Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 40 minutes ago, Dan56 said: 1. If your offended by a bible verse, I can't help that.. 2. Nor do I comprehend how a person can be insulted by something they don't even believe is true? 3. If my opinion is biblical, your real problem is with the bible.. 4. There are 31,103 verses in the bible, buckle-up. I'm just defining choice differently than you.. Wanting to believe your nephew, but choosing not to, is a choice. Your gut feeling about him overrides your desire to believe he's changed, so your decision (choice) is not to believe he's really changed. Having an instinctive response can be the basis of a persons choice too. To me, having faith is a choice, just as not having faith is a choice. You simply hear something and choose to believe or not believe it.. Having faith is not a matter of choice to you because you've chosen not to believe, but having a negative rather than an affirmative reaction to something does not negate choice. What you seem to be saying is something like; I don't want to get married, so marriage isn't a choice for me? 1. It is not the Bible verse that I found offensive, but your use of it. It's an amazing skill you have -- to have God make your insults for you. It lets you pretend to be clean. 2. Such pretend innocence. Or maybe you do lack such basic comprehension? 3. My problem is with the smug arrogance of your saying offensive things, then hiding behind Scripture. You're not the source of nastiness. It was God. (Don't twist my words. That was sarcasm. Yes. You are the source.) 4. Are you planning to weaponize all of them? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Pastor Dave said: I thought we were talking about normal folks here. One of the most effective ways to understand how a system works is to look at the ways in which it can break down. Malfunction highlights interactions you may not otherwise notice, and provides proof of the difference between what is present and what is needed. Figuring out the causes of failure is a necessary part of figuring out the causes of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, VonNoble said: Ah.... glad I threw that out... I was texting with teammate in my Philosophy class. I see the points you raised. Good ones. Thx (very much) von An additional thought: When you speak of God doing the choosing; it means you have already accepted the existence of God -- and defined the God that exists at the same time. That is, distinct from the God of Deism or Pantheism -- which does not choose. You are further stating that you do no choose -- God chooses for you -- which is a problem in the context of "free will issues". As I said -- invisible assumptions. They can be a mine field. Once you accept basic premises, it can be hard to argue your way out of them. Edited March 22, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Dan56 said: I don't want to get married, so marriage isn't a choice for me? A more apt analogy would be "I want to get married but I can't, so marriage isn't a choice for me" He said he wants to have faith in his nephew. Perhaps he has even tried and failed. If a thing is impossible to do, is it fair to call it a choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Dan56 said: I'm just defining choice differently than you.. Wanting to believe your nephew, but choosing not to, is a choice. Your gut feeling about him overrides your desire to believe he's changed, so your decision (choice) is not to believe he's really changed. Having an instinctive response can be the basis of a persons choice too. Dan56, thank you for your response. I have been thinking about your posting and appreciate you made it. As you can imagine (choose to imagine) - my life would be FAR more peaceful if I were to give in and support my sister's contention that my nephew is instantly a decent human being. If addiction is a choice (taking the drugs might be a choice but the reaction to them is very much NOT much of a conscious decision - it is a biologic chemical reaction as I understand it) - he cannot choose the level of "high" for this dose of an illicit drug. He is completely out of his mind when higher than a kite and not rational. Once the addiction gets far enough out of control - the court is not even sure if he is rational enough to know right from wrong. I believe you totally get where I am at on this one. We might just be talking past one another regarding the process I think I am in with this....I want to give the kid a chance - everyone has tried lots of times. I want to believe it will be different. Self preservation kicks in and it doesn't feel right. I am not choosing that feeling. I want to choose to ease my sister's pain. I want to say comforting things. I want to believe the little screw up finally changed. But I don't. I can say I do. I can say all the right things. I nod when the experts beat up on me and tell me I am a stubborn old fool. I even agree that I am stubborn old fool. I hear & understand the reasons. However, there is not choice to be made by me....i instinctually have no reason to engage in this. My gut is screaming this is a bad idea I am going with my gut till time allows for an informed decision. My only choice is to wait on a decision. I am just processing the new info (intake with no output so far.) Indecision is a decision not wait. I don't know enough. That is different than choosing to believe or choosing not to believe. It is a solid - neutral. I choose neutral if you want to define a choice in this. If that is so - then I am not choosing to NOT believe. I am also not choosing to believe. The actual position I am in is not knowing. (different than not caring) (different than stubborn) (different than inept)....etc. Maybe I am afraid of the next round of trouble for everyone I love