Salvation for Fallen Humans & Fallen Angels (A Practical Guide)

[cuchulain]

Your base premise is flawed.  We do NOT know people are in hell, for any specific reason.  One step is to prove that hell exists as an actual place, either spiritually or physically.  Proving the spiritual is very difficult, if you are unbiased on the subject.  I have had many people attempt to prove the spiritual to me, and fail repeatedly.  They usually resort to claiming that I am flawed in some manner or another, mostly that my mind isn't open enough to the truth.  It's an erroneous assumption on their part.  If someone can provide adequate proof that the spiritual realms exist, I would certainly be open to entertaining ideas regarding the spiritual realms.  Of course, that wouldn't necessarily mean I agree with their opinion about what is out there.  Maybe the Shinto crowd is the one that got it right, instead of the Christian group(s).  I say groups, because there are over 30k denominations of Christianity, most of them claiming to be the only one that is the right one and that all others are false.  Then you have Hindu, Buddhism, Paganism(I use the term for a broad spectrum of religions covered by the pagan umbrella term, again multitudinous but with the difference that most of these do NOT claim to be the sole container of truth).  So many variations on religion and spirituality to pick from...leading to the pascal's wager.  See, most Christians use this as a theatric to attempt to persuade a person to just believe, like there's a 50/50 shot...but with literally thousands of choices, there is a better chance of winning the lottery I think.  And they fail to account for the possibility that there is nothing.  Funny how atheism often gets set to the side or forgotten, eh?  

 

Long winded...the short version.  To make a claim of that scale, you should consider proving there is a spiritual life after death in some fashion or another to be considered seriously.  Once you prove that, it's time to prove that there is a God like you specify, and that the words you have written above actually were indeed inspired or framed by this deity.  Then you need to prove heaven and hell as real places.  That's the point where you can show who's spirits are actually incarcerated or not, and develop a plan to bust them from the clink.  I mean, if I thought my brother was in the Marion federal pen and deserved to be let loose, I would want to make sure he is there before I went breaking in to get him out, you know?

[Key]

1 hour ago, Child of God said:

Ask yourselves this one question; if I wanted someone out of hell, how could it be done? Well, we know people are in hell because their sins have not been forgiven. They were not covered by Christ's sacrificial blood atonement.

If we look at both, the old and new testaments, we can see sin offerings being made for people other than ourselves.

Numbers 28:30. Include one male goat to make atonement for you.

Hebrews 5:3. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

And if we look in the book of Maccabees, we can see atonement being made for those in the afterlife.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Today, in the Catholic Church, good works are being used as atonement for those who died in mortal sin.

I reiterate, "It is all the same for God to free prisoners in this world from their captives as it is for Christ to free prisoners from their captives in the spirit world."

Zechariah 9:11. As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.

"And Christ will free prisoners in hell through you because of the blood of the covenant He has with you. This is a blessing bestowed upon us by our Lord."

All well and good, I suppose. However, there are those who see in Scripture that He had said if one has much faith in Him as a mustard seed, one shall be saved. Whereas, it is He is also to have said that to those pleading to Him to be saved from eternal torment He will proclaim He never knew them. In essence, turn His back on those clinging to the mustard seed of faith to be saved. For why plead, if unbelieving He can save them even then?

Just one of several issues I have heard others present as argument for contradiction.

Then, there are many who argue, as Scripture is written by men, no matter their inspiration, as men are corruptible or infallible, so, too, may be the written word.

There lays the burden of proof without the use of Scripture, unless Scripture can be conclusively be proven to be true, as well.

How do you prove Heaven and Hell, without any Holy Texts? This is what you are being asked. So, how would you answer?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

The Koran has a great deal to say on the subject of Hell Fire.  This is to be the fate of everybody, who does not follow the prophet Mohamed, and embrace the path of Islam.  It sounds bad.         

 

Or, I can live my life in fear and trembling, of the Christian Hell Fire.          

