Jonathan H. B. Lobl

This statement is filled with unintended irony. You did not say "God". You said "Supreme Being". Again, we see the invisible assumptions come into play. For you, God conflates with Supreme Being. With so few words, you have said so much about the God that you don't believe in -- and you never noticed. This is the power of letting others choose your vocabulary for you.

Before starting on a journey -- either literal or spiritual -- it is good to ask basic questions. Where am I going? Why am I going? What am I looking for? What do I want to do when I get there? It simplifies things. It is not helpful to look for directions until you know where you want to end up. Of course when you get there, you can look around and decide it's not what you had in mind, and look someplace else. Maybe you are already where you want to be. Maybe there is no place to go, because you're already there.

You are consistent. How very predictable.

We are entering dangerous ground here. My response is going to offend people. That is sad. Still, you did ask and I wish to be honest with my response. No doubt, meredog will wish to call me on how I have responded to Dan, when I reacted badly to his statement on Agnostics. Dan may also wish to respond with similar observations. I expect it. I regard faith as something to be outgrown. Like Santa. Like an invisible friend. When we are young children, it is common to have an invisible friend. In a five year old this is cute. In an adult -- not so much. For an adult, God is that invisible friend. What is even sadder is when that same adult has an invisible enemy. That would be the Devil. Most young children do not ask strangers to talk to their invisible friend -- or fear their invisible enemy. The Evangelicals do. Young children are trained by their parents and by society to believe in Santa. What do we know about Santa? He's an old man with a beard, who flies around the sky, in the company of magic flying creatures. It sounds a lot like God and his angels. What else do we know about Santa? We know by singing his songs as children. "He's making a list -- checking it twice -- he always knows who's naughty or nice ................" "He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows when you've been bad or good............" What does this give us? The old man in the sky is watching everything we do. He knows when we are sleeping and when we are active. He keeps lists of the good and the bad. He rewards the good and punishes the bad. God in miniature. Children outgrow Santa. God lingers on in the adult mind. No. Faith is not a gift. It is a developmental problem. IMO.

I also attend two other senior centers, that are run by Protestant churches -- and another that is run by an Orthodox synagogue. I don't have a problem with religious organizations. Or religious people. When I'm respected, I give respect.

So sad, too bad. Dan must deal with his issues as I must deal with mine. I'm done with taking pious crap off anybody. Even the sincere. The secular have rights. I have rights. You have rights. You want to lose your rights? Let the pious walk all over you -- out of respect for their sincerity.

One more thought. We keep getting told on this board that belief is a choice. No. It's not. I was confronted by a real choice in life. Did I want to live a lie? Did I want to go on pretending to believe in God -- when clearly I did not? Or did I want to live a life of honesty and integrity -- without a false front of pretend belief? I went with integrity. In the process, I lost my Hassidic friends. History repeats. When I couldn't sustain my Buddhist practice -- I lost those friends. It was worth it. I get to be me. My life isn't much, but it's mine. I'm not living a life of pious fraud. That counts for a lot. I think about these things when someone tells me that I should choose to believe. You know. Just in case that they're right. What do I have to lose by believing? I mean, besides my integrity. My self respect. My dignity. My mind........... Of course, when I refuse to be intimidated by threats of Hell fire -- and state why -- I'm accused of persecuting those wonderful people, who only want to save me. What really gets me is when I'm told to pray. Like I never did. Or I'm told to read the Bible. Please. I know more Bible than most Christians.

Membership is free. The programs are free. Lunch is low cost and a bargain. Seniors who can't pay the nominal donation eat free.

My religious development was not linear. There was a lot of back and forth and sideways. My family religion was Reform Jewish. I started there. Went through a period of Atheism. God into Eastern Religion for a while. When that wore off, I explored traditional Judaism. I had a whole circle of Hassidic friends. Overdosed on it. Got serious about Reiki and Meditation which changed my sense of reality. Did some serious Bible study -- did some serious prayer -- all very non-linear.........Was seriously into Pantheism for a while. Some people on this board may remember my Pantheist days. Now, I'm Agnostic. I don't believe. I don't disbelieve. I don't know. The older I get, the less certain I am of what I understand. Of course, when I was young, I knew it all.

My primary senior center is run by Catholic Charities.

I can seriously relate. There were times in my life where I sat myself down and asked myself basic tings. Like what I believed. Not what I was supposed to believe -- but what I really believed. Of course, we came up with different answers. I'm amused. Your journey has a familiar scent to it. I know that scent.

You told me that God spits out Agnostics. Which part of this is not deeply offensive?

An additional thought: When you speak of God doing the choosing; it means you have already accepted the existence of God -- and defined the God that exists at the same time. That is, distinct from the God of Deism or Pantheism -- which does not choose. You are further stating that you do no choose -- God chooses for you -- which is a problem in the context of "free will issues". As I said -- invisible assumptions. They can be a mine field. Once you accept basic premises, it can be hard to argue your way out of them.

1. It is not the Bible verse that I found offensive, but your use of it. It's an amazing skill you have -- to have God make your insults for you. It lets you pretend to be clean. 2. Such pretend innocence. Or maybe you do lack such basic comprehension? 3. My problem is with the smug arrogance of your saying offensive things, then hiding behind Scripture. You're not the source of nastiness. It was God. (Don't twist my words. That was sarcasm. Yes. You are the source.) 4. Are you planning to weaponize all of them?

In my opinion -- "not chosen" is a minefield of invisible assumptions. The presumption is built in, that you want faith. That having faith is a good thing. The classic question, which is put to Agnostics and Atheists, is --- "What would it take for you to believe in God?" The answer, with some variation, is also classic. "I don't know. God would know what it would take to change my mind. So far, it has not happened."

I like to make a distinction between probability and belief. It is highly probable that tomorrow, there will be Sunrise. I expect this to happen. I don't believe it. Of course, if something does happen to the Sun or the Earth; we won't be around to discuss it. "Choosing" to "believe" an unprovable claim is a separate issue. IMO

By accepting information as true, without objective verification. There are some basic questions, that make false information less likely. Is this true? How do I know that it's true? Is it verifiable? Is it falsifiable? Speaking only for myself -- I wish to believe what is true and to not believe what is false. Some beliefs have to be conditional. Even then, I like to go with what seems probable. Of course, some things which seem probable, turn out to be false. When this happens, it is necessary to release the false and move on.

When you quote Scripture to have God spitting out Agnostics -- you are being offensive. More precisely, you are bringing God in, to confirm your offensive "opinion". We have already had this discussion. This is your turn to cite the inerrancy and goodness of Scripture, yet again missing the point. You have insulted me. I have taken offence. Telling me that I should not be offended, because it is only your opinion -- is not constructive.

Thank you for understanding. If I protest, it's twisted to mean that I'm persecuting. Or mean spirited. Or squabbling. At the same time, it's too outlandish and outrageous to ignore. How to respond?

Words fail.

I am astonished. You have actually taken being tolerant and open minded -- and turned it into an insult. So much for mutual respect. So much for dialog.

I said that you had "pushed off" like a boat leaving land. Not that you were "pushed out". How can I miss you if you don't leave? I don't want your cheeks. That's not how I roll.

You were right. He's back. Still combative.

It's amazing, how many people come here -- trolling for followers. Then they leave when nobody follows. One more would be shepherd has pushed off -- and good riddance.

Speaking strictly for myself -- Don't go away mad. Just go away.