Do They Really Believe That?

[RevBogovac]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

Yet more scientific illiteracy [by any fundamental religious person]

 

I read a quite discerning article on this topic yesterday: Why religion is not going away and science will not destroy it by Peter Harrison (an Australian Laureate Fellow and director of the Institute for Advanced Studies in the Humanities at the University of Queensland). 

[Pete]

A theory is made when it is supported by demonstrable proof and stands until a more accurate theory explains things better.

The bible has no demonstrable proof and is supported by nothing more than the religion itself. Hence, in religion you get circular arguments like the bible is the word of god  because it says it is and the only proof it has is that it says it is.

That is not scientific or to be placed on the same plateau as scientific theories.  The bible is not scientific and contradicts all that science stands on.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I read a quite discerning article on this topic yesterday: Why religion is not going away and science will not destroy it by Peter Harrison (an Australian Laureate Fellow and director of the Institute for Advanced Studies in the Humanities at the University of Queensland). 

 

 

I read it.  It's an interesting, thoughtful piece.  Thank you.  I'm going to have to think about this.

 

   

 

 

[RevBogovac]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

A theory is made when it is supported by demonstrable proof and stands until a more accurate theory explains things better.

The bible has no demonstrable proof and is supported by nothing more than the religion itself. Hence, in religion you get circular arguments like the bible is the word of god  because it says it is and the only proof it has is that it says it is.

That is not scientific or to be placed on the same plateau as scientific theories.  The bible is not scientific and contradicts all that science stands on.

 

I saw a nice conversation where Ricky Gervais explained to Stephen Colbert the difference between religion and science very succinctly:

 

 

Now, that's not an opinion... it's a fact.

[Pete]

22 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I saw a nice conversation where Ricky Gervais explained to Stephen Colbert the difference between religion and science very succinctly:

 

 

Now, that's not an opinion... it's a fact.

I like that.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

I like that.

 

 

Yes.  That was well said.     

 

 

[mark 45]

On 1/25/2020 at 10:54 PM, Dan56 said:

 

You are misinformed, the same Satan that showed-up in Job was the same Satan that tempted Christ in the wilderness.

 

I know most here have no faith, but here's a true story about a proven Test of Faith by a Pennsylvania woman, who believed God would protect her....and He did.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/20/us/car-crash-god-pennsylvania/index.html 

I'm sure your non-believing attitudes will be severely shaken when you get some real modern day evidence that God is real and performed a miracle by protecting His own!!

 

just out of curiosity i read your post.all it proves is that she was an idiot,while hurting others,she didn't get injured.having worked the streets for 23 years as an emt,i saw this type of thing happen way to many times.

 

does it prove that your god exists,and allows stupidity to continue?quite frankly i agree with frank zappa:there are only two things in the universe that are inexhaustible;hydrogen and human stupidity,and i'm not sure about hydrogen.

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, mark 45 said:

just out of curiosity i read your post.all it proves is that she was an idiot,while hurting others,she didn't get injured.having worked the streets for 23 years as an emt,i saw this type of thing happen way to many times.

 

does it prove that your god exists,and allows stupidity to continue?quite frankly i agree with frank zappa:there are only two things in the universe that are inexhaustible;hydrogen and human stupidity,and i'm not sure about hydrogen.

 

Yes, I agree with you... I posted that looney story about that crazy woman driving into oncoming traffic as a ridiculous example of a religious nut trying to prove that faith works, but it was sarcasm of course. I agree with Frank Zappa, the Pennsylvania woman is a perfect example of human stupidity. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

51 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I agree with you... I posted that looney story about that crazy woman driving into oncoming traffic as a ridiculous example of a religious nut trying to prove that faith works, but it was sarcasm of course. I agree with Frank Zappa, the Pennsylvania woman is a perfect example of human stupidity. 

 

 

 

That's a problem.  We can't tell the difference between faith and stupidity.  

 

You were being sarcastic?  I couldn't tell.  I thought you were making a point.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

That's a problem.  We can't tell the difference between faith and stupidity. 

 

 

Stupid is as stupid does... Driving your car into oncoming traffic is just plain stupid, while believing and trusting in a Supreme Being is faith. The Christian God did not advise anyone to jump off a cliff as a test of faith.

Some people are just nuts. "Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy 6:16) and "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God." (Matthew 4:7)

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Stupid is as stupid does... Driving your car into oncoming traffic is just plain stupid, while believing and trusting in a Supreme Being is faith. The Christian God did not advise anyone to jump off a cliff as a test of faith.

Some people are just nuts. "Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy 6:16) and "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God." (Matthew 4:7)

 

Alright, Dan.  I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes.

 

Evidently, this woman had "faith as a grain of mustard seed."  Jesus said, "nothing shall be impossible to you."  It looks to me, like she took Jesus at his word.

 

She drove into the opposing lane of traffic.  A mere nothing, compared to casting a mountain into the sea -- by faith.

 

Why would she doubt the word of her Lord and Savior?  You don't like nuance.  All in or all out.  Either we take Jesus at his word -- or we don't.  I don't.  You claim that you do.  Well?

 

I keep telling you.  I read the Book.   I can't quote chapter and verse from memory, the way I used to, but I know what's in there.

 

 

Matthew 17:20

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

Matthew 21:21

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Edited January 28, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Alright, Dan.  I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes.

 

Evidently, this woman had "faith as a grain of mustard seed."  Jesus said, "nothing shall be impossible to you."  It looks to me, like she took Jesus at his word.

 

She drove into the opposing lane of traffic.  A mere nothing, compared to casting a mountain into the sea -- by faith.

 

Why would she doubt the word of her Lord and Savior?  You don't like nuance.  All in or all out.  Either we take Jesus at his word -- or we don't.  I don't.  You claim that you do.  Well?

 

I keep telling you.  I read the Book.   I can't quote chapter and verse from memory, the way I used to, but I know what's in there.

 

 

Matthew 17:20

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

Matthew 21:21

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

If the woman had real faith, she would not of had to drive into oncoming traffic to prove it. That's trying to show God how much faith you have by tempting Him to save you... And you don't tempt God.

 

A mustard seed obviously doesn't have faith, its just a reference to a small amount of faith.. And in the bible, mountains are symbolic of nations. So all Jesus was saying to his disciples was that if they had a small amount of faith, they could move a nation.. And spiritually speaking, they did move nations to Christ .

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

If the woman had real faith, she would not of had to drive into oncoming traffic to prove it. That's trying to show God how much faith you have by tempting Him to save you... And you don't tempt God.

 

A mustard seed obviously doesn't have faith, its just a reference to a small amount of faith.. And in the bible, mountains are symbolic of nations. So all Jesus was saying to his disciples was that if they had a small amount of faith, they could move a nation.. And spiritually speaking, they did move nations to Christ .

 

 

 

You introduced this story as a demonstration of faith -- and proof of God's protection of the faithful.  Your double standard is showing.

 

If she had real faith?  Who determines that?  You?  God?  I know you like to speak for God.  This is clearly over the line.

 

 

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

17 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Stupid is as stupid does... [...] The Christian God did not advise anyone to jump off a cliff as a test of faith. [...]

 

No, he didn't... he just asked Abraham to kill his child "as a test of faith" (Genesis 22:1-13)... 🤔

Edited January 29, 2020 by RevBogovac

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You introduced this story as a demonstration of faith -- and proof of God's protection of the faithful.  Your double standard is showing.

If she had real faith?  Who determines that?  You?  God?  I know you like to speak for God.  This is clearly over the line.

 

 

I jokingly introduced the crazy woman's suicidal actions as a ridiculous demonstration of faith. Its not much different than crazed Muslims crashing planes for 7 virgins. The Christian God does not protect Christians, 'It rains on the just and unjust alike'. The Penn woman was trying to prove God by invoking His protection, that's not trust, its tempting God. What's over the line is that 2 cars were wrecked and people got hurt, so I don't believe God views that as real faith. 

 

1 minute ago, RevBogovac said:

 

No, he didn't... he just asked Abraham to kill his child "as a test of faith" (Genesis 22:1-13)... 🤔

 

Good point... The difference is that God requested the sacrifice of Issac as a test of faith, while the woman tempted God by an unsolicited act of suicide. I'm surprised that Atheist often have more profound questions than believers

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I jokingly introduced the crazy woman's suicidal actions as a ridiculous demonstration of faith. Its not much different than crazed Muslims crashing planes for 7 virgins. The Christian God does not protect Christians, 'It rains on the just and unjust alike'. The Penn woman was trying to prove God by invoking His protection, that's not trust, its tempting God. What's over the line is that 2 cars were wrecked and people got hurt, so I don't believe God views that as real faith. 

