Sufficiency of Scripture

[mieshec]

Sufficiency of scripture.....It is the infallible and undeniable truth...It is the sole infallible " GOLD STANDARD" of faith and understanding.....we are back at that..... " HOW CAN YOU BE SURE"......Its a fairy tale.....its an historical document.....it came from man......"HOW DO WE KNOW".......whats on the other side....as ive said in previous topics.....you can believe what you want.....you can have a meaningless existence......you can believe your nothing more than worm dirt....but its much more than that .....Why would anyone believe the capabilities of the human.....was meant to last less than a hundred years.......and then......DIRT NAP......We are a created being.....given FREEWILL.....but with huge limitations......we are IMPRISONED.....on a huge magnetic furnace.....which is very much like a huge precise clock.....evrything has been set......PERFECTLY...(mankind screwed the planet up.... so we are out of balance)....the earth constantly spins revolutions around another EXTERNAL magnetic furnace....giving humans the four seasons.....You just cant seem to come out of your singularity.....So we dont believe in God....cuz....he's not here......we dont believe in Scripture.....because i dont understand......we dont believe in scripture.....because ive never seen a miracle.......i dont believe in scripture.......because i cant see......correctly.........SUFFICIENCY OF SCRIPTURE .........Its like a court room with all the people that comprise a court room.....and your the juror....gathering facts.....listening to statements given by witnesses......WHAT DO I BELIEVE.....and this is your singularity....you cannot seem to think outside of the box.....you point yourself in the direction of your vision....NO PERIPHERAL VISION.....just tunnel vision.....and adhere to self made standards......not taking in the whole picture......and carving out your own singularity.....Defining scripture is life long adventure for me.....its a 50 year+ adventure....putting together a jigsaw puzzle.....THAT MAKES PERFECT SENSE.....in your singularity......you cannot do this.....LIKE THIS......their are many parts of God.....ALL ARE ONE.....IN GOD.....and GOD IS ONE......the angels.....are one in God.....if you believe in Jesus Christ.....you are ONE....in God....but in your singularity......Doubt.....i dont know.....what do i believe.....and this is why.... this .........EXCLUSIVE.....swanky......CLUB GOD.....in which i pursue......is so foreign to your way of life.....its TOO MUCH OF A FAIRY TALE....to be true .......and THAT MY FRIENDS....is the beauty of scripture.....SUFFICIENCY OF SCRIPTURE.........Scripture has inconsistencies....with human error....its not perfect....So take it or leave it......Old Testament manuscripts have been found.....without the hand of the scribe.....in QUMRAN.....where some believe John the Baptist may have visited.....they are still finding amazing discovery.....way beyond what they believed.....only to build the strength of INFALLIBILITY.......THAT...... THEIR IS A GOD........THIS IS .....GODS WORD.......God used the Jews to make his purpose known.....and it was the Jews that made the world aware of this God.....SO WHAT MANKIND HAS ADDED TO HIS DESTRUCTION.......is the ability to twist and pervert these words....to fit mankind's "FREEWILL".......Scripture is a horse race......Im not betting on the loosing horse........Im not going to tell myself that.....i am Born.....im a teenager......im a young man.......im am an adult........and then the process of dying begins.....Be Empty....without meaning or destiny......if thats what you want to believe.....i dont grieve for the dead.....I never grieved for my grandmother......she lived 90 years.....she is with my grandpa.....I PROMISE.....and i will see her again......You can live less than 100 years.....and believe in nothing.......or you can believe in Eternity........FOREVER......IN A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH.....and i like that

[cuchulain]

you really believe that life without your scripture is meaningless?  i think using a need for meaning to determine whats true is...false.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

 

"Once upon a time, God created the Heavens and the Earth."

