Does Hedonism make the world a better place?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I would like to ask you to reconsider; if we take "Vlad the impaler" for "Dracula" then I don't know if your comparison stands... 🙃

 

Anyway; the "pun" was intended but maybe lost in translation. We're drifting off topic anyway. Let's heat back...

 

 

Bram Stoker took literary inspiration from Vlad the Impaler.  Vlad and the Dracula of books and movies, were not the same person.

 

The historic Vlad was about terror.  Supposedly for patriotic reasons.  So the story goes -- invading soldiers would take one look at the field of impaled bodies.  They would be so filled with dread and horror, that they would turn back and flee in terror.

The modern day equivalent would be the monsters in ISIS.  I think that there are some actions, so utterly evil, that nothing can possibly justify them.  That performing said acts, for any reason at all, makes the doer worthy of destruction.

 

 

               

 

 

[RevBogovac]

On 2/5/2021 at 6:25 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Bram Stoker took literary inspiration from Vlad the Impaler.  Vlad and the Dracula of books and movies, were not the same person.

 

The historic Vlad was about terror.  Supposedly for patriotic reasons.  So the story goes -- invading soldiers would take one look at the field of impaled bodies.  They would be so filled with dread and horror, that they would turn back and flee in terror.

The modern day equivalent would be the monsters in ISIS.  I think that there are some actions, so utterly evil, that nothing can possibly justify them.  That performing said acts, for any reason at all, makes the doer worthy of destruction.

 

 

               

 

That was my point, actually... And having been in the Balkan wars in the 90's twice myself ('91 and '94) I have seen my share of terror (spoiler: "they" never turned back nor fled, fortunately I have never seen the impaled babies that have been reported).

 

So to get this back "on topic": wouldn't it be much nicer if we'd all just focus on pursuing pleasure...? 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

36 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

That was my point, actually... And having been in the Balkan wars in the 90's twice myself ('91 and '94) I have seen my share of terror (spoiler: "they" never turned back nor fled, fortunately I have never seen the impaled babies that have been reported).

 

So to get this back "on topic": wouldn't it be much nicer if we'd all just focus on pursuing pleasure...? 

 

 

You are a voice of reason.  I'm not confident that you're right.  You do make good points.                       

 

 

The "good" people who claim to  "serve the Light" -- often do the worst -- the darkest -- deeds of all.                   

 

 

[Dan56]

11 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

So to get this back "on topic": wouldn't it be much nicer if we'd all just focus on pursuing pleasure...? 

 

Sounds like a very self-centered and selfish way to approach life (me, my, mine, myself and I). There's more to life than pleasing yourself, so its a pretty narrow pursuit. I wouldn't find hedonism to be fulfilling.. jmo

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Sounds like a very self-centered and selfish way to approach life (me, my, mine, myself and I). There's more to life than pleasing yourself, so its a pretty narrow pursuit. I wouldn't find hedonism to be fulfilling.. jmo

 

 

Hello, Dan.          

[Key]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Sounds like a very self-centered and selfish way to approach life (me, my, mine, myself and I). There's more to life than pleasing yourself, so its a pretty narrow pursuit. I wouldn't find hedonism to be fulfilling.. jmo

He didn't indicate he meant solely pleasure on the self, I'm sure. Mindful of others pleasures can allow boundaries that present a more cooperative society.  As conflicts of interest may inevitably arise, ability to compromise to a favorable and pleasurable solution is far more desirable ideal than making war.

[RevBogovac]

On 2/8/2021 at 5:53 AM, Dan56 said:

 

Sounds like a very self-centered and selfish way to approach life (me, my, mine, myself and I). There's more to life than pleasing yourself, so its a pretty narrow pursuit. I wouldn't find hedonism to be fulfilling.. jmo

 

Thank you for joining, Dan. There is definitely more to life than pleasing oneself. But that's the beauty of it too; a lot of people find pleasure in pleasing others... it's actually how a lot of us (and other social animals too) are "wired". There is a certain amount of reciprocity to be found in there...

 

On 2/8/2021 at 1:05 PM, Key said:

He didn't indicate he meant solely pleasure on the self, I'm sure. Mindful of others pleasures can allow boundaries that present a more cooperative society.  As conflicts of interest may inevitably arise, ability to compromise to a favorable and pleasurable solution is far more desirable ideal than making war.

 

Exactly Key, it has passed this discussion several times too but I certainly appreciate your addition towards a cooperative society...

 

I would almost conclude: it is OK to pursue your own pleasure, by all means please do. But there are always consequences to your choices and actins. So please consider these too... and maybe, just maybe that would give us all a more pleasurable world to live in...

Edited February 9, 2021 by RevBogovac

[Pete]

 A certain amount of pleasing yourself is necessary for health. I have met carers who feel guilty in enjoying life whilst those they care for cannot. However, it is important.  If you do not look after your own needs then your ability to care will break down. It is about looking after ones own needs so they can continue to care. It is important. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

 A certain amount of pleasing yourself is necessary for health. I have met carers who feel guilty in enjoying life whilst those they care for cannot. However, it is important.  If you do not look after your own needs then your ability to care will break down. It is about looking after ones own needs so they can continue to care. It is important. 

