated animals and rotten vegetation. No food anywhere. What does Noah do? An animal sacrifice. What are the carnivores going to eat? What are the herbivores going to eat? How are the penguins going to get to the south pole? How are the Kangaroos going to get back to Australia? How are the Lions going to get to Arica? How are any of them going to breath? Oh, yes. Bio diversity. Who are Noah's children going to mate with? There is no one else. That leaves incest.

I don't know if it's true. I read about one of the victims of 9/11. One of the people whose remains were never recovered. His grieving family wanted something for the coffin, so they tracked down his blood donation -- and buried that.

Yes, but there's continuity. The cells are replaced slowly. If you want angst, consider the case of someone who is teleported. Is it the same person? Or a duplicate?

It will work out -- as long as you ask the right questions. Like -- "What's 8 x 6 ?"

If true, a lack of genetic diversity and disastrous inbreeding.

I'm happy to see you here. I think your addition will help the quality of conversation.

Maybe. When I'm cooking and I need an onion -- I don't trouble myself about the essences of onion. I cut it up and throw it into the pot.

The process of evolution -- of change -- never stopped. It continues. They are all intermediate stages.

There are large gaps in my science education. More precisely, these matters are not known to me. That does not mean that they are not known.

For anyone who cares, I would like to expand briefly, on my world view. For the sake of argument, let us suppose that all God belief were to vanish from the world. Now what? Have all the problems of the world vanished with religion? Have peace and joy come to Humanity? Is the world now experiencing paradise? No. Of course not. The world would still be a mess. Maybe a different mess -- but still a mess. Because Humanity would still be a mess. Because critical thinking would still be in short supply. Because people wouldn't be changed at all, by the lack of religion. Because sloppy, irrational thinking would still dominate. Because people would still be stupid and crazy and irrational and greedy and self aggrandizing and petty and mean spirited and destructive and all the rest of it. I had to say it. No. My world outlook would not bring panacea. One thing would change. Humanity would know that we have to fix things -- because Sky Daddy won't. I'm climbing down from my soap box now. As you were.

Consider a species of lizard. The members of this species are searching for food. Some of them will end up in a muddy swamp. Some of them will end up in a hot, dry dessert. In each group, some individuals will thrive. They will reproduce and pass on their genes. Others in that group will perish. They will not pass on their genes. Over many generations -- a process too slow to be observed -- far longer than an individual life span -- changes will show up and accumulate. In time -- a long time -- the two groups will not be able to mate with each other. That is evolution theory. At least, as I understand it. There is a major false idea that gums up understanding. This is not about species advancement. This is about species change. Sharks are very old. Much older than fish. They don't have bone. They didn't have to change into fish. They were so successful that they stayed as they were. Consider the old joke. "Which came first. The chicken or the egg?" If the line is traced back far enough -- over many generations -- over many accumulated changes -- we find a reptile. There was never a point that a lizard gave birth to a chicken. That is not how it works.

You forget the obvious. Sometimes a belief is rejected out of honesty. The person of integrity asks basic questions. Do I believe this? Do I really believe this? Why do I believe this? When the answer is a solid -- "No" -- the person of integrity has to face facts. The more so when that belief is based on none. The question boils down to honesty and integrity. It is -- "What do I believe?" The question is not -- "What should I believe?" or "What do I want to believe? Not even -- "What do I need to say that I believe -- or they won't love me? It is good to be open minded. Not so much that the brain falls out. Not so much that the person of honesty and integrity, must live a lie. Without honesty. Without integrity. Without self respect. Without dignity. Without courage. Just a false front. To get along. To be accepted. To be loved. You know -- just in case.

That is not how evolution theory works.

We need to be saved from a metaphor? Is Hell Fire and Damnation also a metaphor?

Did the planet need a literal first male cat and a literal first female cat -- before the world had kittens? No? That is how we managed without a historic Adam and Eve. Unless you want to say that cats were also a special creation. Maybe you do.

You are coming to the table with certain basic assumptions. First, that it is your faith against non-belief. This is not the case at all. I don't want to speak for anyone else, so I will make this particular. You think it is your faith versus my non-belief. Again, no it's not. It is my non-belief against all belief systems -- aka -- religions. I do not hold your religion in greater disdain than I have for Islam. Or Hinduism. Or any number of other religions. I am Agnostic. I'm looking for objective, verifiable facts. You have shown me none. You are not under any obligation to do so. I truly don't care what you believe. Your faith is not my concern. You are entitled to your beliefs and I have no issue with your beliefs. Unless you want to change me. In that case, you have to give me a reason. Again, you have not done so. Scripture is not a reason. Neither is threats of Damnation. Neither is assertions of truth backed up by nothing. Neither is your call to believe. Again, why should I believe as you do? I have also been preached at by Muslims. Also by Shintoists, Hindus and Buddhists. All of them came at me with the approach that they were right -- and I was wrong. I see no reason to take sides. They are all entitled to believe as they will. If they want to change me, they have to show me something. A final detail, for now. You have challenged me to a variation of Pascal's Wager. Just in case, I should believe in Hell. Just in case. So I don't end up there. What makes you think that I find the Christian Hell more credible -- or alarming, than the Islamic Hell? It would be ironic if you were to end up there. Right next to me. We could both spend eternity together, laughing over that one. Between the customary weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. I digress. What kind of pathetic, craven, coward would I have to be -- to change my whole belief structure -- over threats of Perdition? Before I forget, point number two. Do you think I'm trying to change you? Do you think I'm trying to persecute you? You have claimed it.

1. What is true is true. What is false is false. Wanting counts for nothing. Not wanting counts for nothing. 2. Asserting facts which are not true, counts for nothing. Wishing does not make it so. Insisting, damages your credibility. 3. Your childish insults count for nothing.

"Once upon a time, God created the Heavens and the Earth."