 

Oh, dear.  Which Hell is the more scary?  The Christian Hell?  Or the Islamic?          

 

Or, I can relax and live my life without fear.  At least, I can ignore fear based fantasy.        

 

          

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Key said:

How do you prove Heaven and Hell, without any Holy Texts?

 

You can't....... Nothing spiritual can be proven by science or physical evidence. jmo

[Key]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

You can't....... Nothing spiritual can be proven by science or physical evidence. jmo

Therein lies the conundrum then. If one is to take anything on faith, they then gamble on which faith is right. Some say the truth will be revealed to them, but the truth may be that none are right, for that is one of the many odds in gambling, isn't it?

Some say, choose the faith that feels right, or aligns with one's own beliefs. Another gamble. Islam feels right to some, Christianity to some, and so on.

Then there is the extortion for faith view, where an ultimatum is issued to conscript followers to a faith. The believe or suffer severe consequences recruitment drive. This only brings the obedience as slaves kind of adherence to the faith. Oppression rarely creates true faith, but rather drives desire for self preservation from the oppressors. This is the Heaven and Hell presentation to many people, don't you see?

If God truly gives free will and wants folks to use it to choose Him to follow and adhere, then why the need for an ultimatum? 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Key
grammar

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

What objective, verifiable facts, do we have about God?  None.  None at all.  That makes even the question of God's existence, irrelevant and meaningless.  In the absence of facts, all we have is opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Key said:

Therein lies the conundrum then. If one is to take anything on faith, they then gamble on which faith is right. Some say the truth will be revealed to them, but the truth may be that none are right, for that is one of the many odds in gambling, isn't it?

Some say, choose the faith that feels right, or aligns with one's own beliefs. Another gamble. Islam feels right to some, Christianity to some, and so on.

Then there is the extortion for faith view, where an ultimatum is issued to conscript followers to a faith. The believe or suffer severe consequences recruitment drive. This only brings the obedience as slaves kind of adherence to the faith. Oppression rarely creates true faith, but rather drives desire for self preservation from the oppressors. This is the Heaven and Hell presentation to many people, don't you see?

1.  If God truly gives free will and wants folks to use it to choose Him to follow and adhere,

 

2.  then why the need for an ultimatum? 

 

 

1.  Free will is not given.  It goes against the concept of free will.

 

2.  Churches are like any other business.  They have a product to sell.  The product is belief in God -- and Church Membership.  They have to motivate the sales force.  

 

It is the Church that is pushing the product.  God is the product.

 

 

 

 

 

[Seeker]

10 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

What objective, verifiable facts, do we have about God?  None.  None at all.  That makes even the question of God's existence, irrelevant and meaningless.  In the absence of facts, all we have is opinion.

 

 

Everything you experience comes to you through your senses, and is thus subjective.  You do not have "objective verifiable facts" about anything.

 

Do you have an opinion to offer on this topic?

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Seeker
Add quote for context.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

20 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Everything you experience comes to you through your senses, and is thus subjective.  You do not have "objective verifiable facts" about anything.

 

Do you have an opinion to offer on this topic?

 

 

 

Do you really want to do this?     

 

"Cogito ergo sum."     

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

51 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Everything you experience comes to you through your senses, and is thus subjective.  You do not have "objective verifiable facts" about anything.

 

Do you have an opinion to offer on this topic?

 

The simple counter to this argument:  Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

On a side note:  I am constantly amazed at how often the argument crops up.  "Your beliefs are every bit as much subjective, so you should accept MINE!"  What kind of fallacy is that?  Now, another counter.  If God as the chrisitans describe were real, reality would NOT be subjective by us whatsoever.  It would entirely be determined by that divine being.  Nothing subjective, at least beyond the divine's own subjective and sometimes demented whims.

Edited March 16, 2019 by cuchulain

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

The simple counter to this argument:  Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

On a side note:  I am constantly amazed at how often the argument crops up.  "Your beliefs are every bit as much subjective, so you should accept MINE!"  What kind of fallacy is that?  Now, another counter.  If God as the chrisitans describe were real, reality would NOT be subjective by us whatsoever.  It would entirely be determined by that divine being.  Nothing subjective, at least beyond the divine's own subjective and sometimes demented whims.