 

 

Yes.  Of course.  In the Gospels, Jesus commands his followers to "love your neighbour as yourself".  That doesn't count for much unless we have self love.       

 

Mark 12:30-31

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Mark 12:30-31

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Hey!

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

27 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Hey!

 

 

 

Hello Dan.  You have never understood me.  You still don't.           

 

 

[Dan56]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

Hello Dan.  You have never understood me.  You still don't.           

 

 

 

Just a little sarcasm to brighten your day ... Its the respond I would have gotten If I had posted a verse from that ancient old bronze age book written by a bunch of uneducated sheepherders.

 

'In the Bible hedone, hedonism, is always descriptive of selfishness, the kind of selfish pursuit of pleasure that leads to the desire for more pleasure, which leads to lust, which leads to temptation, which leads to sin. In every passage where it is found, hedone (the pursuit of pleasure) is called sinful.'

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Just a little sarcasm to brighten your day ... Its the respond I would have gotten If I had posted a verse from that ancient old bronze age book written by a bunch of uneducated sheepherders.

 

'In the Bible hedone, hedonism, is always descriptive of selfishness, the kind of selfish pursuit of pleasure that leads to the desire for more pleasure, which leads to lust, which leads to temptation, which leads to sin. In every passage where it is found, hedone (the pursuit of pleasure) is called sinful.'

 

 

That is the difference.  In your hands, Scripture is weaponized.

 

[RevBogovac]

On 2/10/2021 at 6:52 AM, Dan56 said:

[...] 'In the Bible hedone, hedonism, is always descriptive of selfishness, the kind of selfish pursuit of pleasure that leads to the desire for more pleasure, which leads to lust, which leads to temptation, which leads to sin. In every passage where it is found, hedone (the pursuit of pleasure) is called sinful.'

Yes, and exactly as Jonathan has also noticed; the bible uses its religion as a weapon against its "enemies". The strange part here being that it commands obedience from it's followers not to pursue their own nature but to go against it and only acknowledge the authority of the bible (and - obviously - its representatives. (How funny it is to perceive the second commandment in that light.)

 

I - personally - am however more inclined to see it the way Pete sees it too; if you do not take care of yourself first, how are you going to be able to take care of others?

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

Yes, and exactly as Jonathan has also noticed; the bible uses its religion as a weapon against its "enemies". The strange part here being that it commands obedience from it's followers not to pursue their own nature but to go against it and only acknowledge the authority of the bible (and - obviously - its representatives. (How funny it is to perceive the second commandment in that light.)

 

I - personally - am however more inclined to see it the way Pete sees it too; if you do not take care of yourself first, how are you going to be able to take care of others?

 

 

 

The Bible has two primary functions.

 

Function number 1.  Support and Sustain Bible Based authority.

1. Isaiah 45:23
   I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
2. Romans 14:11
   For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

King James Version (KJV)

 

Function number 2.  Oppose and Silence all opposition.

 

 

1. Psalm 14:1
   The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translation

    
2. Psalm 53:1
   The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

   Exodus 22:18

   Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

   What do I care that theses Scriptures condemn Hedone?  These scriptures are not about making people happy.  They are not about improving the quality of life.  They are about destroying the opposition. 

    

   It's all so political.  How little things change.

    

             

    

    

[RevBogovac]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:17 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

The Bible has two primary functions.

 

Function number 1.  Support and Sustain Bible Based authority.

1. Isaiah 45:23
   I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
2. Romans 14:11
   For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

King James Version (KJV)

 

Function number 2.  Oppose and Silence all opposition.

 

 

1. Psalm 14:1
   The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translation

    
2. Psalm 53:1
   The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

   Exodus 22:18

   Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

   What do I care that theses Scriptures condemn Hedone?  These scriptures are not about making people happy.  They are not about improving the quality of life.  They are about destroying the opposition. 

    

   It's all so political.  How little things change.

    

             

    

    

 

 

It would be fair however to say in that light that if Hedonism does make this world a better place, than anything going against it actually makes this world a worse place..?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

It would be fair however to say in that light that if Hedonism does make this world a better place, than anything going against it actually makes this world a worse place..?

 

 

I think that this is a self evident truth.  When individuals are happy, then the people are happy.  When individuals are miserable, then the people are miserable.

 

     

[Pete]

I mention as a matter of human self care and not about promoting some aged scripture or religion.  We are human and we have needs. If we do not look after our personal needs then we will fail at the emotionally hard things in life such as caring for others. I speak as someone who was a nurse for 46 years.  Those who don't look after their needs do not last long in the job. They burnout quickly. There has to be something for the carer as there is need of the cared for. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

I mention as a matter of human self care and not about promoting some aged scripture or religion.  We are human and we have needs. If we do not look after our personal needs then we will fail at the emotionally hard things in life such as caring for others. I speak as someone who was a nurse for 46 years.  Those who don't look after their needs do not last long in the job. They burnout quickly. There has to be something for the carer as there is need of the cared for. 

 

 

 

I was a Home Health Aide for three years.  Enough to know what you're talking about.  It can be rough.

 

[Pete]

It can be painful caring for people who are suff or struggling. When we emphasise we take on some of that hurt. We therefore need to look after ourselves.