Do They Really Believe That?

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Your bald assertions are getting even more outlandish and weird.  I have said this in the past.  It's worth repeating.  You're obviously making this crap up as you go.

 

 

Its my interpretation and my opinion.. If you think I'm wrong and believe God answers all prayers, pray for $1 million or a new car and let me know how that's works out for ya . If you believe God protects Christians, why are they victims of crime & violence? Why didn't God prevent prophets & apostles from being killed? If you think God knows everything people would do, why bother asking them to believe in him? If God already knows who will be saved, why not suspend the game and go straight to judgement? My answers are logical,  sorry if your having trouble grasping the answers. Maybe you've just been too subjected to TV preachers who never cover more than once bible verse at a time?   

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its my interpretation and my opinion.. If you think I'm wrong and believe God answers all prayers, pray for $1 million or a new car and let me know how that's works out for ya . If you believe God protects Christians, why are they victims of crime & violence? Why didn't God prevent prophets & apostles from being killed? If you think God knows everything people would do, why bother asking them to believe in him? If God already knows who will be saved, why not suspend the game and go straight to judgement? My answers are logical,  sorry if your having trouble grasping the answers. Maybe you've just been too subjected to TV preachers who never cover more than once bible verse at a time?   

The bible is not logical. God crestes people, knows they will sin, then is buy destroying them, then makes a most brutal law that saves no one, and then kills himself because he just cannot forgive just to save them from his own anger. It's not logical Dan. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its my interpretation and my opinion.. If you think I'm wrong and believe God answers all prayers, pray for $1 million or a new car and let me know how that's works out for ya . If you believe God protects Christians, why are they victims of crime & violence? Why didn't God prevent prophets & apostles from being killed? If you think God knows everything people would do, why bother asking them to believe in him? If God already knows who will be saved, why not suspend the game and go straight to judgement? My answers are logical,  sorry if your having trouble grasping the answers. Maybe you've just been too subjected to TV preachers who never cover more than once bible verse at a time?   

 

 

You're the one, who believes this mythology has anything to do with reality.  Not me.  I read the Book.  I see the disconnects.  Of course -- I think it's silly.

 

I don't take prayer seriously.  I don't take God seriously.  God's protection is a fantasy.  For all that, I know the standard theology.  That silly, ludicrous theology.  And I read the Book.

 

If you would stop trying to persuade me that you're right -- about everything -- we would not be having this conversation.  You want to proclaim your truth?  I'm going to explain why I'm not buying.

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

The bible is not logical. God crestes people, knows they will sin, then is buy destroying them, then makes a most brutal law that saves no one, and then kills himself because he just cannot forgive just to save them from his own anger. It's not logical Dan. 

 

Well, it all makes perfect sense to me. If God wanted to destroy us, He would have already done it. Instead, He provided a way to save everyone. God will not only forgive, He'll erase every offense from the record. Can't ask for anymore than that. You only choose to see the negative, while completely dismissing the positive. God will only get rid of those who reject Him and rebel against Him, can't really blame Him for that, you'd probably do the same thing? 

 

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You're the one, who believes this mythology has anything to do with reality.  Not me.  I read the Book.  I see the disconnects.  Of course -- I think it's silly.

 

I don't take prayer seriously.  I don't take God seriously.  God's protection is a fantasy.  For all that, I know the standard theology.  That silly, ludicrous theology.  And I read the Book.

 

If you would stop trying to persuade me that you're right -- about everything -- we would not be having this conversation.  You want to proclaim your truth?  I'm going to explain why I'm not buying.

 

 

 

I don't persuade (obviously), I simply state what I believe. Its the truth to me, its what the bible says, that's why I include all those verses. I understand that your blind to the Truth and closed minded, but I still feel compelled to correct those who may have read the book, but absorbed none of it. As I've stated, If I interpreted things like you guys do, I wouldn't believe anything either.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Well, it all makes perfect sense to me. If God wanted to destroy us, He would have already done it. Instead, He provided a way to save everyone. God will not only forgive, He'll erase every offense from the record. Can't ask for anymore than that. You only choose to see the negative, while completely dismissing the positive. God will only get rid of those who reject Him and rebel against Him, can't really blame Him for that, you'd probably do the same thing? 