 

 

 

 

[mieshec]

Its not meaningless......i want to live forever......i want to see my family......i want to explore the earth.....which man has destroyed.....no other book in existence gives clear definition of WHAT WE ARE......accept the manuscripts in scripture....The creator of existence....speaking thru the Jews......."BELIEVE IN ME".....and I do..........if thats all i have to do for an eternity of living in a city that is adorned in gold and precious jewels.....WITH GOD.....FOR ETERNITY.....You want to think its folly and foolish......but they keep digging up proof in Israel and the Middle East.....of these manuscripts....its just ignorance if you dont see truth in God

[cuchulain]

39 minutes ago, mieshec said:

Its not meaningless......i want to live forever......i want to see my family......i want to explore the earth.....which man has destroyed.....no other book in existence gives clear definition of WHAT WE ARE......accept the manuscripts in scripture....The creator of existence....speaking thru the Jews......."BELIEVE IN ME".....and I do..........if thats all i have to do for an eternity of living in a city that is adorned in gold and precious jewels.....WITH GOD.....FOR ETERNITY.....You want to think its folly and foolish......but they keep digging up proof in Israel and the Middle East.....of these manuscripts....its just ignorance if you dont see truth in God

wants are often irrelavent to the truth.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, mieshec said:

1.  Its not meaningless......i want to live forever......i want to see my family......i want to explore the earth.....which man has destroyed.....no other book in existence gives clear definition of WHAT WE ARE......accept the manuscripts in scripture....The creator of existence....speaking thru the Jews......."BELIEVE IN ME".....and I do..........if thats all i have to do for an eternity of living in a city that is adorned in gold and precious jewels.....WITH GOD.....FOR ETERNITY.....You want to think its folly and foolish.....

 

2.  .but they keep digging up proof in Israel and the Middle East.....of these manuscripts.

 

3  .its just ignorance if you dont see truth in God

 

1.  What is true is true.  What is false is false.  Wanting counts for nothing.  Not wanting counts for nothing.

 

2.  Asserting facts which are not true, counts for nothing.  Wishing does not make it so.  Insisting, damages your credibility.  

 

3.  Your childish insults count for nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mieshec]

I apologize.....i just get frustrated.....I see things differently....and my eyes are open....i just dont understand how to make people see with their own spirit....and not the false image they see evryday....because its the most easy way to come to the throne of God.......just believe

Edited April 7, 2018 by mieshec

[mieshec]

20 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

1.  What is true is true.  What is false is false.  Wanting counts for nothing.  Not wanting counts for nothing.

 

2.  Asserting facts which are not true, counts for nothing.  Wishing does not make it so.  Insisting, damages your credibility.  

 

3.  Your childish insults count for nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, mieshec said:

I apologize.....i just get frustrated.....I see things differently....and my eyes are open....i just dont understand how to make people see with their own spirit....and not the false image they see evryday....because its the most easy way to come to the throne of God.......just believe

 

[cuchulain]

no apologies needed on my part.  you share what you perceive to be truth, and we share our perspectives.  nobody 'must' change, it is enough to give what we see as the truth and let us each decide .  at least from my perspective.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

39 minutes ago, mieshec said:

 

 

 

 

You are coming to the table with certain basic assumptions.  First, that it is your faith against non-belief.  This is not the case at all.

 

I don't want to speak for anyone else, so I will make this particular.  You think it is your faith versus my non-belief.  Again, no it's not.  It is  my non-belief against all belief systems -- aka -- religions.  I do not hold your religion in greater disdain than I have for Islam.  Or Hinduism.  Or any number of other religions.

 

I am Agnostic.  I'm looking for objective, verifiable facts.  You have shown me none.  You are not under any obligation to do so.  I truly don't care what you believe.  Your faith is not my concern.  You are entitled to your beliefs and I have no issue with your beliefs.  Unless you want to change me.  In that case, you have to give me a reason.  Again, you have not done so.  Scripture is not a reason.  Neither is threats of Damnation.  Neither is assertions of truth backed up by nothing.  Neither is your call to believe.

 

Again, why should I believe as you do?  I have also been preached at by Muslims.  Also by Shintoists, Hindus and Buddhists.  All of them came at me with the approach that they were right -- and I was wrong.  I see  no reason to take sides.  They are all entitled to believe as they will.  If they want to change me, they have to show me something.

 

A final detail, for now.  You have challenged me to a variation of Pascal's Wager.  Just in case, I should believe in Hell.  Just in case.  So I don't end up there.  What makes you think that I find the Christian Hell more credible -- or alarming, than the Islamic Hell?  It would be ironic if you were to end up there.  Right next to me.  We could both spend eternity together, laughing over that one.  Between the customary weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

I digress.  What kind of pathetic, craven, coward would I have to be -- to change my whole belief structure -- over threats of Perdition?

 

Before I forget, point number two.

 

Do you think I'm trying to change you?  Do you think I'm trying to persecute you?  You have claimed it.          

