Agnostic Theist

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

For many it is philosophical rather than a belief in everything as is written. It is only the fundamentalists who insist all that is written is true. I know Jews who also relate to it being a way of life rather than an assertion all is true. 

I remember as a child attending church 4 times on a sunday and bible study during the week. I then trusted that ministers knew more than me and had all the answers. Today, I certainly do not. 

I had a strict religious up bringing. I learned that church goers were the good people and the rest as rebellious against god. Now I see that is not true and most just do not understand this god belief or see any point to it.

 

 

A lot of Jews are Atheists.  They understand their Jewishness as an ethnicity or culture.  

 

It makes for some good humor.

• There is no God and we are his people.
• There is only one God, and we don't believe in him.

Jews who understand full well that the Exodus never happened, still participate in Passover Seders.

 

There are plenty of Jewish Atheists who fast on Yom Kippur.  

 

It's a cultural thing.  You understand.  There are plenty of people who have no use for Christianity.  But they get all sentimental and misty eyed at Christmas and Easter.

 

[Pete]

True.I think mainly because it takes them to childhood memories. I can still remember believing in Father Christmas and even convinced my self as a four year old I saw his sledge in the shy. Belief is a powerful thing.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

True.I think mainly because it takes them to childhood memories. I can still remember believing in Father Christmas and even convinced my self as a four year old I saw his sledge in the shy. Belief is a powerful thing.

 

 

 

There is a lot more to Christmas than theology.  More in fact than Christmas.  It goes back to the Winter Solstice.

 

It's cold and dark and depressing.  So what do people do?  What they have always done at Solstice.  They party.  They light the fires, sing the songs, eat the food and drink.  There are cultural over lays.  A time to celebrate children.

 

Think about.  While modern Christians are doing their thing, around evergreen trees and yule logs (all Pagan) -- Jews are lighting the candles and singing.

 

Easter goes way back.  It's a celebration of Spring, new life and renewal.  It's a lot older than Christianity.  Eggs have always represented new life.  Long before they were Easter Eggs.  Rabbits have been a fertility symbol for ever.  Long before they were chocolate.

 

I almost forgot.  What do you call a Jewish Atheist?  Jewish.

 

 

[Pete]

I am aware of this. There are a lot beliefs around the season. The Goddess is sleeping. 

There is a lot around paganism in Christianity. Many miracles were first proclaimed about other gods and then blended into the narrative.. Then around most old UK churches they have grotesques and Gargoyles to ward off the evil spirits. Some are the craftsmanship trade marks but most are not.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

My animosity is towards those people who honestly feel their belief is the only one and then try to make everyone else believe the same as them.

 

Not even close to anti-semite, anti-hindu, or anti-satan or...well, you get the point, because none of them keep trying to make america a christian nation, it's only/always people like you and so, in that regard yes, I have contempt for you. As for the bumper sticker you have clearly shown you not only don't have a sense of humor, you don't understand humor.

 

You spend an awful lot of time here at ULC arguing with people which suggests that you need the support, the vitriol, the antagonism to support your beliefts. It's like you can't just go off and believe as you wish, instead you have to bring it in here and try and flog people. Because why else would such an upright x tian even bother with a place like the ULC, I hope dear Dog that you aren't an ordained minister here because that would be such perfect irony.

 

To your point, you can't know what happens after death (spoiler alert, non c'e niente dopo la morta) because no one has died and live to tell about it. What you 'believe' is a fantasy not unlike santa claus or the tooth fairy. And that's all fine, your life, your beliefs but the worse possible thing you do is to poison the minds of children, to brainwash them (as you probably/most likely were).

 

As much as you may think otherwise, had I been there I probably would have stood silently, trying to understand why the government felt it necessary to execute someone for a crime they didn't commit.  Who knows, I might have even fallen in with that stone mason and bonded over our dislike of the government as well as the religious ruling class.  After all the shaman was non-violent, preached peace and love, love they neighbor, etc, all those things people like you could learn from.