 

 

I don't persuade (obviously), I simply state what I believe. Its the truth to me, its what the bible says, that's why I include all those verses. I understand that your blind to the Truth and closed minded, but I still feel compelled to correct those who may have read the book, but absorbed none of it. As I've stated, If I interpreted things like you guys do, I wouldn't believe anything either.  

 

 

 I understand that your blind to the Truth and closed minded,

 

but I still feel compelled to correct those who may have read the book, but absorbed none of it.

 

This is why having a conversation with you, is both useless and irritating.   

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its my interpretation and my opinion.. If you think I'm wrong and believe God answers all prayers, pray for $1 million or a new car and let me know how that's works out for ya . If you believe God protects Christians, why are they victims of crime & violence? Why didn't God prevent prophets & apostles from being killed? If you think God knows everything people would do, why bother asking them to believe in him? If God already knows who will be saved, why not suspend the game and go straight to judgement? My answers are logical,  sorry if your having trouble grasping the answers. Maybe you've just been too subjected to TV preachers who never cover more than once bible verse at a time?   

You see logic in this but these are examples of why we don't believe.  God is supposed to answer prayers, and if he is perfect so to would his works be.  Yet it isn't, as you pointed out.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

26 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

You see logic in this but these are examples of why we don't believe.  God is supposed to answer prayers, and if he is perfect so to would his works be.  Yet it isn't, as you pointed out.

 

 

Yes.  No critical thinking skills.  Not a hint of logic.     

 

You must have noticed.  When prayer fails -- When God's protection fails -- Dan is arguing that this is proof of God.          

 

The rabbit hole is deep.        

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

You see logic in this but these are examples of why we don't believe.  God is supposed to answer prayers, and if he is perfect so to would his works be.  Yet it isn't, as you pointed out.

 

Yes, I understand that.. I never said God doesn't answer prayers, I said He doesn't respond to prayers outside of His Will.. Experience has taught me that.. That's why I suggested trying to pray for materialistic gains, I think you'll find that my theory is correct.  His works are perfect, its our works that corrupted what was good. We live in a world of sin now (post Genesis 2), so its an imperfect, cruel, and evil world. We chose the knowledge of evil and we can't obtain that knowledge by living in a good world,  so its not God's works that are in question. 

 

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 I understand that your blind to the Truth and closed minded,

 

but I still feel compelled to correct those who may have read the book, but absorbed none of it.

 

This is why having a conversation with you, is both useless and irritating.   

 

No insult intended, but you must admit that your not exactly open to biblical thinking. You pretty much misconstrue everything the bible teaches as an excuse not to believe it. Surface reading or skimming over the content does not allow a person to understand, and you can't believe what you don't understand. E.g; God kills = God is bad.. I pray for $$ and God no give = God is bad.. I have headache and God no fix = God is bad... That's pretty much the depth you guys get from the Word of God .. That's why I said that if I perceived it all like you do, I'd be an Atheist too.

 

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I understand that.. I never said God doesn't answer prayers, I said He doesn't respond to prayers outside of His Will.. Experience has taught me that.. That's why I suggested trying to pray for materialistic gains, I think you'll find that my theory is correct.  His works are perfect, its our works that corrupted what was good. We live in a world of sin now (post Genesis 2), so its an imperfect, cruel, and evil world. We chose the knowledge of evil and we can't obtain that knowledge by living in a good world,  so its not God's works that are in question. 

 

 

No insult intended, but you must admit that your not exactly open to biblical thinking. You pretty much misconstrue everything the bible teaches as an excuse not to believe it. Surface reading or skimming over the content does not allow a person to understand, and you can't believe what you don't understand. E.g; God kills = God is bad.. I pray for $$ and God no give = God is bad.. I have headache and God no fix = God is bad... That's pretty much the depth you guys get from the Word of God .. That's why I said that if I perceived it all like you do, I'd be an Atheist too.

 

Because biblical thinking is not logical or scientific.  It's your belief I get that, but you cannot say it's more than that.

[cuchulain]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I understand that.. I never said God doesn't answer prayers, I said He doesn't respond to prayers outside of His Will.. Experience has taught me that.. That's why I suggested trying to pray for materialistic gains, I think you'll find that my theory is correct.  His works are perfect, its our works that corrupted what was good. We live in a world of sin now (post Genesis 2), so its an imperfect, cruel, and evil world. We chose the knowledge of evil and we can't obtain that knowledge by living in a good world,  so its not God's works that are in question. 

 

 

No insult intended, but you must admit that your not exactly open to biblical thinking. You pretty much misconstrue everything the bible teaches as an excuse not to believe it. Surface reading or skimming over the content does not allow a person to understand, and you can't believe what you don't understand. E.g; God kills = God is bad.. I pray for $$ and God no give = God is bad.. I have headache and God no fix = God is bad... That's pretty much the depth you guys get from the Word of God .. That's why I said that if I perceived it all like you do, I'd be an Atheist too.

 

If I, knowing the consequences, choose to point a gun at someone and shoot, and they die... I am responsible.  Especially if I designed the gun, bullet, and manufactured the circumstances so the person would be in front of me, and designed the laws of physics and the person's anatomy and assured what would happen.  

 

But you seem to say the bullet is responsible.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I understand that.. I never said God doesn't answer prayers, I said He doesn't respond to prayers outside of His Will.. Experience has taught me that.. That's why I suggested trying to pray for materialistic gains, I think you'll find that my theory is correct.  His works are perfect, its our works that corrupted what was good. We live in a world of sin now (post Genesis 2), so its an imperfect, cruel, and evil world. We chose the knowledge of evil and we can't obtain that knowledge by living in a good world,  so its not God's works that are in question. 

 

 

No insult intended, but you must admit that your not exactly open to biblical thinking. You pretty much misconstrue everything the bible teaches as an excuse not to believe it. Surface reading or skimming over the content does not allow a person to understand, and you can't believe what you don't understand. E.g; God kills = God is bad.. I pray for $$ and God no give = God is bad.. I have headache and God no fix = God is bad... That's pretty much the depth you guys get from the Word of God .. That's why I said that if I perceived it all like you do, I'd be an Atheist too.

 

 

 

No insult intended, but you must admit that your not exactly open to biblical thinking.

I care about critical thinking.  I care about logical thinking.  I care about clear thinking.  I care about thinking based on reality.  Biblical thinking is none of these.

 

 

You pretty much misconstrue everything the bible teaches as an excuse not to believe it.

• I have not misconstrued anything.  Your assertion to the contrary, does not make it so.
• I don't need "an excuse not to believe it."  I need a reason to take it seriously.  Your tedious lectures on faith, are not a reason, to take it seriously.

 

You have engaged me for one reason.  You are determined to replace my error, with your truth.  This is explicit in everything you say to me.  I am finding this tedious and unpleasant.  If you expect subordination from me -- out of respect to your wonderful, culturally dominant faith -- you are in for a disappointment.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Because biblical thinking is not logical or scientific.  It's your belief I get that, but you cannot say it's more than that.

 

I believe the bible is logical, but in a spiritual way that escapes nonbelievers.. And I've never claimed it was anything but my belief.. You guys simply make some ridiculous comments, such as 'The bible claims the earth is flat, because it describes it as having four corners'. So I just explain that the 4 corners of the earth is a reference to the 4 directions , north, east, west, & south. Skeptics always take a half verse and run with it, while overlooking the context of what's actually being said. 

 

6 hours ago, cuchulain said:

If I, knowing the consequences, choose to point a gun at someone and shoot, and they die... I am responsible.  Especially if I designed the gun, bullet, and manufactured the circumstances so the person would be in front of me, and designed the laws of physics and the person's anatomy and assured what would happen.  

 

But you seem to say the bullet is responsible.

