RevBogovac Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 14 hours ago, Pastor Dave said: Since most of us o not read or speak Biblical Hebrew we have to work through translations. [...] Nice hoop! So the original writers were inspired by god, but god didn't think the writings were important enough to inspire the translators too...? Hmkay.... Quote Link to comment
RevBogovac Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: None of us are in a position to argue the latest Cosmological physics. A few findings are gaining wide acceptance. The scientific consensus is not going to Steady State. The speed in which the Universe is expanding -- is increasing. I want to be clear on that. The galaxies are not flying through space. The space between the galaxies is expanding. More, the space between the galaxies is expanding at an increased speed. The real Universe is strange enough. Invoking the supernatural is not helpful. Yeah, but there are basically two views on that expansion rate: exponential and s-curve; the former is used by the present day majority to "prove" their ("short"-term) point of view, the latter is supported by a small progressive part that simply extrapolates that in nature there is no (proof found of) endless exponential growth but it always comes down to s-curves. More of a "pulsating" universe; expanding a.t.m. but somewhere in the (very distant) future it will be condensing again (and so forth).... And as you often like to point out; a lot of valid ideas started out once by a small minority... Quote Link to comment
RevBogovac Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 14 hours ago, Pastor Dave said: [...] My question here would be "Would those new verses exist within our verse or would they exist outside our verse in a multiverse?" Good question, I'm inclined to "believe" there is only one universe (god?). But at the same time I'm convinced we're (not even close to) knowing this (any time soon).... Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 20 hours ago, Pastor Dave said: Is science moving back to the steady state theory? I hadn't heard that before. We may understand the big bang theory a little differently. My understanding of the Big Bang Theory is that the entire universe (not just our galaxy or each individual galaxy) came into being when some unknown force (which we won't, for any reason, call or attribute, to any God) caused the entire universe to expand from a singularity not a "massive" black hole. "The entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before the "Big Bang" when space and time did not exist. According to the predominant cosmological models that explain our universe, an indescribable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature , that was unbelievably dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy, but space and time itself." You do however bring up a very interesting point. The universe is said to be filled with black holes, each of which has a singularity at it's center. Given that science says that there was no need for a first cause for the big bang it stands to reason that any of those singularities could, without reason, explode into a new verse at any time. My question here would be "Would those new verses exist within our verse or would they exist outside our verse in a multiverse?" I think that you are combining topics in Cosmology, that are separate issues. The basic "problem" is that Astronomers made their calculations -- and the results did not add up. The "problem" is that they calculated all known mass -- and discovered that there is more gravity in the Universe, than they can explain with the available mass. For example, they calculated the spin rate of various galaxies, and did the math, to see if the Black Hole at the center of the Galaxy, had enough mass, to sustain that spin. The numbers did not add up. At the rate of galactic spin, the galaxies should be flying apart. There is more gravity than they can explain. One possible answer is "Dark Matter". A hypothetical something which they can not detect -- which is about 90% of the Universe. Another possible answer, is gravity leaking in, from outside the Universe. Another big question is "Dark Energy". The unknown force which is expanding the space between the galaxies. Yes. Space itself is expanding. It turns out that "Nothing" is really something -- and is unstable. I get a bit lost about the discussion about "virtual particles" which flash in and out of existence. It seems that space itself follows the quantum laws. There are other issues in Cosmology. They will have to wait. This is hurting my head. Quote Link to comment
Pastor Dave Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 The Bible tells us........ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth (Age). Science tells us....... As the Universe expanded, and thus cooled, matter began to coalesce into gas clouds, and then stars and planets. At the time Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago, other smaller planetary bodies were also growing. One of these hit earth late in Earth's growth process, blowing out rocky debris. A fraction of that debris went into orbit around the Earth and aggregated into the moon. . And it has been like that for billions of years. My observation............ The Bible is not specific on how Elohim formed the moon. During those first billions of years stars were lighting up fairly often so many of the stars in our sky ignited long after the planet formed. The moon, stars and sun have been used by mankind to mark time as far back in history as we can trace, in all cultures. Quote Link to comment