 

And as for shouting 'crucify him', that would have been you. How do I know? Because you are so devout in your belief you would have been a very, very strict jew,  a rabbi for sure but almost assuredly a pharisee and one of the jewish leaders who wanted the shaman dead. Because while you go on about heaven and hell and parrot the words of your shaman, you don't live those words. You are smug in your beliefs, condescending in your attitude and lack even the barest of compassion for anyone that doesn't believe as you do. I bet whatever you tithe goes only to your church, or towards only those that believe as you do. You are far removed from that murdered shaman but stand shoulder to shoulder with those that convicted him. There is no way a person like you would have not been shouting 'crucify him', it's what you are all about. And that...is truly sad.

 

 

Yes.               

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

I am aware of this. There are a lot beliefs around the season. The Goddess is sleeping. 

There is a lot around paganism in Christianity. Many miracles were first proclaimed about other gods and then blended into the narrative.. Then around most old UK churches they have grotesques and Gargoyles to ward off the evil spirits. Some are the craftsmanship trade marks but most are not.

 

A lot of the old Paganism is lurking.  Just under the surface.  Like an iceberg.  Then again, come Valentine's Day, what do we have?  Out in the open, hiding in plain sight?  Cupid, with his arrows.  The old gods never quite go away.

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, damnthing said:

My animosity is towards those people who honestly feel their belief is the only one and then try to make everyone else believe the same as them.

 

Not even close to anti-semite, anti-hindu, or anti-satan or...well, you get the point, because none of them keep trying to make america a christian nation, it's only/always people like you and so, in that regard yes, I have contempt for you. As for the bumper sticker you have clearly shown you not only don't have a sense of humor, you don't understand humor.

 

You spend an awful lot of time here at ULC arguing with people which suggests that you need the support, the vitriol, the antagonism to support your beliefts. It's like you can't just go off and believe as you wish, instead you have to bring it in here and try and flog people. Because why else would such an upright x tian even bother with a place like the ULC, I hope dear Dog that you aren't an ordained minister here because that would be such perfect irony.

 

To your point, you can't know what happens after death (spoiler alert, non c'e niente dopo la morta) because no one has died and live to tell about it. What you 'believe' is a fantasy not unlike santa claus or the tooth fairy. And that's all fine, your life, your beliefs but the worse possible thing you do is to poison the minds of children, to brainwash them (as you probably/most likely were).

 

As much as you may think otherwise, had I been there I probably would have stood silently, trying to understand why the government felt it necessary to execute someone for a crime they didn't commit.  Who knows, I might have even fallen in with that stone mason and bonded over our dislike of the government as well as the religious ruling class.  After all the shaman was non-violent, preached peace and love, love they neighbor, etc, all those things people like you could learn from.

 

And as for shouting 'crucify him', that would have been you. How do I know? Because you are so devout in your belief you would have been a very, very strict jew,  a rabbi for sure but almost assuredly a pharisee and one of the jewish leaders who wanted the shaman dead. Because while you go on about heaven and hell and parrot the words of your shaman, you don't live those words. You are smug in your beliefs, condescending in your attitude and lack even the barest of compassion for anyone that doesn't believe as you do. I bet whatever you tithe goes only to your church, or towards only those that believe as you do. You are far removed from that murdered shaman but stand shoulder to shoulder with those that convicted him. There is no way a person like you would have not been shouting 'crucify him', it's what you are all about. And that...is truly sad.

 

Of course, any real Christian believes there is one way, one truth, and one life that leads to eternal life (John 14:6). Nothing wrong with that, its called monotheism.

It doesn't force you to do likewise, so don't be afraid.

 

America is already a predominately Christian nation, I simply endorse those values and have no desire to 'force' others to do likewise. Part of my belief entails testifying of the faith, not running away, hiding, or being bullied into silence. 

 

I need no support to be a Christian, my faith isn't based on numbers, but 'One Solitary Life'

 

I state my belief, it is what it is, so I don't argue about it. Giving answers that others can't accept isn't arguing. I think your missing what encapsulates ULC, its not an Atheist only and no Christians allowed organization or forum.. ULC is all-encompassing, even welcoming those who believe in nothing.  