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mieshec]

Im nothing more than a small voice seeking attention....calling out from the cesspool i wade in evryday.....im a loner and a very private person....my intentions are sincere....not to be overbearing and willfull....I struggle daily with my Christianity and Im very opinionated.....and I aplogize

 

[Dan56]

Sometimes people don't believe because they don't like the message, they don't like the God depicted in the bible,  they don't understand  God's reasoning/judgements, or they don't view God as being righteous or loving..  Belief is a difficult thing when you can't rationalize or relate to a God or his message.. The 'Sufficiency of Scripture' isn't adequate for a lot of people simply because it proves nothing, is nonsensical, and requires blind faith to follow. People accept what they can understand and what makes sense to them, but resist what they can't swallow. Others are more open minded and willing to embrace a belief that touches them in some way. Whatever choice a person makes, there's no need to be apologetic about their decision or opinions.    

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Sometimes people don't believe because they don't like the message, they don't like the God depicted in the bible,  they don't understand  God's reasoning/judgements, or they don't view God as being righteous or loving..  Belief is a difficult thing when you can't rationalize or relate to a God or his message.. The 'Sufficiency of Scripture' isn't adequate for a lot of people simply because it proves nothing, is nonsensical, and requires blind faith to follow. People accept what they can understand and what makes sense to them, but resist what they can't swallow. Others are more open minded and willing to embrace a belief that touches them in some way. Whatever choice a person makes, there's no need to be apologetic about their decision or opinions.    

 

You forget the obvious.  Sometimes a belief is rejected out of honesty.  The person of integrity asks basic questions.  Do I believe this?  Do I really believe this?  Why do I believe this?  When the answer is a solid -- "No" -- the person of integrity has to face facts.  The more so when that belief is based on none.

 

The question boils down to honesty and integrity.  It is -- "What do I believe?"  The question is not -- "What should I believe?" or "What do I want to believe?  Not even -- "What do I need to say that I believe -- or they won't love me?  

 

It is good to be open minded.  Not so much that the brain falls out.  Not so much that the person of honesty and integrity, must live a lie.  Without honesty.  Without integrity.  Without self respect.  Without dignity.  Without courage.  Just a false front.  To get along.  To be accepted.  To be loved.  You know -- just in case.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

For anyone who cares, I would like to expand briefly, on my world view.

 

For the sake of argument, let us suppose that all God belief were to vanish from the world.  Now what?  Have all the problems of the world vanished with religion?  Have peace and joy come to Humanity?  Is the world now experiencing paradise?  No.  Of course not.  The world would still be a mess.  Maybe a different mess -- but still a mess.

 

Because Humanity would still be a mess.  Because critical thinking would still be in short supply.  Because people wouldn't be changed at all, by the lack of religion.  Because sloppy, irrational thinking would still dominate.  Because people would still be stupid and crazy and irrational and greedy and self aggrandizing and petty and mean spirited and destructive and all the rest of it.

 

I had to say it.  No.  My world outlook would not bring panacea.  One thing would change.  Humanity would know that we have to fix things -- because Sky Daddy won't.

 

I'm climbing down from my soap box now.  As you were.

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mieshec]

I wish for a simple life....away from the industry....away from the technology....away from the governments.....just a small plot of land i could live on.....grow my own food....i cant leave the US without permission....I tried to go to Canada....i had enough points for immigration.....but because of Canadian and American law....id be embroiled in red tape for years....we are free....in the confines of the American borders....but we are trapped in our own illusion of freedom....Changing the world.....is completely impossible.....I always thought.....what would be the most amazing miracle on the planet......is getting the world together and just taking ONE day.......to just stop......shut down the machines of industry......and just stop......this would be impossible......in one day the world would loose Trillions of dollars.....just for stopping.....but one day.......it will change......it will stop......im just a dreamer........thank you for your patients and understanding

[Geordon]

On 4/7/2018 at 4:25 PM, mieshec said:

its just ignorance if you dont see truth in God

 

Which God, though?  I have dedicated myself to Hekate as my patroness.  Others may follow Ahura Mazda, or Mithras, or Allah, or Pelé or any of thousands of other gods.  Or they may be Satanists, or they may be directed by human consciousness, or they may be agnostics or atheists.  Who are you to say what they see is false?  Are *you* a god?