Pastor Dave Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 The Bible tells us........ ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth (Age). Science tells us....... Animal life also began in the water. The most primitive fish are invertebrates, of which some still exist today. These would most likely be the first fish to occupy Earth. These primitive and relatively unspecialised organisms would have adapted over a long period of time (millions of years). And they mated and reproduced each in it's time and filled the planet with life. When they breed they produce the same kind of animal (except in those rare instances where some unknown force has caused animals to quickly "evolve" into entirely new species). It was like that for millions of years. My observation............ Here let's look at the first word translated as creature in the Biblical account, according to Strongs concordance,( creature (Genesis 1:20 0020) Hebrew: 8318 sherets sheh'-rets: from 8317; a swarm, i.e. active mass of minute animals:) not only are the first animals said to come from the waters, but they are also said to be minute animals. The great whales spoken of in the Biblical account could also have an alternative translation, according to Strongs concordance, (whales (Genesis 1:21 0021) Hebrew: 8577 tanniyn tan-neen': or tanniym (Ezek. 29:3) \{tan-neem'\}; intensive from the same as 8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent , sea-monster, serpent, whale) this word could have meant any giant creature including most of the dinosaurs that inhabited watery and coastal areas. Now let's look at the second word translated as creature in the Bible (creature (Genesis 1:21 0021) Hebrew: 5315 nephesh neh'-fesh: from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal). This is a different word and conveys a different meaning. This word would cover smaller more common animals such as amphibians and small reptiles. Quote Link to comment
Pastor Dave Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 The Bible tells us........ ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth (Age). Science tells us....... After the dinosaurs and birds evolved, the mammals started to appear; herd animals, small animals and they reproduced and filled the earth with mammal life. Man is the most recent form of life to appear on the planet. Mans intelligence has allowed him to dominate life on this planet. When animals breed they produce the same kind of animal (except in those rare instances where some unknown force has caused animals to quickly "evolve" into entirely new species). It was like that for millions of years. My observation............ Here creature is again nephesh, (creature (Genesis 1:24 0024) Hebrew: 5315 nephesh neh'-fesh: from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of vitality;) this is the same word used to end the last (Age). The term "after his kind" in fact means of their own species. Strong; (kind (Genesis 1:24 0024) Hebrew: 4327 miyn meen: from an unused root meaning to portion out; a sort, i.e. species:--kind. ). The word "cattle" refers to more than just cows. Strong; (cattle (Genesis 1:24 0024) Hebrew: 929 bhemah be-hay-maw': properly, a dumb beast; especially any large quadruped or animal (often collective):--beast, cattle.). Prior to this the animals talked about were illusive. This is our first indication of what types of animals are being talked about. Clearly we are talking about mammals now. I find it interesting that the mammals appear in this story during the last Creative (Age). The last creature created in the Bible is Man. Science agrees that humankind is the most recent addition to the plethora of lifeforms that have lived on this earth. Man has taken over this planet. Quote Link to comment
Pastor Dave Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 The Bible tells us........ ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, My observation............ The last sentence of this scripture tells us that this is the end of the story. While this is the begining of chapter 2, this is the end of the ancient account of how, and why Man is here.. We are told that Elohiym rested for an age. Mankind was made during the sixth age. This means that for an age Mankind existed and roamed the planet. This Man was not like modern Man. It was a creature much like us, but this Man did not know right from wrong. This Man was, for the most part, just an intelligent animal. For a man, 3500 to 4000 years ago, to have even this basic of an understanding of how the universe started is extraordinary to say the least. This leads me to believe this man when he says that this information is from a being much more knowlegeable (omnipotent) than himself or any other man 3500 to 4000 years ago. From rocks floating in space before the stars formed, to an atmosphere forming around the planet to plants coming into being and then sea life then birds and dinosaurs then the mammals and finally Man. For Moses to have explained the different stages of what it took for this world to have come into being I have to believe the being who told him about it had something to with doing it. Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, RevBogovac said: Yeah, but there are basically two views on that expansion rate: exponential and s-curve; the former is used by the present day majority to "prove" their ("short"-term) point of view, the latter is supported by a small progressive part that simply extrapolates that in nature there is no (proof found of) endless exponential growth but it always comes down to s-curves. More of a "pulsating" universe; expanding a.t.m. but somewhere in the (very distant) future it will be condensing again (and so forth).... And as you often like to point out; a lot of valid ideas started out once by a small minority... That is the model on it's way out. The current word in favor is "oscillating". In this model, there is a "Bang". Not an explosion. A sudden expansion. (The word they use is "inflation".) According to this model, there is a Bang -- followed by "inflation" -- followed by slowing expansion -- followed by contraction -- ending in "The Big Crunch". Rinse and Repeat. (oscillating). This is why they were taking the new measurements and calculations. Two discoveries. 