 

I've said many times that "no one knows nothing for certain". What I believe is just what I think and have accepted to be true, nothing more. So while you claim, "No one has died and lived to tell about it", your totally ignorant of the resurrection.

 

Your other assumptions are mindless projections. Suggesting that a Christian would have been demanding the crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous. Those type of comments are just made to bate Christians into defensive and hateful retorts.. Nice try though.

 

My initial comment in this thread was on topic, it was not my intent to stray, but comments about and against what I believe diverted the conversation. Sorry about that. 

[Dan56]

Accidental double post

Edited January 18, 2021 by Dan56
double post

[Pete]

21 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Of course, any real Christian believes there is one way, one truth, and one life that leads to eternal life (John 14:6). Nothing wrong with that, its called monotheism.

It doesn't force you to do likewise, so don't be afraid.

 

America is already a predominately Christian nation, I simply endorse those values and have no desire to 'force' others to do likewise. Part of my belief entails testifying of the faith, not running away, hiding, or being bullied into silence. 

 

I need no support to be a Christian, my faith isn't based on numbers, but 'One Solitary Life'

 

I state my belief, it is what it is, so I don't argue about it. Giving answers that others can't accept isn't arguing. I think your missing what encapsulates ULC, its not an Atheist only and no Christians allowed organization or forum.. ULC is all-encompassing, even welcoming those who believe in nothing.  

 

I've said many times that "no one knows nothing for certain". What I believe is just what I think and have accepted to be true, nothing more. So while you claim, "No one has died and lived to tell about it", your totally ignorant of the resurrection.

 

Your other assumptions are mindless projections. Suggesting that a Christian would have been demanding the crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous. Those type of comments are just made to bate Christians into defensive and hateful retorts.. Nice try though.

 

My initial comment in this thread was on topic, it was not my intent to stray, but comments about and against what I believe diverted the conversation. Sorry about that. 

I beg to differ. We have said many times we do not want to hear your dogma but you still persist. If anyone disagrees with you are constantly trying to justify it. It cannot be related to because it does not fit our view of reality. However, here you are on an atheist/agnostic section of the board constantly arguing. You make an unfounded comments and then try to.justify it with more unfounded comments.  I would say you are the most argumentative person on the board. If you say something and another disagrees with you, do you leave it there. No. You will argue till everyone is frustrated by you.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

50 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Of course, any real Christian believes there is one way, one truth, and one life that leads to eternal life (John 14:6). Nothing wrong with that, its called monotheism.

It doesn't force you to do likewise, so don't be afraid.

 

America is already a predominately Christian nation, I simply endorse those values and have no desire to 'force' others to do likewise. Part of my belief entails testifying of the faith, not running away, hiding, or being bullied into silence. 

 

I need no support to be a Christian, my faith isn't based on numbers, but 'One Solitary Life'

 

I state my belief, it is what it is, so I don't argue about it. Giving answers that others can't accept isn't arguing. I think your missing what encapsulates ULC, its not an Atheist only and no Christians allowed organization or forum.. ULC is all-encompassing, even welcoming those who believe in nothing.  

 

I've said many times that "no one knows nothing for certain". What I believe is just what I think and have accepted to be true, nothing more. So while you claim, "No one has died and lived to tell about it", your totally ignorant of the resurrection.

 

Your other assumptions are mindless projections. Suggesting that a Christian would have been demanding the crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous. Those type of comments are just made to bate Christians into defensive and hateful retorts.. Nice try though.

 

My initial comment in this thread was on topic, it was not my intent to stray, but comments about and against what I believe diverted the conversation. Sorry about that. 

 

 

Dan, you have put me into the unhappy position of having to agree with you.  You are not the problem.  The problem is Monotheism.  Sadly, your understanding of Monotheism is spot on.  The God of Monotheism -- as portrayed in the Bible -- is not Interfaith.  Neither is he a liberal.

 

I went to Biblegateway.com and did a simple word search on "every knee".  These are the relevant passages that came up.

