Evidence

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

"its up to every individual to discern the truth from a lie."

 

 

 

Dan, I have.  That is why I'm not a Christian.     

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

I am not against anyone having a personal faith in something, but a belief is not evidence.. Dan you talk about the need for hope but that hope is .held on the same basis of it being  belief. It could be said a comforting delusion in giving the person a hope or one of countless religions each peddling their hope , but it all sadly lacks imperical or demonstratable evidence or apparent facts that are indisputable.and mutually agreed. One of the difficulties religious people have is they want to talk about their holy book or creed or dogma and for others to take it as fact as they have themselves. This does not work unless the other person agrees with this in the first place. The other mistake is they quote from these books and creeds as if people have not heard them before. Most agnostics.and atheists have heard them before and found them shallow and unfounded. Your not showing them facts or evidence. You're showing them a belief and therefore its a thing for the believer but not the agnostic or atheist who wants evidence.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I am not against anyone having a personal faith in something, but a belief is not evidence.. Dan you talk about the need for hope but that hope is .held on the same basis of it being  belief. It could be said a comforting delusion in giving the person a hope or one of countless religions each peddling their hope , but it all sadly lacks imperical or demonstratable evidence or apparent facts that are indisputable.and mutually agreed. One of the difficulties religious people have is they want to talk about their holy book or creed or dogma and for others to take it as fact as they have themselves. This does not work unless the other person agrees with this in the first place. The other mistake is they quote from these books and creeds as if people have not heard them before. Most agnostics.and atheists have heard them before and found them shallow and unfounded. Your not showing them facts or evidence. You're showing them a belief and therefore its a thing for the believer but not the agnostic or atheist who wants evidence.

 

 

It becomes more clear, if we are talking about money instead of God.  

 

You have to Believe.  Buy this stock and your money will double.

 

Hang on to Hope.  With the next roll of the dice, you will win.

 

No.  Belief changes nothing.  Hope changes nothing.  A false proposition will still fail.

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

For me its not blind faith, the bible is reasonable evidence, and for me it is self-evident. But some folks don't it see what I see and aren't open to believing. I don't read bald assertions, but see specific prophesies that demonstrate an obvious truth. I have no difficulty rejecting other religions either, but Christ was unique, no man could have or ever has done what he did, and it was all foretold. So I hold to what rings true for me, but of course, its up to every individual to discern the truth from a lie.

 

 

I have simply rejected one more religion, than you have.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

13 hours ago, Pete said:

I am not against anyone having a personal faith in something, but a belief is not evidence.. Dan you talk about the need for hope but that hope is .held on the same basis of it being  belief. It could be said a comforting delusion in giving the person a hope or one of countless religions each peddling their hope , but it all sadly lacks imperical or demonstratable evidence or apparent facts that are indisputable.and mutually agreed. One of the difficulties religious people have is they want to talk about their holy book or creed or dogma and for others to take it as fact as they have themselves. This does not work unless the other person agrees with this in the first place. The other mistake is they quote from these books and creeds as if people have not heard them before. Most agnostics.and atheists have heard them before and found them shallow and unfounded. Your not showing them facts or evidence. You're showing them a belief and therefore its a thing for the believer but not the agnostic or atheist who wants evidence.

 

What you say is true, there are no indisputable facts to qualify the legitimacy of any belief. While I personally accept by faith that the Word was literally made known & manifested among us, others believe it was a hoax, and I suspect that even if they personally witnessed Christ and the miracles, they still wouldn't have any faith.

 

"God requires faith because it allows humans the ability to choose or reject Him. Without the ability to make choices, humanity would cease to be human as we know it. Because people can choose to have faith or not to have faith, there is a way for God to know those who have believed in Him and those who have not. Faith in God is not "blind faith" as some argue. Instead, it is a choice based on the available information."

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You have to Believe.  Buy this stock and your money will double.

No.  Belief changes nothing.  Hope changes nothing.  A false proposition will still fail.

 

Your concluding the proposition is false. Suppose it were true? In which case hope, belief, & faith changes everything.. e.g; I bought Apple (AAPL) stock 20 years ago at $11.88 per share because I "believed" my money would double, today the stock is around $280. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Dan56

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

What you say is true, there are no indisputable facts to qualify the legitimacy of any belief. While I personally accept by faith that the Word was literally made known & manifested among us, others believe it was a hoax, and I suspect that even if they personally witnessed Christ and the miracles, they still wouldn't have any faith.

 

"God requires faith because it allows humans the ability to choose or reject Him. Without the ability to make choices, humanity would cease to be human as we know it. Because people can choose to have faith or not to have faith, there is a way for God to know those who have believed in Him and those who have not. Faith in God is not "blind faith" as some argue. Instead, it is a choice based on the available information."

 

Your concluding the proposition is false. Suppose it were true? In which case hope, belief, & faith changes everything.. e.g; I bought Apple (AAPL) stock 20 years ago at $11.88 per share because I "believed" my money would double, today the stock is around $280. 

 

 

Congratulations.  I was thinking more about the people, who join Gamblers Anonymous -- after watching their lives go down the tubes.  Or my friend, who lost his inheritance, in the stock market. Or the people who get sucked into MLM-s like Amway -- and lose everything.  A warm glow of faith is not enough.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Congratulations.  I was thinking more about the people, who join Gamblers Anonymous -- after watching their lives go down the tubes.  Or my friend, who lost his inheritance, in the stock market. Or the people who get sucked into MLM-s like Amway -- and lose everything.  A warm glow of faith is not enough.

 

 

True, you can lose your a$$ when investing, especially when your rolling dice... But there's no down side to Christ... Even if your wrong, you have hope in the interim.

I'm going to say something that may be construed as being extremely controversial here; Merry Christmas  🎄

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

True, you can lose your a$$ when investing, especially when your rolling dice... But there's no down side to Christ... Even if your wrong, you have hope in the interim.

I'm going to say something that may be construed as being extremely controversial here; Merry Christmas  🎄

 

 

And a joyous Merry Christmas to you.     

 

 

[RevBogovac]

21 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] But there's no down side to Christ... Even if your wrong, you have hope in the interim. [...]

 

Yes, there is (a down side); you might be wrong, actually one of the other religions might be right. Or none of them...

[Pete]

33 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Yes, there is (a down side); you might be wrong, actually one of the other religions might be right. Or none of them...

I agree. Most religions make assertions and I doubt anyone is going to join them all just on the off chance one of them maybe right. No religion on the face of it is anymore believable than another but that is just the point why would any god leave so much to chance that people may get the right one. I am convinced that all religions are man made and beyond their belief they lay as empty shells with the absence of realistic substance we can grasp with reality. 

[Dan56]

1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Yes, there is (a down side); you might be wrong, actually one of the other religions might be right. Or none of them...

 

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I agree. Most religions make assertions and I doubt anyone is going to join them all just on the off chance one of them maybe right. No religion on the face of it is anymore believable than another but that is just the point why would any god leave so much to chance that people may get the right one. I am convinced that all religions are man made and beyond their belief they lay as empty shells with the absence of realistic substance we can grasp with reality. 

 

I tend to agree, religion never saved anyone and they can all be wrong.. But for me, Christ wasn't a religion, my faith is in him and him alone. I don't place much confidence in any denomination or the church down on the corner. Everyone struggles with one question, 'What is the truth?' I've chosen Christ and have experience no downside to that decision. The world is full of lies, misinformation, deceit, confusion, and information overload, so to have one steadfast truth to cling to is an undescribable comfort and assurance that surpasses all else. But you have to accept it to know it.  

[Pete]

I know you believe that and it is a comfort for you, but without conclusive evidence it is no comfort to me. You might as well tell me aliens will come and rescue us. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

This is starting to go off the rails.  Alright then.  We have Dan telling Atheists, that there is no downside to his faith.  That the upside is hope.  Let us look at these two propositions.

 

Is there a downside?  Several.

• It means NOT living an authentic life.  Why would I live a life, predicated on someone else's beliefs?
• It's time consuming.  Life is short.  Too short to spend all that time in Bible study; worship services; prayer; etc.
• It means being a coward.  If existence in Heaven is the carrot --- then the Lake of Fire is the stick.  I refuse to be afraid.  I refuse to be intimidated.  No matter how we play with words, this is a terrorist threat.  At that, rather a childish threat.

Is there an upside?

• Hope.  This is a false binary.  It is not Christian hope for eternity, or nothing.  The more so when the Christian hope is based on so little.  I will say this yet again.  Evidence that requires faith is not evidence.
• Improved life in the here and now.  The peace which passes understanding.  That is the great Christian lie.  That we need only turn our lives over to God -- Christ -- what ever -- and our broken lives will be fixed, as the Christ comes to live within us.  To which I call bovine manure.

 

I will now restate my basic understanding.  My Apatheism:

• We have no objective, verifiable facts or information about God.  Nothing at all.
• There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be true.
• There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be false.
• It doesn't matter whether or not God actually exists.  A god which can not be detected or discerned is irrelevant and meaningless, even if it does exist.

Finally, I am still ready to reconsider everything, if presented with meaningful evidence.  People have been trying for a long time.  I have low expectation that this will change.

 

The all knowing God -- if it exists -- would know exactly what it would take to change my mind.  In truth, I don't know what that is.  I do know that it has not yet happened.

 

In closing, my favorite definition of an Atheist.  Someone who has one less God, than a Monotheist.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

The other thing is you not only supersede logic but there is a need to comply with the views of the church. The more bible based the worst it becomes as I found out when defending gay people.  I was sent to Coventry and treated like a leper. If anyone talked to me one of the. Elders would try to take them away from me. The church is not run by love. It is run by obedience to a dogma. I found no comfort there. At least, I have ownership to my own mind now. I find that comforting. 

[Dan56]

16 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This is starting to go off the rails.  Alright then.  We have Dan telling Atheists, that there is no downside to his faith.  That the upside is hope.  Let us look at these two propositions.

 

Is there a downside?  Several.

• It means NOT living an authentic life.  Why would I live a life, predicated on someone else's beliefs? Living what you believe to be true is as authentic as it gets.
• It's time consuming.  Life is short.  Too short to spend all that time in Bible study; worship services; prayer; etc. If you cherish something, you don't consider it a waste of time.
• It means being a coward.  If existence in Heaven is the carrot --- then the Lake of Fire is the stick.  I refuse to be afraid.  I refuse to be intimidated.  No matter how we play with words, this is a terrorist threat.  At that, rather a childish threat. There's no stick (Lake of Fire) to believers, so no downside. Believers believe Christ was right, so following him is doing the right thing, and there's nothing cowardly about doing that which is right.

Is there an upside?

• Hope.  This is a false binary.  It is not Christian hope for eternity, or nothing.  The more so when the Christian hope is based on so little.  I will say this yet again.  Evidence that requires faith is not evidence. Hope is not based on nothing, some folks just don't need all the evidence that you demand, they are content to believe with the information that's available.
• Improved life in the here and now.  The peace which passes understanding.  That is the great Christian lie.  That we need only turn our lives over to God -- Christ -- what ever -- and our broken lives will be fixed, as the Christ comes to live within us.  To which I call bovine manure. Don't knock what you've never tried. Perhaps you have no peace because you believe in nothing divine and stopped caring about it. You don't know it, but that's the broken part of you that needs fixing, otherwise your just an empty vessel wandering aimlessly.

 

I will now restate my basic understanding.  My Apatheism:

• We have no objective, verifiable facts or information about God.  Nothing at all? There's information, you've just decided not to believe it.
• There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be true. Christ demonstrated it, but you've chosen to discard that too. 
• There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be false. While not proof, the absence of any falsehood lends credibility to a God.  
• It doesn't matter whether or not God actually exists.  A god which can not be detected or discerned is irrelevant and meaningless, even if it does exist. God was demonstrated through Christ, He is discerned through Christ, His relevance and meaningfulness are only apparent when you believe in Christ.

Finally, I am still ready to reconsider everything, if presented with meaningful evidence.  People have been trying for a long time.  I have low expectation that this will change. It won't change, because the type of verifiable evidence that you demand is not available (yet). You prove your desire for God before He proves Himself to you, and that requires faith, which is something you obviously struggle with.

 

The all knowing God -- if it exists -- would know exactly what it would take to change my mind.  In truth, I don't know what that is.  I do know that it has not yet happened. God doesn't change minds, He revealed himself through Christ and then the decision is up to you. Otherwise, its like forcing you to marry a woman you hate, and then waiting for her to change your mind.

 

In closing, my favorite definition of an Atheist.  Someone who has one less God, than a Monotheist. A Christian = Someone who has one more God than an Atheist, and the hope of something beyond the here & now.

 

 

12 hours ago, Pete said:

The other thing is you not only supersede logic but there is a need to comply with the views of the church. The more bible based the worst it becomes as I found out when defending gay people.  I was sent to Coventry and treated like a leper. If anyone talked to me one of the. Elders would try to take them away from me. The church is not run by love. It is run by obedience to a dogma. I found no comfort there. At least, I have ownership to my own mind now. I find that comforting. 

 

Because a church doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean there's an absence of love. That's what Jesus was referring to when he said "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out..... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (Matthew 5:30). You were propagating falsehoods among the congregation, so the Elders couldn't very well allow you to infect the whole flock. Considering that your objection was with a church that was obedient to the gospel, its no wonder that you found no comfort there.. Glad you found comfort in your own mind though.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Dan56

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

20 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

I tend to agree, religion never saved anyone and they can all be wrong.. But for me, Christ wasn't a religion, my faith is in him and him alone. I don't place much confidence in any denomination or the church down on the corner. Everyone struggles with one question, 'What is the truth?' I've chosen Christ and have experience no downside to that decision. The world is full of lies, misinformation, deceit, confusion, and information overload, so to have one steadfast truth to cling to is an undescribable comfort and assurance that surpasses all else. But you have to accept it to know it.  

 

 

This is a common conceit, that keeps popping up among Christians.  Christianity is not a religion.  Christianity is a special relationship with God.  Everybody else has religion.

 

Which other religions are not religions?  Islam.

 

Ask any devout Muslim.  Islam is not a religion.  Islam is submission to the will of Allah.  Everybody else only has religion.

 

Is that it?  No.  Judaism is not a religion.

 

Ask any Orthodox Jew.  Judaism is not a religion.  Judaism is the Covenant between God and the Jewish People.  Jewish Law, expressed in Talmud, is the expression of God's will.  Everybody else has religion.

 

Buddhism is not a religion.  Buddhism is a practice which is suitable for everyone.  Whether or not they have religion.

 

Hinduism is not a religion.  Hinduism is a Science of Spirituality.  Yoga means yoke.  It is the process by which we yoke our selves to God.  Need I say it?  Everybody else has religion.

 

Which brings us back to you, Dan.  You don't have religion.  You have a relationship with Christ.  How very special.     

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

 

 

This is starting to go off the rails.  Alright then.  We have Dan telling Atheists, that there is no downside to his faith.  That the upside is hope.  Let us look at these two propositions.

 

Is there a downside?  Several.

• It means NOT living an authentic life.  Why would I live a life, predicated on someone else's beliefs? Living what you believe to be true is as authentic as it gets.
• It's time consuming.  Life is short.  Too short to spend all that time in Bible study; worship services; prayer; etc. If you cherish something, you don't consider it a waste of time.
• It means being a coward.  If existence in Heaven is the carrot --- then the Lake of Fire is the stick.  I refuse to be afraid.  I refuse to be intimidated.  No matter how we play with words, this is a terrorist threat.  At that, rather a childish threat. There's no stick (Lake of Fire) to believers, so no downside. Believers believe Christ was right, so following him is doing the right thing, and there's nothing cowardly about doing that which is right.

Is there an upside?

• Hope.  This is a false binary.  It is not Christian hope for eternity, or nothing.  The more so when the Christian hope is based on so little.  I will say this yet again.  Evidence that requires faith is not evidence. Hope is not based on nothing, some folks just don't need all the evidence that you demand, they are content to believe with the information that's available.
• Improved life in the here and now.  The peace which passes understanding.  That is the great Christian lie.  That we need only turn our lives over to God -- Christ -- what ever -- and our broken lives will be fixed, as the Christ comes to live within us.  To which I call bovine manure. Don't knock what you've never tried. Perhaps you have no peace because you believe in nothing divine and stopped caring about it. You don't know it, but that's the broken part of you that needs fixing, otherwise your just an empty vessel wandering aimlessly.

 

I will now restate my basic understanding.  My Apatheism:

• We have no objective, verifiable facts or information about God.  Nothing at all? There's information, you've just decided not to believe it.
• There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be true. Christ demonstrated it, but you've chosen to discard that too. 
• There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be false. While not proof, the absence of any falsehood lends credibility to a God.  
• It doesn't matter whether or not God actually exists.  A god which can not be detected or discerned is irrelevant and meaningless, even if it does exist. God was demonstrated through Christ, He is discerned through Christ, His relevance and meaningfulness are only apparent when you believe in Christ.

Finally, I am still ready to reconsider everything, if presented with meaningful evidence.  People have been trying for a long time.  I have low expectation that this will change. It won't change, because the type of verifiable evidence that you demand is not available (yet). You prove your desire for God before He proves Himself to you, and that requires faith, which is something you obviously struggle with.

 

The all knowing God -- if it exists -- would know exactly what it would take to change my mind.  In truth, I don't know what that is.  I do know that it has not yet happened. God doesn't change minds, He revealed himself through Christ and then the decision is up to you. Otherwise, its like forcing you to marry a woman you hate, and then waiting for her to change your mind.

 

In closing, my favorite definition of an Atheist.  Someone who has one less God, than a Monotheist. A Christian = Someone who has one more God than an Atheist, and the hope of something beyond the here & now.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow.  Just wow.  Dan, you have demonstrated, yet again, that you can not see anybody's perspective but your own.     

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Wow.  Just wow.  Dan, you have demonstrated, yet again, that you can not see anybody's perspective but your own.

 

 

 

I see your prospective on things, I just don't have much to say about it. You believe in nothing divine because you trust nothing that can't be factually proven and verified. Everyone wants solid evidence in order to formulate a logical conclusion, but such evidence eliminates the necessity of belief. Because I state my perspective doesn't mean I don't understand what others think, and I understand the desire to 'know' that something is true rather than trusting, hoping, wanting, or guessing that its true. Faith isn't in everyone's playbook, but its what's required to accept the supernatural. I do realize that my position is a dead end street to those who require definitive proof. So while God makes sense to me, I also get the "prove it" attitude. But God will never be authenticated or revealed via physical observation, its all about having faith in something beyond yourself.    

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

26 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I see your prospective on things, I just don't have much to say about it. You believe in nothing divine because you trust nothing that can't be factually proven and verified. Everyone wants solid evidence in order to formulate a logical conclusion, but such evidence eliminates the necessity of belief. Because I state my perspective doesn't mean I don't understand what others think, and I understand the desire to 'know' that something is true rather than trusting, hoping, wanting, or guessing that its true. Faith isn't in everyone's playbook, but its what's required to accept the supernatural. I do realize that my position is a dead end street to those who require definitive proof. So while God makes sense to me, I also get the "prove it" attitude. But God will never be authenticated or revealed via physical observation, its all about having faith in something beyond yourself.    

 

I was responding to your insistence, that there is no downside to faith.  I listed three downsides.  You responded.  Alright.  Your responses.

 

Is there a downside?  Several.

• It means NOT living an authentic life.  Why would I live a life, predicated on someone else's beliefs? Living what you believe to be true is as authentic as it gets.
• It's time consuming.  Life is short.  Too short to spend all that time in Bible study; worship services; prayer; etc. If you cherish something, you don't consider it a waste of time.
• It means being a coward.  If existence in Heaven is the carrot --- then the Lake of Fire is the stick.  I refuse to be afraid.  I refuse to be intimidated.  No matter how we play with words, this is a terrorist threat.  At that, rather a childish threat. There's no stick (Lake of Fire) to believers, so no downside. Believers believe Christ was right, so following him is doing the right thing, and there's nothing cowardly about doing that which is right.

1.   Living what you believe to be true is as authentic as it gets.

 

I am living my truth.  You are insisting that I live your truth.  No.  You don't understand my perspective.

 

2.  If you cherish something, you don't consider it a waste of time.

 

I am still responding to your insistence, that there is no downside -- for me -- to take up your faith.  The downside is that I take my short life -- and waste much of it -- living your life style.  That is one big honking downside.  No.  You don't understand my perspective.

 

3.  Believers believe Christ was right, so following him is doing the right thing, and there's nothing cowardly about doing that which is right.

 

I am still responding to your insistence, that there is no downside -- for me -- to take up your faith.  My doing so -- out of concern for the Lake of Fire -- comes close to defining cowardice.  I am not afraid.  I will not allow you to make me fearful.  You have tried.  For this, I cite your telling me, that Christ returning will be "unpleasant" for me.  Again, you don't understand my perspective.  

 

Further, there is your continued insistence that I believe in nothing.  No.  I don't have your beliefs.  That is not believing in nothing.  Your inability to understand even this, is telling.  No.  You don't understand my perspective.  Clearly, you don't understand any point of view -- about anything --which is not yours.

 

 

 

[Key]

55 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I see your prospective on things, I just don't have much to say about it. You believe in nothing divine because you trust nothing that can't be factually proven and verified. Everyone wants solid evidence in order to formulate a logical conclusion, but such evidence eliminates the necessity of belief. Because I state my perspective doesn't mean I don't understand what others think, and I understand the desire to 'know' that something is true rather than trusting, hoping, wanting, or guessing that its true. Faith isn't in everyone's playbook, but its what's required to accept the supernatural. I do realize that my position is a dead end street to those who require definitive proof. So while God makes sense to me, I also get the "prove it" attitude. But God will never be authenticated or revealed via physical observation, its all about having faith in something beyond yourself.    

I kinda disagree there, Dan. I often view your responses as a twist of your own perspective relating to their's but not really embracing their definitions of what they believe. It's always antagonistic towards your beliefs, by your responses.

Also, I kind of beg to differ on another response of yours. You said God doesn't have to prove himself to man, (maybe), but man must prove himself to God. (Not really.)

If God already knows what's in our hearts, as stated in Scripture, then there is no need to prove anything. 

As others have pointed out, there are many details that seem to either contradict or seem to be overly schematic. That may be one of them.