 

 

Good point... The difference is that God requested the sacrifice of Issac as a test of faith, while the woman tempted God by an unsolicited act of suicide. I'm surprised that Atheist often have more profound questions than believers

 

That's the problem, isn't it?  It boils down to belief and faith.  Your belief and your faith.

 

Belief and Faith are miserable ways to make a decision -- or live a life.

 

You think this woman was crazy?  Would you care to guess what I think?  You are both Faith based.  Neither one of you has any use for objective reality.  That is what defines crazy.

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I jokingly introduced the crazy woman's suicidal actions as a ridiculous demonstration of faith. Its not much different than crazed Muslims crashing planes for 7 virgins. The Christian God does not protect Christians, 'It rains on the just and unjust alike'. The Penn woman was trying to prove God by invoking His protection, that's not trust, its tempting God. What's over the line is that 2 cars were wrecked and people got hurt, so I don't believe God views that as real faith. 

 

 

Good point... The difference is that God requested the sacrifice of Issac as a test of faith, while the woman tempted God by an unsolicited act of suicide. I'm surprised that Atheist often have more profound questions than believers

 

 

Is that what you believe?  It must follow, that God does not answer prayer.  That means that praying must be useless and futile.

 

Is that what you meant to say?

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I jokingly introduced the crazy woman's suicidal actions as a ridiculous demonstration of faith. Its not much different than crazed Muslims crashing planes for 7 virgins. The Christian God does not protect Christians, 'It rains on the just and unjust alike'. The Penn woman was trying to prove God by invoking His protection, that's not trust, its tempting God. What's over the line is that 2 cars were wrecked and people got hurt, so I don't believe God views that as real faith. 

 

 

Good point... The difference is that God requested the sacrifice of Issac as a test of faith, while the woman tempted God by an unsolicited act of suicide. I'm surprised that Atheist often have more profound questions than believers

 

 

Why does God -- the All Knowing -- need to test someone's faith?  

 

 

 

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Belief and Faith are miserable ways to make a decision -- or live a life.

 

You think this woman was crazy?  Would you care to guess what I think?  You are both Faith based.  Neither one of you has any use for objective reality.  That is what defines crazy.

 

 

Sometimes belief and faith are all you have to make decisions, science doesn't answer everything, especially anything of a nonphysical nature, like your consciousness. Granted, no answers to some basic unanswered questions in life call for a degree of speculation, or faith if you will. 

 

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Is that what you believe?  It must follow, that God does not answer prayer.  That means that praying must be useless and futile.

 

Is that what you meant to say?

 

Prayer and protection are 2 different issues.. I believe God answers prayers when a request of a spiritual nature are rendered (in Jesus name & purpose). But if a drunk driver is headed down the street, he is as likely to run into a believer as well as an unbeliever. God may only intervene if He has a yet unfulfilled special purpose for a person. Life is a roll of the dice for everyone.  

 

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Why does God -- the All Knowing -- need to test someone's faith? 

 

 

When it comes to affairs of the heart, I don't believe God is omniscient. And as I've said in the past, omnipotence can alter omniscience. God is both.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

13 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Sometimes belief and faith are all you have to make decisions, science doesn't answer everything, especially anything of a nonphysical nature, like your consciousness. Granted, no answers to some basic unanswered questions in life call for a degree of speculation, or faith if you will. 

 

 

Prayer and protection are 2 different issues.. I believe God answers prayers when a request of a spiritual nature are rendered (in Jesus name & purpose). But if a drunk driver is headed down the street, he is as likely to run into a believer as well as an unbeliever. God may only intervene if He has a yet unfulfilled special purpose for a person. Life is a roll of the dice for everyone.  

 

 

When it comes to affairs of the heart, I don't believe God is omniscient. And as I've said in the past, omnipotence can alter omniscience. God is both.

 

Your bald assertions are getting even more outlandish and weird.  I have said this in the past.  It's worth repeating.  You're obviously making this crap up as you go.