1. The Inflation was not slowing down. It's speeding up. 2. There isn't enough mass in the Universe to stop the expansion. That leaves the possibility of Cosmic geometry. They asked, if Space really is curved, maybe the expansion ends up where it started? The consensus is no. Don't ask me to explain. The math is beyond me. The consensus is that the Universe will continue to expand, until Entropy is the final result. They refer to this state as "Heat Death." This assumes that the values for Dark Energy remain constant. There is no expansion of space within a galaxy. That is because the gravitational forces within a galaxy, serve to prevent Dark Energy, from expanding space. If this is so, the Universe will end in Heat Death. If this changes -- if space inside the galaxies starts expanding -- the Universe will end in "The Big Rip". As to the multiverse -- As yet unproven speculation. There are different models for this. All unproven. I find the arguments interesting. There is no proof for any of it. The math is beyond me. It hurts my head. Edited May 28, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, RevBogovac said: Nice hoop! So the original writers were inspired by god, but god didn't think the writings were important enough to inspire the translators too...? Hmkay.... I think a lot depends on presupposition. If we begin by assuming, that God wants everybody to understand Scripture -- it's a miserable failure. If we assume that Scripture is exactly what God wanted it to be -- then well done. Mission accomplished. According to the Young Earth Creationists -- God created the Earth young -- in ways that would trick and deceive us into thinking that the Earth is Old. A trickster god. The kind of malicious deity, that would enjoy all the confusion and conflict caused by Scripture. Drum roll please. "God is not the author of confusion." Bovine Manure. IMO Of course, if we simply accept that God did not create the Bible -- that ideology driven people -- for what ever reasons -- were behind all of it -- we can stop wringing our hands. Edited May 28, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 10 hours ago, RevBogovac said: Because being the all-mighty, all-knowing, omnipresent god wanting all people to be united in eternal love and peace; he might want to speak with one voice so there would be no misunderstandings (which are the mother of all F#@&-ups)...? Just a thought... Or, God could be a fantasy. Quote Link to comment
RevBogovac Posted May 29, 2019 Report Share Posted May 29, 2019 18 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: That is the model on it's way out. The current word in favor is "oscillating". [...] The math is beyond me. It hurts my head. Interesting, but indeed... Quote Link to comment
RevBogovac Posted May 29, 2019 Report Share Posted May 29, 2019 17 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: Or, God could be a fantasy. Sure, I'd take that explanation too... but the original question was: On 5/27/2019 at 1:44 PM, RabbiO said: Why? Based on : On 5/24/2019 at 10:34 AM, RevBogovac said: One would think that if that book really was inspired by an almighty god it would be more consistent and less prone to interpretation... Then: On 5/28/2019 at 10:17 AM, RevBogovac said: Because being the all-mighty, all-knowing, omnipresent god wanting all people to be united in eternal love and peace; he might want to speak with one voice so there would be no misunderstandings (which are the mother of all F#@&-ups)...? Just a thought... Would keep the responses (re: god actually being the author) in line. But yes, god being a fantasy certainly explains it (even better)... Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted May 29, 2019 Report Share Posted May 29, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, RevBogovac said: Sure, I'd take that explanation too... but the original question was: Based on : Then: Would keep the responses (re: god actually being the author) in line. But yes, god being a fantasy certainly explains it (even better)... There are other possibilities. For instance, God is real -- but not good. Scripture proclaims the goodness of God. That does not make it so. Seriously. Why do we say that God is good? Because God says so? That's meaningless. Is God subordinate to goodness? Then God is not all powerful. We can't have it both ways. There is still the argument based on God's nature. God is good, because it is his nature to be good. Please. Have you read the Book? Edited May 29, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl Quote Link to comment
cuchulain Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 In my opinion, any christian that doesnt believe in science should lose access to everything it provides...but i bet they'd clam up quick if that were the case. Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted May 31, 2019 Report Share Posted May 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, cuchulain said: In my opinion, any christian that doesnt believe in science should lose access to everything it provides...but i bet they'd clam up quick if that were the case. Consider the children who die; because their parents thought prayer would heal them. Consider the rewards, of being an anti-vaxer. Sick children. Sick adults. Consider the smallness of the minds -- the wasted potential -- of the stubborn ignorant. Where Bible study and belief are all that matters. You want to deprive the pious, of the fruits of science? Don't worry. They're way ahead of you. Quote Link to comment
cuchulain Posted June 2, 2019 Report Share Posted June 2, 2019 Now to quarantine them and let evolution work... Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted June 2, 2019 Report Share Posted June 2, 2019 48 minutes ago, cuchulain said: Now to quarantine them and let evolution work... My reply vanished, so I will repeat it. There is no need for quarantine. They are doing it themselves. A few months ago, there was a measles outbreak in Brooklyn Yeshivas. The people who have religious exemptions from vaccination. I hope you didn't think that all the fools are Christian. They do come in other varieties. Quote Link to comment
RevBogovac Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) On 6/1/2019 at 12:55 AM, cuchulain said: In my opinion, any christian that doesnt believe in science should lose access to everything it provides...but i bet they'd clam up quick if that were the case. Basically the reason why the only pious christians I take seriously are Quakers and the like... 😁 But yes, I'm all "Darwinian" in that sense (like Jonathan) too... Edited June 3, 2019 by RevBogovac Quote Link to comment
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted June 3, 2019 Report Share Posted June 3, 2019 3 hours ago, RevBogovac said: Basically the reason why the only pious christians I take seriously are Quakers and the like... 😁 But yes, I'm all "Darwinian" in that sense (like Jonathan) too... Yes. Quote Link to comment
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