 

To claim that your personal god and faith are the only true and legitimate ones is the hight of conceit (1).

 

On 4/7/2018 at 6:18 PM, mieshec said:

and my eyes are open....i just dont understand how to make people see with their own spirit....and not the false image they see evryday....because its the most easy way to come to the throne of God.......just believe

 

You say your eyes are open.  But do they see that there are other paths that are just as legitimate as your own?  You can't make people see with their own spirit.  And there is nothing to say that, even if you could, that what they would see is entirely different than what you see.  Who are you to say that the images that they see (or, that which I see, as an example. I reject Christianity on it's face but I have no problem with someone else cleaving to it... As long as they leave me to my own path without let or hindrance).

 

Other than as a form of coercion, why do you want to force people who have no interest to come to the throne of your god?  And who are you to say that their beliefs are less precise and correct than your own, merely because they are different?

 

Finally, please, for the love of all that you hold sacred, start using the established rules of English, such as capital letters for proper names and to begin sentences, and a single period, followed by either one or two (pick but be consistent) between sentences, and use paragraphs to separate concepts.  Not doing so makes it difficult to read your postings.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Geordon said:

 

Which God, though?  I have dedicated myself to Hekate as my patroness.  Others may follow Ahura Mazda, or Mithras, or Allah, or Pelé or any of thousands of other gods.  Or they may be Satanists, or they may be directed by human consciousness, or they may be agnostics or atheists.  Who are you to say what they see is false?  Are *you* a god?

 

To claim that your personal god and faith are the only true and legitimate ones is the hight of conceit (1).

 

 

You say your eyes are open.  But do they see that there are other paths that are just as legitimate as your own?  You can't make people see with their own spirit.  And there is nothing to say that, even if you could, that what they would see is entirely different than what you see.  Who are you to say that the images that they see (or, that which I see, as an example. I reject Christianity on it's face but I have no problem with someone else cleaving to it... As long as they leave me to my own path without let or hindrance).

 

Other than as a form of coercion, why do you want to force people who have no interest to come to the throne of your god?  And who are you to say that their beliefs are less precise and correct than your own, merely because they are different?

 

Finally, please, for the love of all that you hold sacred, start using the established rules of English, such as capital letters for proper names and to begin sentences, and a single period, followed by either one or two (pick but be consistent) between sentences, and use paragraphs to separate concepts.  Not doing so makes it difficult to read your postings.

 

Yes on everything.

 

    

[mererdog]

3 hours ago, Geordon said:

To claim that your personal god and faith are the only true and legitimate ones is the hight of conceit (1).

Is it not conceit on our end to presume conceit on his end? He leaves no room for the possibility that he is wrong about his God. You leave no room for the possibility that he is right about his God. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by mererdog

[mieshec]

OK...The challenge is this.....MY GOD.....the God of Israel.....The God of Moses and Abraham......The God of King David.....What ever you believe.....convince me....convince me thru historical records......convince me thru archaeology........Convince me by the world around us.... and its people....GIVE ME PROOF....of a plan by whatever God or whatever you believe.....is the right understanding to the explanation of existence.....If this was the trial of the century in an American court room....Im ready to submit my evidence.....how about you....RIGHT NOW......ever since the manuscripts of scripture came to the eyes of man....mankind has tried to keep them secret.....tried to destroy the manuscripts.....Burned at the stake and tortured the innocent for reading and translating the book ....even books like the Quran are in agreement with scripture......I can keep going.......whatever you believe....whatever you can convince me that my fairy tale....is just what it is.....a fairy tale.....Im open for suggestions.....But in 2000+ years of its existence.....Scripture hasnt been found to be just a fictional piece of work.....and I dont force people to look at my discussions.....Im an Artist.....if you dont like what i have to say or the way i write.....dont reply and dont look at what i write....I dont write in fiction....just the truth....

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, mererdog said:

Is it not conceit on our end to presume conceit on his end? He leaves no room for the possibility that he is wrong about his God. You leave no room for the possibility that he is right about his God. 

 

 

Times beyond counting, I have been proven to be mistaken -- about a great many things.  If I am mistaken now -- feel free to show me the evidence of my error.  No evidence?  Nothing?  Then I will continue to disdain these outlandish assertions -- all made without evidence or plausibility  -- and based on nothing more than the desire to believe.