 

1. Isaiah 45:23
   By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
2.  
3. Romans 14:11
   It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

   Philippians 2:10
4. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

In the end, the Bible is what it is.  Not what I want it to be.  Not even what you want it to be.  It is an awful book, that does not reflect my values.  The difference is orientation.  I see hateful mythology.  You see actual truth and goodness.  It doesn't help anything, to lie about what the Bible actually says, or what the Human authors intended.  The truth is the truth.  I will not pretend.

 

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

I beg to differ. We have said many times we do not want to hear your dogma but you still persist. If anyone disagrees with you are constantly trying to justify it. It cannot be related to because it does not fit our view of reality. However, here you are on an atheist/agnostic section of the board constantly arguing. You make an unfounded comments and then try to.justify it with more unfounded comments.  I would say you are the most argumentative person on the board. If you say something and another disagrees with you, do you leave it there. No. You will argue till everyone is frustrated by you.

 

This isn't your bully pulpit, its open to all.. How many Christians have fled this forum after being attacked? No one is forcing you to accept the bible, so stop condemning people who believe it. "We don't want to hear it... It doesn't fit our view". I didn't know it was an exclusive club limited to atheist? Yes, I disagree with people who condemn and mock my God. As my first post in this thread said, "You have no argument because you believe in nothing and have nothing to defend". So I doubt your frustration is with me, but emanates from within yourself.

[damnthing]

15 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Of course, any real Christian believes there is one way, one truth, and one life that leads to eternal life (John 14:6). Nothing wrong with that, its called monotheism.

It doesn't force you to do likewise, so don't be afraid.

 

America is already a predominately Christian nation, I simply endorse those values and have no desire to 'force' others to do likewise. Part of my belief entails testifying of the faith, not running away, hiding, or being bullied into silence. 

 

I need no support to be a Christian, my faith isn't based on numbers, but 'One Solitary Life'

 

I state my belief, it is what it is, so I don't argue about it. Giving answers that others can't accept isn't arguing. I think your missing what encapsulates ULC, its not an Atheist only and no Christians allowed organization or forum.. ULC is all-encompassing, even welcoming those who believe in nothing.  

 

I've said many times that "no one knows nothing for certain". What I believe is just what I think and have accepted to be true, nothing more. So while you claim, "No one has died and lived to tell about it", your totally ignorant of the resurrection.

 

Your other assumptions are mindless projections. Suggesting that a Christian would have been demanding the crucifixion of Christ is ridiculous. Those type of comments are just made to bate Christians into defensive and hateful retorts.. Nice try though.

 

My initial comment in this thread was on topic, it was not my intent to stray, but comments about and against what I believe diverted the conversation. Sorry about that. 

You do cherry pick, I'll give you that. And "...mindless projections...", I believe it was you who had me shouting crucify him. I never said anything about a x tian demanding the crucifixion of the stone mason? You were the one who said I would have shouted 'crucify him'. All I did was do the same thing as you, put you in that time and place and if you re-read what I wrote, I pegged you as being there as a very, very devout jew, a pharisee, demanding the shaman be executed. You wouldn't have been there as a x tian but as a jew, at that time there were no 'christians', only jews who thought the shaman a messiah.

 

America is 'barely' christian and if it continues could become even more secular. Regardless, religion doesn't and shouldn't have anything to do with ruling or living or voting or anything, in this country. And that is why I dislike x tians, you absolutely freak out at the thought of america under sharia law but comically push to make america and all americans live under x tian rule/law.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

38 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

This isn't your bully pulpit, its open to all.. How many Christians have fled this forum after being attacked? No one is forcing you to accept the bible, so stop condemning people who believe it. "We don't want to hear it... It doesn't fit our view". I didn't know it was an exclusive club limited to atheist? Yes, I disagree with people who condemn and mock my God. As my first post in this thread said, "You have no argument because you believe in nothing and have nothing to defend". So I doubt your frustration is with me, but emanates from within yourself.

 

No, Dan.  It's you.  Even now, you misrepresent Atheism.  Since you are incapable of learning, I'll stop here.

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

This isn't your bully pulpit, its open to all.. How many Christians have fled this forum after being attacked? No one is forcing you to accept the bible, so stop condemning people who believe it. "We don't want to hear it... It doesn't fit our view". I didn't know it was an exclusive club limited to atheist? Yes, I disagree with people who condemn and mock my God. As my first post in this thread said, "You have no argument because you believe in nothing and have nothing to defend". So I doubt your frustration is with me, but emanates from within yourself.

Your in the Atheist/Agnostic section of the forum. Yet, you come here to proclaim your god without any consideration for the views of people here. You are the bully. Your the one attacking. You just cannot accept that someone cannot see things your way and here you are persisting again. I would say take a look at yourself but insight ain't your strong point.

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

No, Dan.  It's you.  Even now, you misrepresent Atheism.  Since you are incapable of learning, I'll stop here.

 

 

Nothing to misrepresent, Atheist believe in no God or deity, nothing complex about that, so what's there to learn? You have repeatedly said that you believe in nothing and don't care about anything (Apatheism). It doesn't take a genius to comprehend the depth of that statement.

 

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Your in the Atheist/Agnostic section of the forum. Yet, you come here to proclaim your god without any consideration for the views of people here. You are the bully. Your the one attacking. You just cannot accept that someone cannot see things your way and here you are persisting again. I would say take a look at yourself but insight ain't your strong point.

 

If you refer to my first 3 post on page one of this thread, I didn't mention God or my belief. So I stayed on topic until you guys brought the biblical God up.

When I remain steadfast in my belief, its not an attack or an expectation that others see things my way, but rather an explanation of why I believe as I do.

 

Nonetheless, I will exit this thread now.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Nothing to misrepresent, Atheist believe in no God or deity, nothing complex about that, so what's there to learn? You have repeatedly said that you believe in nothing and don't care about anything (Apatheism). It doesn't take a genius to comprehend the depth of that statement.

 

 

If you refer to my first 3 post on page one of this thread, I didn't mention God or my belief. So I stayed on topic until you guys brought the biblical God up.

When I remain steadfast in my belief, its not an attack or an expectation that others see things my way, but rather an explanation of why I believe as I do.

 

Nonetheless, I will exit this thread now.

 

Not believing in God, is not the same as believing in nothing.

 

Not caring about God, is not the same as caring about nothing.

 

These distinctions don't require genius.  It seems they do exceed your capacity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[damnthing]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/19/nyregion/church-of-satan-poughkeepsie-burned-down.html

So one has to wonder: jilted lover, angry neighbor, competing satanist, righteous x tian, angry jew, hippy hindu, mad muslim, shifty scientologist, manic mormon? Who would want to burn down a church, why? Oh the humanity

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/19/nyregion/church-of-satan-poughkeepsie-burned-down.html

So one has to wonder: jilted lover, angry neighbor, competing satanist, righteous x tian, angry jew, hippy hindu, mad muslim, shifty scientologist, manic mormon? Who would want to burn down a church, why? Oh the humanity

 

 

I'm confident that we can go with the obvious.  A self righteous servant of God.  Only the flavor is in doubt.

 

[Cornelius]

Dan has every right, like every other poster, to post his views, beliefs, and opinions on any part of this forum as long as it follows the TOS. Just because a forum is labeled atheist doesn’t mean you have the right to silence him here or he is somehow banned from this part of the forum. End of story. Period. You are out of line. 

[Pete]

I used to defend him as having every right as any other belief but it gets so invasive till every conversation is about him and his judgements on the beliefs of others. It got to me in the end.  We get a lot of condemning beliefs in the UK too. People trying to burn down mosques and destroying Jewish and Islamic grave stones.

it would be nice to have a conversation on agnostic/atheist posts without evangelical intervention. 

He has of course every right to believe as he does but we also should have every right not to believe the same. Why not just accept we are different and leave it there but as he said it is part of his faith to continue to preach his view. That is when it becomes wearing after a while.

It is the reason I don't come on here as often as I used too. I don't want to continually talk about his view of christianity and the bible every time. Surely there is more to talk about than this. I don't want to offend but it is so hard at times and especially when you feel bullied by his faith. Sorry about this but there are two sides to this.