 

 

The pious do love their mind games.  Anything to cause confusion: and make simple things complicated.

 

 

 

[Seeker]

ROFL.

 

I think that's the first time I've ever been called pious.

 

I also said nothing about accepting my beliefs. I was questioning why you are so insistent on demanding "objective" facts when there ain't no such beastie.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

26 minutes ago, Seeker said:

ROFL.

 

I think that's the first time I've ever been called pious.

 

I also said nothing about accepting my beliefs. I was questioning why you are so insistent on demanding "objective" facts when there ain't no such beastie.

 

 

 

Without facts, all we have is opinion.  If others choose to disdain facts, that is their choice.  I'm looking for facts.  We have plenty of assertions about God.  No facts.  I have lost the joy of arguing, with no facts on either side.  It doesn't matter.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

On 3/15/2019 at 7:20 AM, Key said:

Therein lies the conundrum then. If one is to take anything on faith, they then gamble on which faith is right. Some say the truth will be revealed to them, but the truth may be that none are right, for that is one of the many odds in gambling, isn't it?

Some say, choose the faith that feels right, or aligns with one's own beliefs. Another gamble. Islam feels right to some, Christianity to some, and so on.

Then there is the extortion for faith view, where an ultimatum is issued to conscript followers to a faith. The believe or suffer severe consequences recruitment drive. This only brings the obedience as slaves kind of adherence to the faith. Oppression rarely creates true faith, but rather drives desire for self preservation from the oppressors. This is the Heaven and Hell presentation to many people, don't you see?

If God truly gives free will and wants folks to use it to choose Him to follow and adhere, then why the need for an ultimatum? 

 

Its really not a conundrum, there's just no material proof for God’s existence in the material world. Christians believe in an immaterial God, so to demand material proof of his existence is nonsensical. This is why we say that God is transcendent or supernatural. Since God is beyond nature, he is not an item within the universe, or the nature that he created. So the physical evidence humans demand to prove God's existence could never be available or applicable towards substantiating a spiritual entity existing in another dimension.

 

The truth is the truth, it can be nothing else. Christ said he was the truth (John 14:6), the manifestation of God in the flesh (John1; 1&14), no other religious leader has ever claimed such. When one has faith that Christ is the Truth, they aren't gambling that they're right, but convicted by the truth they've accepted. That truth is not oppressive to Christians because there are no consequences, adherence to the faith is not based on a negative ultimatum, but a desire towards the promise of everlasting life (John 3:16).

 

There are many faiths (religions), but one truth. I'm personally nondenominational, I didn't chose a faith that  aligns with what I think, but rather have faith in the Truth (Christ) of which I try to align myself with. "Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matthew 7: 13-14). 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Dan56

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its really not a conundrum, there's just no material proof for God’s existence in the material world. Christians believe in an immaterial God, so to demand material proof of his existence is nonsensical. This is why we say that God is transcendent or supernatural. Since God is beyond nature, he is not an item within the universe, or the nature that he created. So the physical evidence humans demand to prove God's existence could never be available or applicable towards substantiating a spiritual entity existing in another dimension.

 

The truth is the truth, it can be nothing else. Christ said he was the truth (John 14:6), the manifestation of God in the flesh (John1; 1&14), no other religious leader has ever claimed such. When one has faith that Christ is the Truth, they aren't gambling that they're right, but convicted by the truth they've accepted. That truth is not oppressive to Christians because there are no consequences, adherence to the faith is not based on a negative ultimatum, but a desire towards the promise of everlasting life (John 3:16).

 

There are many faiths (religions), but one truth. I'm personally nondenominational, I didn't chose a faith that  aligns with what I think, but rather have faith in the Truth (Christ) of which I try to align myself with. "Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matthew 7: 13-14). 

