Converts

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

59 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Eternal life is a persuasive means.... God desires your trust (faith), but He doesn't need it.

 

 

I wasn't looking for converts, I was simply correcting some irrational and ridiculous biblical conclusions.. Like cuchulain saying that belief didn't matter.

 

 

True... I only know that if I didn't believe the bible, nothing it says would threaten me. 

 

 

I gave a simplified explanation, but much of the wickedness was do to human contamination. Fallen angels produced nephilim, a biblical race of giants or demigods. Noah's family were the only pure undefiled descendants of Adam. But yes, sin survived of course, we are all born in sin.

 

 

A&E were a test, and they failed.. The flood was a cleansing.. The Abrahamic covenant was a promise. God's plans never fail, people do.. Christ was the future, and that ultimate plan did not fail, because he is perfect in every way. 

 

 

Alright Dan.  One more time.  It is not the Bible's threats that I find repugnant.  It is your threats that irritate me.  Perhaps you don't remember making threats?  Your words were not hard to retrieve.  Perhaps this will jog your memory.

 

 

"The evidence came and left, but don't worry, he said "I'll be back". Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience."

 

If you insist on making threats, the very least you can do, is remember them.  That is not the Bible making a threat.  That's you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It is not the Bible's threats that I find repugnant.

 

" Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience."

 

 That is not the Bible making a threat.

 

No, it was not a direct bible quote, but I was actually sugar-coating it for the sake of those who are easily offended;  "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:41-42). So "unpleasant experience" seemed like a mild and less-threatening description of all that's written about the fate of nonbelievers.. Sometimes my extreme politeness boggles the mind

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

No, it was not a direct bible quote, but I was actually sugar-coating it for the sake of those who are easily offended;  "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:41-42). So "unpleasant experience" seemed like a mild and less-threatening description of all that's written about the fate of nonbelievers.. Sometimes my extreme politeness boggles the mind

 

 

 

I don't know how to respond to that.  Words fail.

 

 

 

[Pete]

19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

I don't know how to respond to that.  Words fail.

 

 

 

Yeah! Dan, So full of love.  NOT

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yeah! Dan, So full of love.  NOT

 

 

That is very much my point.  It is Dan.  Why am I engaged with this?   

 

I know better.  It doesn't matter.  It's time to let go.

 

I'm still here for friendly conversation.  I'm not leaving.  I'm done with crazy.

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

On 12/5/2019 at 10:29 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

And there we go with the threats again... one would think that a benevolent god would have found more persuasive means... but no.

 

Anyway, if your god really returns and is such an ego-tripper that he needs my affirmation in advance on blind faith well... he isn’t an all good god then whom I would choose to spend the rest of eternity serving. Not even mentioning his “temper” (which is totally arbitrary too, having bears moal he one and leaving the other be). 
 

Have “fun” with him I say! (I’m with cuchulain.)

 

 

On 12/6/2019 at 11:58 AM, Dan56 said:

Eternal life is a persuasive means.... God desires your trust (faith), but He doesn't need it. [...]

 

Yes, that is obvious. The question was: why?!? Why would you even want to spend eternity with such a bully...?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Yes, that is obvious. The question was: why?!? Why would you even want to spend eternity with such a bully...?

 

Why indeed?  The supreme ego-maniac.  Petty, mean, spiteful, jealous, vengeful, sadistic -- and He knows your every thought before you do.  All He wants is your devoted love, praise and worship.  It had best be sincere devotion.  Or else.  He will know if you're faking.  All of eternity.  Praise, love and worship.  On and on and on.......

 

It doesn't sound like Heaven to me.  It sounds like the other place.          

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

On 12/9/2019 at 2:01 AM, RevBogovac said:

Yes, that is obvious. The question was: why?!? Why would you even want to spend eternity with such a bully...?

 

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Hardly the definition of a bully?

 

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Petty, mean, spiteful, jealous, vengeful, sadistic -- and He knows your every thought before you do.

 

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Nothing sadistic about that..

And He doesn't know your thoughts before you have them, remember what He said to Abraham, "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." (Genesis 22:12).

Edited December 10, 2019 by Dan56

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

1.  "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Hardly the definition of a bully?

 

 

2.  "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Nothing sadistic about that..

 

3.  And He doesn't know your thoughts before you have them, remember what He said to Abraham, "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." (Genesis 22:12).

 

1.  Did Jesus stay dead?  Three days in the tomb, then on to glory.  Big deal.  The world's worst weekend.

In any event, I was speaking of God.  In your terms, the Father.  Not Jesus.

 

2.  Do you know anything about real shepherds?  They kill their sheep, eat their flesh and wear their skins.  After years of "fleecing".

 

3.  Are you placing limits on God's all knowingness?  First, that's blasphemy.  Second, it looks like you are making this up as you go.  God knows everything.  Everything means everything.  That is the most basic of theology.  Beyond that, congratulations.  You have found one of the many contradictions in Scripture.

 

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Hardly the definition of a bully?

 

 

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep" (John 10:11). Nothing sadistic about that..

And He doesn't know your thoughts before you have them, remember what He said to Abraham, "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." (Genesis 22:12).

 

Words are cheap; his (according to your bible, documented) actions speak for themselves (trapping Eve so all living things will die, bear-moaling, flooding, letting his owns son be crucified et cetera)... sounds like you'll be threading water for the rest of eternity... have fun!

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Words are cheap; his (according to your bible, documented) actions speak for themselves (trapping Eve so all living things will die, bear-moaling, flooding, letting his owns son be crucified et cetera)... sounds like you'll be threading water for the rest of eternity... have fun!

 

 

 

Yes.     

 

 

 

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

1.  Did Jesus stay dead?  Three days in the tomb, then on to glory.  Big deal.  The world's worst weekend.

3.  Are you placing limits on God's all knowingness? 

 

Yes , it was a big deal, it demonstrated life after death. What preceded it was horrible, but it demonstrated the love of God, and not a mean, vengeful, or sadistic bully. You can't spin it any other way. 

God is omniscient, but we make independent decisions and our choices can be altered by circumstance. God can change what He knows what may have otherwise happened, because He is also omnipotent.

 

22 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Words are cheap; his (according to your bible, documented) actions speak for themselves (trapping Eve so all living things will die, bear-moaling, flooding, letting his owns son be crucified et cetera)... sounds like you'll be threading water for the rest of eternity... have fun!

 

 

Eve was given the freedom of choice, the bear mauling was a tough lesson taught for mocking God, the flood eliminated wickedness/evil, and the crucifixion established salvation. We obviously perceive things differently, all the actions you deem as bad were actions and corrections taken to necessitate a longer term good.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

37 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes , it was a big deal, it demonstrated life after death. What preceded it was horrible, but it demonstrated the love of God, and not a mean, vengeful, or sadistic bully. You can't spin it any other way. 

God is omniscient, but we make independent decisions and our choices can be altered by circumstance. God can change what He knows what may have otherwise happened, because He is also omnipotent.

 

 

Eve was given the freedom of choice, the bear mauling was a tough lesson taught for mocking God, the flood eliminated wickedness/evil, and the crucifixion established salvation. We obviously perceive things differently, all the actions you deem as bad were actions and corrections taken to necessitate a longer term good.

 

 

 

 

 

[Key]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes , it was a big deal, it demonstrated life after death. What preceded it was horrible, but it demonstrated the love of God, and not a mean, vengeful, or sadistic bully. You can't spin it any other way. 

God is omniscient, but we make independent decisions and our choices can be altered by circumstance. God can change what He knows what may have otherwise happened, because He is also omnipotent.

 

 

Eve was given the freedom of choice, the bear mauling was a tough lesson taught for mocking God, the flood eliminated wickedness/evil, and the crucifixion established salvation. We obviously perceive things differently, all the actions you deem as bad were actions and corrections taken to necessitate a longer term good.

Sorry, but if He is all knowing, what is there to change?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Key said:

Sorry, but if He is all knowing, what is there to change?

 

 

 

I was thinking along similar lines.  God, the all knowing, knows every change it will ever make.  Which means there are no changes.  If God can be surprised, then God isn't all knowing -- and isn't God.

 

It's worse.  God, the all knowing, knows everything that God will ever know, think or do.  That means that God has no free will.  There goes the omnipotence.  Since every change that God makes, is known in advance, God can't change anything.

 

Which brings us to Dan's line.      "God can change what He knows"

Somebody has not thought this through.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

13 hours ago, Key said:

Sorry, but if He is all knowing, what is there to change?

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Which brings us to Dan's line.      "God can change what He knows"

Somebody has not thought this through.

 

It helps the context if you finish my entire sentence (God can change what He knows what may have otherwise happened). The natural course of things of what will occur can be changed by an omnipotent Being. God may know that I'll drive my car off a cliff,  but God can intervene and prevent what would have otherwise happened. God knows the future, but he's capable of making adjustments too. For instance, there are 19 verses in the bible where God changed His mind. Christ is a perfect example, we were all headed to hell, but Jesus intervened.

 

"Whosoever believeth" is a choice, I don't believe God knows who will choose to come to repentance. If He did, then this whole human experience would be an exercise in futility. If God already knew the outcome of every human being, He could skip this trial in the flesh and go straight to judgement. 

[RevBogovac]

On 12/10/2019 at 2:18 PM, RevBogovac said:

 

Words are cheap; his (according to your bible, documented) actions speak for themselves (trapping Eve so all living things will die, bear-moaling, flooding, letting his owns son be crucified et cetera)... sounds like you'll be threading water for the rest of eternity... have fun!

 

21 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] Eve was given the freedom of choice, the bear mauling was a tough lesson taught for mocking God, the flood eliminated wickedness/evil, and the crucifixion established salvation. We obviously perceive things differently, all the actions you deem as bad were actions and corrections taken to necessitate a longer term good.

 

Let's break this down:

 

- Eve was trapped into doing something, but even putting that aside (and not even mentioning the why "we" shouldn't have the knowledge of that tree) the consequence was that all living things were going to die. That - by itself - is the very definition of unjust (punishing innocent beings for something they didn't do).

 

- The bear mauling was - again - the very definition of unjust; it is called arbitrariness when one time an offence is (severely!) punished while other times the same offence goes unpunished (especially if the so called "just" being is allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful).

 

- The flood is actually unjust on both accounts: what did all the other (innocent!) mammals, reptiles and birds do to be punished and why did the fish get off without (arbitrary!) punishment?!?

 

-  I didn't ask any one to kill their own kid for me (neither did the majority of humanity in history); to do so is - again - unjust (Jesus didn't do the offence and also arbitrary as he either did so "willingly" and for the whole of humanity or he was coerced in doing so only for the greater good and praise for his father).

 

But - and also again - have fun threading water for the rest of eternity with that "benevolent" being you call god... 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by RevBogovac

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

It helps the context if you finish my entire sentence (God can change what He knows what may have otherwise happened). The natural course of things of what will occur can be changed by an omnipotent Being. God may know that I'll drive my car off a cliff,  but God can intervene and prevent what would have otherwise happened. God knows the future, but he's capable of making adjustments too. For instance, there are 19 verses in the bible where God changed His mind. Christ is a perfect example, we were all headed to hell, but Jesus intervened.

 

"Whosoever believeth" is a choice, I don't believe God knows who will choose to come to repentance. If He did, then this whole human experience would be an exercise in futility. If God already knew the outcome of every human being, He could skip this trial in the flesh and go straight to judgement. 

 

That works, if you want to give God a pathetic Human mind.  As in -- What did God know and when did God know it?  You really are making this up as you go.  All Knowing means -- All Knowing.  God would know in advance, that God is going to have a change of mind.  That means it's not really a change.  Unless you want to insist that God can be surprised.

 

Yes.  There is Scripture that talks about God having regrets.  Of God having a change of mind.  These are examples of Scripture having contradictions.  Another reason not to take Scripture seriously.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Let's break this down:

 

- Eve was trapped into doing something, but even putting that aside (and not even mentioning the why "we" shouldn't have the knowledge of that tree) the consequence was that all living things were going to die. That - by itself - is the very definition of unjust (punishing innocent beings for something they didn't do).

 

- The bear mauling was - again - the very definition of unjust; it is called arbitrariness when one time an offence is (severely!) punished while other times the same offence goes unpunished (especially if the so called "just" being is allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful).

 

- The flood is actually unjust on both accounts: what did all the other (innocent!) mammals, reptiles and birds do to be punished and why did the fish get off without (arbitrary!) punishment?!?

 

-  I didn't ask any one to kill their own kid for me (neither did the majority of humanity in history); to do so is - again - unjust (Jesus didn't do the offence and also arbitrary as he either did so "willingly" and for the whole of humanity or he was coerced in doing so only for the greater good and praise for his father).

 

But - and also again - have fun threading water for the rest of eternity with that "benevolent" being you call god... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's worse than that.  All the waters of the world did a mix and mingle.  All the fresh water fish died, when exposed to salt water.

 

Ocean fish did no better.  Salinity, water pressure, ph levels, temperature, etc.  all changed.  All ocean life died.

 

What did the trees and grasses of the world do?  Why did the trees have to die?  All land based plant life everywhere drowned.  In salt water.  Say good bye to the oxygen -- carbon dioxide cycle.  The entire planet died.

 

Not that the people in China and India noticed anything unusual.  Written records going back over 10,000 years, record normal events.  There is no mention of a great flood or disastrous rain.  It's almost as though these events didn't happen.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

20 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Let's break this down:

 

- Eve was trapped into doing something, but even putting that aside (and not even mentioning the why "we" shouldn't have the knowledge of that tree) the consequence was that all living things were going to die. That - by itself - is the very definition of unjust (punishing innocent beings for something they didn't do).

 

- The bear mauling was - again - the very definition of unjust; it is called arbitrariness when one time an offence is (severely!) punished while other times the same offence goes unpunished (especially if the so called "just" being is allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful).

 

- The flood is actually unjust on both accounts: what did all the other (innocent!) mammals, reptiles and birds do to be punished and why did the fish get off without (arbitrary!) punishment?!?

 

-  I didn't ask any one to kill their own kid for me (neither did the majority of humanity in history); to do so is - again - unjust (Jesus didn't do the offence and also arbitrary as he either did so "willingly" and for the whole of humanity or he was coerced in doing so only for the greater good and praise for his father).

 

 

Disobedience isn't a trap,  Eve was given a choice, and she chose death.. God gave man dominion over all the earth (Genesis 1:26), so all life suffers and dies in a fallen world.  The only thing 'unjust' is mankind, we wanted the knowledge of evil and God delivered it big time. The mauled young men got off lucky, mocking God has serious repercussions.. Sin=death, Christ willingly paid that price for the remission of our sins. As I said, we perceive things completely different, where you see a cruel and unjust God, I see a compassionate and loving God. 

 

15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

It's worse than that.  All the waters of the world did a mix and mingle.  All the fresh water fish died, when exposed to salt water.

 

Ocean fish did no better.  Salinity, water pressure, ph levels, temperature, etc.  all changed.  All ocean life died.

 

What did the trees and grasses of the world do?  Why did the trees have to die?  All land based plant life everywhere drowned.  In salt water.  Say good bye to the oxygen -- carbon dioxide cycle.  The entire planet died.

 

Not that the people in China and India noticed anything unusual.  Written records going back over 10,000 years, record normal events.  There is no mention of a great flood or disastrous rain.  It's almost as though these events didn't happen.

 

 

It didn't happen like you perceive it did. The bible follows God's own people (the descendants of Adam). All of their land flooded  (the world they occupied). Whereby, fish did not die, neither did all plant life (Genesis 8:11). India, Australia,  Europe, the US, and most of China was not affected by Noah's flood.