 

Your analogy falls apart because God does not pull the trigger.. And no, I blame the person who pulls the trigger, not the bullet. Just because God set the particular circumstances of the human condition, doesn't make him responsible for human decisions. God told Adam that if he ate of the tree, he would surely die. God did not put a gun to his head and make him eat, let alone pull the trigger. God hasn't spiritually killed anyone yet, and its not His desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).

 

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

No insult intended, but you must admit that your not exactly open to biblical thinking.

I care about critical thinking.  I care about logical thinking.  I care about clear thinking.  I care about thinking based on reality.  Biblical thinking is none of these.

 

 

You pretty much misconstrue everything the bible teaches as an excuse not to believe it.

• I have not misconstrued anything.  Your assertion to the contrary, does not make it so.
• I don't need "an excuse not to believe it."  I need a reason to take it seriously.  Your tedious lectures on faith, are not a reason, to take it seriously.

 

You have engaged me for one reason.  You are determined to replace my error, with your truth.  This is explicit in everything you say to me.  I am finding this tedious and unpleasant.  If you expect subordination from me -- out of respect to your wonderful, culturally dominant faith -- you are in for a disappointment.

 

 

As I answered Pete, I believe the bible is logical, clear, and real... You obviously don't think the same, and its not my mission to change that. No one here is subordinate to anyone, I believe you've mistaken me defending my faith as an effort to make others believe as I do.. I simply correct inaccurate depictions of bible passages, not to sway others, but to correct some unfounded and exaggerated assumptions. Your always free to correct my error, so the same courtesy should be extended to me. And no, you don't need an excuse not to believe anymore than I need an excuse to believe.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

19 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I believe the bible is logical, but in a spiritual way that escapes nonbelievers.. And I've never claimed it was anything but my belief.. You guys simply make some ridiculous comments, such as 'The bible claims the earth is flat, because it describes it as having four corners'. So I just explain that the 4 corners of the earth is a reference to the 4 directions , north, east, west, & south. Skeptics always take a half verse and run with it, while overlooking the context of what's actually being said. 

 

 

Your analogy falls apart because God does not pull the trigger.. And no, I blame the person who pulls the trigger, not the bullet. Just because God set the particular circumstances of the human condition, doesn't make him responsible for human decisions. God told Adam that if he ate of the tree, he would surely die. God did not put a gun to his head and make him eat, let alone pull the trigger. God hasn't spiritually killed anyone yet, and its not His desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).

 

 

As I answered Pete, I believe the bible is logical, clear, and real... You obviously don't think the same, and its not my mission to change that. No one here is subordinate to anyone, I believe you've mistaken me defending my faith as an effort to make others believe as I do.. I simply correct inaccurate depictions of bible passages, not to sway others, but to correct some unfounded and exaggerated assumptions. Your always free to correct my error, so the same courtesy should be extended to me. And no, you don't need an excuse not to believe anymore than I need an excuse to believe.  

 

 

I believe the bible is logical, but in a spiritual way that escapes nonbelievers..

Logic is logic.  Like math is math.  If your logic requires spirituality, it is not logic.  If it requires belief, it is not logic.     

 

As I answered Pete, I believe the bible is logical, clear, and real..

Of course, you believe that.     😛     🤣

 

 

[Pete]

Dan if the truth of logic is not recognisable to a non believer it aint logical. Logic requires an argument built on facts. Beliefs are not facts. That is why they are called beliefs and not facts.

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I believe the bible is logical, but in a spiritual way that escapes nonbelievers..

Logic is logic.  Like math is math.  If your logic requires spirituality, it is not logic.  If it requires belief, it is not logic.     

 

As I answered Pete, I believe the bible is logical, clear, and real..

Of course, you believe that.     😛     🤣

 

 

31 minutes ago, Pete said:

Dan if the truth of logic is not recognisable to a non believer it aint logical. Logic requires an argument built on facts. Beliefs are not facts. That is why they are called beliefs and not facts.

 

 

Of course, I'd disagree with both of you... There's a variety of logic, something that makes sense can be logical. Faith establishes the principles from which we reason logically. The Bible teaches that God is logical. The Bible says that God does not contradict Himself, and when God declares that something is true, then it is really true. The notion of “faith versus reason” is an example of a false dichotomy. Faith is not antagonistic to reason. On the contrary, biblical faith and reason go well together. The problem lies in the fact that many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with the senses.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

 

Of course, I'd disagree with both of you... There's a variety of logic, something that makes sense can be logical. Faith establishes the principles from which we reason logically. The Bible teaches that God is logical. The Bible says that God does not contradict Himself, and when God declares that something is true, then it is really true. The notion of “faith versus reason” is an example of a false dichotomy. Faith is not antagonistic to reason. On the contrary, biblical faith and reason go well together. The problem lies in the fact that many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with th.e senses

 

 

Uh-huh.     

 

Why do you hate reality?     

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I believe the bible is logical, but in a spiritual way that escapes nonbelievers.. And I've never claimed it was anything but my belief.. You guys simply make some ridiculous comments, such as 'The bible claims the earth is flat, because it describes it as having four corners'. So I just explain that the 4 corners of the earth is a reference to the 4 directions , north, east, west, & south. Skeptics always take a half verse and run with it, while overlooking the context of what's actually being said. 

 

 

Your analogy falls apart because God does not pull the trigger.. And no, I blame the person who pulls the trigger, not the bullet. Just because God set the particular circumstances of the human condition, doesn't make him responsible for human decisions. God told Adam that if he ate of the tree, he would surely die. God did not put a gun to his head and make him eat, let alone pull the trigger. God hasn't spiritually killed anyone yet, and its not His desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).

 

 

As I answered Pete, I believe the bible is logical, clear, and real... You obviously don't think the same, and its not my mission to change that. No one here is subordinate to anyone, I believe you've mistaken me defending my faith as an effort to make others believe as I do.. I simply correct inaccurate depictions of bible passages, not to sway others, but to correct some unfounded and exaggerated assumptions. Your always free to correct my error, so the same courtesy should be extended to me. And no, you don't need an excuse not to believe anymore than I need an excuse to believe. 

Environmental or hereditary is the argument at hand.  If Adam was a creature of environment and God designed the environment and is perfect in knowledge, he would have been able to know beforehand what Adam would do.

If it's hereditary, and God designed his genes, he would have been able to know what Adam was going to do.

It's like laying down a piece of your kids favorite candy on the table, telling them not to eat it, and leaving them in the room with it and their other parent who tells them it's ok.  Worse, you knew that the other parent would and didn't warn the kids not to listen to them .

[RevBogovac]

59 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Environmental or hereditary is the argument at hand.  If Adam was a creature of environment and God designed the environment and is perfect in knowledge, he would have been able to know beforehand what Adam would do.

If it's hereditary, and God designed his genes, he would have been able to know what Adam was going to do.

It's like laying down a piece of your kids favorite candy on the table, telling them not to eat it, and leaving them in the room with it and their other parent who tells them it's ok.  Worse, you knew that the other parent would and didn't warn the kids not to listen to them .

 

 

No, you don't understand... He's such a loving parent... [/sarc.]

 

 

[Pete]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

 

Of course, I'd disagree with both of you... There's a variety of logic, something that makes sense can be logical. Faith establishes the principles from which we reason logically. The Bible teaches that God is logical. The Bible says that God does not contradict Himself, and when God declares that something is true, then it is really true. The notion of “faith versus reason” is an example of a false dichotomy. Faith is not antagonistic to reason. On the contrary, biblical faith and reason go well together. The problem lies in the fact that many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with the senses.

It seems to me that faith is believing in something that has no logical basis of existence, you cannot see or sense with your senses or conceive with the mind, and smackes against all known laws of reality.  It cannot be be proven by logic or science. That is not logical in whatever way you hack it Dan.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

It seems to me that faith is believing in something that has no logical basis of existence, you cannot see or sense with your senses or conceive with the mind, and smackes against all known laws of reality.  It cannot be be proven by logic or science. That is not logical in whatever way you hack it Dan.

 

 

 

Is there any idea -- any idea at all -- so silly or stupid -- that can't be taken on faith?