 

I said nothing about "material proof".  I said "objective" and "verifiable" but I did not say "material".

 

 

 

If the Bible is to be taken at face value; the people of long ago and far away, got plenty of proof.  Objective, verifiable, facts.  Maybe, the people of that time didn't need faith.  When people have objective, verifiable facts -- as seems to be the case, way back then -- belief doesn't matter.  Now, in the absence of facts -- Now faith is a virtue.  

 

 

It doesn't hold water and I'm calling bull patties.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Key]

11 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I said nothing about "material proof".  I said "objective" and "verifiable" but I did not say "material".

 

 

 

 

In as much as his response may have been used to your view, he actually was responding to me, my friend.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 minutes ago, Key said:

In as much as his response may have been used to your view, he actually was responding to me, my friend.

 

 

 

It's alright.  I'm responsible for my words.  

 

 

 

[Key]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Its really not a conundrum, there's just no material proof for God’s existence in the material world. Christians believe in an immaterial God, so to demand material proof of his existence is nonsensical. This is why we say that God is transcendent or supernatural. Since God is beyond nature, he is not an item within the universe, or the nature that he created. So the physical evidence humans demand to prove God's existence could never be available or applicable towards substantiating a spiritual entity existing in another dimension.

 

The truth is the truth, it can be nothing else. Christ said he was the truth (John 14:6), the manifestation of God in the flesh (John1; 1&14), no other religious leader has ever claimed such. When one has faith that Christ is the Truth, they aren't gambling that they're right, but convicted by the truth they've accepted. That truth is not oppressive to Christians because there are no consequences, adherence to the faith is not based on a negative ultimatum, but a desire towards the promise of everlasting life (John 3:16).

 

There are many faiths (religions), but one truth. I'm personally nondenominational, I didn't chose a faith that  aligns with what I think, but rather have faith in the Truth (Christ) of which I try to align myself with. "Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matthew 7: 13-14). 

Actually, there is. Many, in fact. The foremost is whether to accept anything on faith alone to begin with. 

Then there is the basis of what Christ taught, to question and verify. As He said there would be many false prophets that would come after He left, we are to question so as not to be led astray. But how to verify, or confirm? Christ didn't write the Bible; He who was without sin. Instead it was written by men who were fallible, and, quite frankly, possibly very sinful, or may have had a personal agenda. How to trust that then?

Therein is the need for a God reveal of sorts, no?

There are many many more thoughts for inquisition.

Lastly, but you did choose a faith that aligns with what you think, for that is how readily you accepted it.

[Key]

2 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

It's alright.  I'm responsible for my words.  

 

 

 

As we all should be, no?  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Key said:

Actually, there is. Many, in fact. The foremost is whether to accept anything on faith alone to begin with. 

Then there is the basis of what Christ taught, to question and verify. As He said there would be many false prophets that would come after He left, we are to question so as not to be led astray. But how to verify, or confirm? Christ didn't write the Bible; He who was without sin. Instead it was written by men who were fallible, and, quite frankly, possibly very sinful, or may have had a personal agenda. How to trust that then?

Therein is the need for a God reveal of sorts, no?

There are many many more thoughts for inquisition.

Lastly, but you did choose a faith that aligns with what you think, for that is how readily you accepted it.

 

For a Fundamentalist Christian, there are so many false prophets.  The short list would include Joseph Smith, Mohamed and Sun Myung Moon of the Unification Church.  So many more.

 

Most Jews would take a step back and add Jesus to the list.

 

Atheists take a further step back and throw in the Hebrew Scriptures -- and God.

 

(I know.  This ignores or distorts much of the world.  I don't want to talk like a legal document.)

 

Faith is not fact.  Faith is strongly held opinion.  What others do -- based on factless opinion -- is not my responsibility.  For me, faith is not enough.

 

     

 

 

 

Before anybody has a chance to distort my position:

 

God could exist.  There is no good reason to think so.  It doesn't actually matter.  But sure, it's possible.

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl