Is the death penalty morally right?

[Pete]

41 minutes ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

Not at all Pete. What I said was,

 

There can be no transgression of the law until the law has been given.

Yet, that means the law (which saves no one) is only there because god has two standards. One he applied to Cain and the other to the Jews later. Your god had mercy to Cain and later was hell bent on kill that person and this person and then later still, decides to have himself killed so he can forgive rather than just forgive. Do you understand. It can work if god has more than one standard to people. Either that or it's nonsense.and god is not always the same.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

57 minutes ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

Not at all Pete. What I said was,

 

There can be no transgression of the law until the law has been given.

 

 

Interesting.  That means when Cain killed Abel -- he did nothing wrong.  Yet, he acted like a guilty person.  God also seemed disturbed.

 

A small point in passing.  Cain was afraid that people would kill him.  What other people were there?  Besides his parents?  

 

 

 

 

[damnthing]

It comes down to this; is society willing to risk executing an innocent person (it is estimated that 1 in 25 prisoners sentenced to death is innocent) in order to execute 24 guilty ones? Are the deaths of four innocent people acceptable in order for those other 96 to be executed?

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

27 minutes ago, damnthing said:

It comes down to this; is society willing to risk executing an innocent person (it is estimated that 1 in 25 prisoners sentenced to death is innocent) in order to execute 24 guilty ones? Are the deaths of four innocent people acceptable in order for those other 96 to be executed?

 

 

 

 

 

For me -- No.

 

 

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, Pete said:

I thought Jesus did away with the law. Why obey just this one and not the one about killing everyone in a nearby town who had someone preaching another religion.  

I also note that Christianity is popular in prisons. Are you saying you would pray with them and throw the switch. It seems like double standards to me.

 

I know you don't like bible quotes but "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5: 17-18). All but one sin is forgivable, but laws have penalties in the here & now. Praying for ones soul does not exempt them of paying for their crime. Jesus did away with the curse of the law (sin=death), but that just has a spiritual application, it doesn't absolve a person from paying their dues for law breaking in the flesh.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I know you don't like bible quotes but "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5: 17-18). All but one sin is forgivable, but laws have penalties in the here & now. Praying for ones soul does not exempt them of paying for their crime. Jesus did away with the curse of the law (sin=death), but that just has a spiritual application, it doesn't absolve a person from paying their dues for law breaking in the flesh.

The question is not paying a debt or being rehabilitated to society but you judge a person to death. Each of the gospels tell you not to judge. That is not to say there should be no law, but to say you have sin worthy of death too according to the bible. For you to want death is putting you as being let off your sin but inflicting judgement on others. As the parable of the debtor who was forgiven his debts but then punished for not forgiving debts owed him.

The other thing is most murders are done by the poor and disturbed.  So I think those who insist it has to be the death sentence lack understanding or love for their neighbour.  Long prison sentences yes but not death. That puts the US in the bracket as China in that so many are killed by the law.

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

The question is not paying a debt or being rehabilitated to society but you judge a person to death. Each of the gospels tell you not to judge. That is not to say there should be no law, but to say you have sin worthy of death too according to the bible. For you to want death is putting you as being let off your sin but inflicting judgement on others. As the parable of the debtor who was forgiven his debts but then punished for not forgiving debts owed him.

The other thing is most murders are done by the poor and disturbed.  So I think those who insist it has to be the death sentence lack understanding or love for their neighbour.  Long prison sentences yes but not death. That puts the US in the bracket as China in that so many are killed by the law.

 

The law judges a person to death, a jury only determines guilt. The bible doesn't say not to judge,  it just instills that you will be judge by the same measure that you judge others. I wouldn't expect to be 'let off' if I murdered someone. Loving your neighbor is also applying a proper penalty upon the person who kills your neighbor. It doesn't matter to me if a rich & smart or a poor & stupid person commits murder, the law should be applied equally to both. That's just how I look at it.

[Pete]

Matthew 7

1

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Likewise



Luke 6:37

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. 

 

I think that says do not judge. It also says if you judge someone to die, then so will you will also.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

50 minutes ago, Pete said:

Matthew 7

1

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Likewise



Luke 6:37

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. 

 

I think that says do not judge. It also says if you judge someone to die, then so will you will also.

 

 

 

Yes.  That is exactly what it says.

 

 

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Matthew 7

1

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Likewise



Luke 6:37

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. 

 

I think that says do not judge. It also says if you judge someone to die, then so will you will also.

 

You need to keep reading for context, when Jesus says, “Judge not”, he’s not really issuing a prohibition on judging others, but is referring to hypocritical judgement or spiritual condemnation. Matthew 7:3-5 explains that a hypocrite judges a person wrongly when they are guilty of the same thing;. "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." So the passage warns of the human tendency to condemn others for flaws that we are likewise at fault of. Paul warned of the same thing, "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:3).

 

Another passage in John 7:24 says, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment". So this commands us to judge.. Everyone must judge right from wrong, good from bad, etc. "Judge not" does not mean we cannot show discernment, because its necessary, but spiritually condemning a person is God's domain. Luke 17:3 says; "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him". This certainly requires a person to exercise some judgement, every decision and choice we make requires judgement, but the emphases is on righteous judgement.

 

Realistically, people make judgments all the time. If a person commits murder, should a Christian look at that action and say, “That was wrong because God’s Word says not to murder,” or should he say, “I’m not supposed to make a judgment”? And what if someone steals from you, would you say, “That was wrong because God’s Word says not to steal,” or would you say, “I’m not supposed to make a judgment”? If someone tells us that we need to stop judging others, they have actually just judged us, so they are guilty of doing the very thing they tell us not to do.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Dan56

[Pete]

I believe the point still stands. You are judged worthy of death but saved by the blood of Jesus are now judging another as worthy of death. How is that not look at a splinter in another's eyes when you have wood in your own. 

Now don't come the spiritual line or we are saying the bible is only sometimes true and cannot be taken as literal.

[Pete]

I know this will not mean much to you Dan but the Pope, Baptist church, United Evangelicals church, Episcopalian church, Quakers, Unitarian church, Lutheran church, and the Methodist church have all said it is not Christian to support the death penalty. Maybe they don't have the same bible as you or do not see it your way.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Pete

[cuchulain]

17 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I know you don't like bible quotes but "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5: 17-18). All but one sin is forgivable, but laws have penalties in the here & now. Praying for ones soul does not exempt them of paying for their crime. Jesus did away with the curse of the law (sin=death), but that just has a spiritual application, it doesn't absolve a person from paying their dues for law breaking in the flesh.

By this standard we should uphold ALL the old law.  Add in that he who has sinned in his heart bit, and we all get the death penalty for our thoughts.

 

Way to go, thought police...if there were anyone left to enforce it.

 

Or were you cherry picking again?

[Pete]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

By this standard we should uphold ALL the old law.  Add in that he who has sinned in his heart bit, and we all get the death penalty for our thoughts.

 

Way to go, thought police...if there were anyone left to enforce it.

 

Or were you cherry picking again?

The law includes taking slaves and permission to beat them, stoning gay people; killing disrespectful children, killing everyone in neighbouring towns who have someone preaching another religion,, stoning none virgin brides, burning wayward daughters of priests ect. If the law was followed then we would all be on death row.

Jesus even went further as you say even if you think about killing someone you are guilty of murder. I am so glad we do not follow the biblical law. Most Christians seem to cherry pick which laws they like and quote and pretend the rest don't exist.

[Dan56]

I believe you guys are the cherry pickers? Its true, everyone is worthy of death, but believers are saved in Christ (spiritually speaking). I am not judging others to be worthy of death, because from a biblical perspective,

anyone outside of Christ is already dead (Revelation 20: 12-13).

 

Its also true that the Pope and I are rarely on the same page . Without penalties, lawlessness would abound.

 

Much of the 613 Mosaic Laws were only intended to govern the Hebrew nation, they were fulfilled or satisfied in Christ. 

We are now to submit to the laws of the governing authorities (Romans 13: 1-10). I simply believe that the eye for an eye and a life for a life penalties are the most effective as a deterrent against violent crimes.

 

Christians still have the commandments and the 2 greatest ones recited by Christ (Matthew 22: 35-40).

Jesus removed the curse of the law, whereby the  moral standards required of the Israelites are no longer punishable by death (physically or spiritually).

This doesn't exclude punishment for harmful crimes against other people though. Jesus taught not to avenge, but never suggested that no laws needed to be enforced.

 

But in regards to judgement, we are not to hypocritically judge or spiritually condemn others. But obviously, bad behavior requires common sense judgement, law & order can't exist without it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Dan56

[Pete]

None of that made any contribution to the debate and was one of your famous smoke screens. You were the one quoting the OT law to back up your belief in the death penalty. That is the only reason I mentioned it. 

If Jesus said love your enemies and do unto others what you want them to do unto you. How do you equate that with to support the death penalty. I did at one time nurse people who had committed murder. None of them would I recommend the death penalty. Many took to their rehabilitation and are now living costructively  in the community again. I call that a job well done. It allowed for people to turn their lives around and turn away from the old days. Many were the product of poverty and abuse. I thought Christians would get that and support it rather than wanting revenge. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 minutes ago, Pete said:

None of that made any contribution to the debate and was one of your famous smoke screens. You were the one quoting the OT law to back up your belief in the death penalty. That is the only reason I mentioned it. 

If Jesus said love your enemies and do unto others what you want them to do unto you. How do you equate that with to support the death penalty. I did at one time nurse people who had committed murder. None of them would I recommend the death penalty. Many took to their rehabilitation and are now living costructively  in the community again. I call that a job well done. It allowed for people to turn their lives around and turn away from the old days. Many were the product of poverty and abuse. I thought Christians would get that and support it rather than wanting revenge. 

 

Of course.  This is what Dan does.  I suggest disengaging.

 

 

 

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Of course.  This is what Dan does.  I suggest disengaging.

 

 

 

Yes, as it pointless.

[damnthing]

I'm confused, the discussion is whether or not the death sentence is morally right yet it's being bogged down by (if you'll excuse me) silly ass quoting from some mythology text book (or as I just saw it, The Goat Herder's Guide to the Galaxy). This discussion appears to be guided by some very specific Christian viewpoint which, while it may have had some relevance longtime past in developing laws with which to govern, to continue to insist that they hold some relevance today suggests either some intellectual disability or yet more magical thinking and woo

[Pete]

It was done so because this is a monotheist section and I am discussing it from their perspective. This is by an large a Christian section. For me morals are not from a book of dodgy quotes with a questionable  source but for people here it is. So I used their language against them. I agree the arguments have grown silly and the game is one of dodge the question rather than hold to a logical thread of a debate. Hence, I take Jonathan's advice and go back where I am comfortable with the logic of science and constructive thought. See you there friend.