if we trust this kid Maybe fear is driving me (not reason.) . If it is fear - I am not choosing fear I am recognizing fear is running amok in me I am powerless (temporarily) to control the fear.) And once afraid of something it causes a reaction...but not decisions...maybe. Anger is another feeling - I USUALLY can control. I can make as many choices as possible to limit the impact. But in the case of justifiable homicide - the court says there are moments when we don't choose - we just respond. So I am still working through the idea of instinctive responses being a choice. If I happen upon a burning building with someone about to jump out a window.... or see a child being pulled into a car against their will. I might well respond to render aid without making a conscious choice. I know that I am so very limited (physically) in what I can do. I do not process the belief I can help...I impulsively move forward as a conditioned response. I am not choosing it....If I process it - I realized I am pretty useless these days even though I want that not to be the case. When someone jumps on a hand grenade they do not necessarily believe they are going to die - they just respond in the blink of an eye. The ones that live.... tell us it was not a choice - they just found themselves in motion.....no recognition of a decision to do or not do - it was an action in motion before the brain engaged. Which incidentally science supports. There is evidence that we actually are in motion often without fully finishing our decisions. Therefore an impulse can direct us before we decide. I am working on it still....the jury is out on this one for a bit longer. According to you I am choosing not to believe you. If that is so - then (joking here) - I would contend you are choosing not to accept my point of view. You can - but you find it wanting and wrong. Even if you think that - you have a choice and can control that line of thinking. You can change that gut reaction... and you can choose to believe I am right. Joking aside..... I readily admit I don't know and I am trying to figure it out. I would like to choose me as right. I simply do not have enough evidence to make that decision. Yet. So for now I am not idle or lost. I am pondering and weighing and analyzing. No decision is not the same as no direction or no reason in play. I am working on it. I don't know if I am right or wrong. Until I know - I don't believe I am right. I also do not believe you are wrong. I don't know. No value judgement on either of us. You might be right. I might be wrong. Vice versa. No belief possible yet. Not a choice not to believe. Just a recognition it is a work in progress. Much like my nephew. No reason to believe him. No reason to choose he will or he won't make it. No conclusion possible this early. So no belief. Hope - yes. But I am not opening my checkbook. THAT is a choice. Belief is not. Maybe. Again thanks for your input von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 31 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: An additional thought: When you speak of God doing the choosing; it means you have already accepted the existence of God -- and defined the God that exists at the same time. That is, distinct from the God of Deism or Pantheism -- which does not choose. You are further stating that you do no choose -- God chooses for you -- which is a problem in the context of "free will issues". As I said -- invisible assumptions. They can be a mine field. Once you accept basic premises, it can be hard to argue your way out of them. I can see that (slowly the light is coming on).....but it is a new realm of thinking of me. I am thankful to have additional help ....as I learn a new level of processing. I guess old dogs can learn new tricks. I am finding I have to look at levels beyond my normal processing in forming decisions in this area. It like every other skill - requires practice. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 29 minutes ago, mererdog said: A more apt analogy would be "I want to get married but I can't, so marriage isn't a choice for me" He said he wants to have faith in his nephew. Perhaps he has even tried and failed. If a thing is impossible to do, is it fair to call it a choice? Exactly, I have tried many times. You captured it nicely. Thanks for articulating it so well for me. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Conscious choices, unconscious choices, choices driven by chemical imbalances or choices made by the mentally ill are none the less choices. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 This just arrived in my email... We do not get to choose what we understand (or believe.) Much like the old joke; someone can explain it to you but not understand it for you. We get to invest in improving our understanding with time and effort. We get to search in order to remove doubt. But lack of understanding (or belief) is not a matter of choice. An added thought to the topic currently under review. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 32 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said: Conscious choices, unconscious choices, choices driven by chemical imbalances or choices made by the mentally ill are none the less choices. Hmmm... can that happen? von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Yes. Running into a burning building without thinking of the consequences, leaping into the river to save the child, covering the hand grenade with your body are not instinctual responses. If they were instinctual, they would be shared by all of the same individuals of the specie with a only a few exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Yes. Running into a burning building without thinking of the consequences, leaping into the river to save the child, covering the hand grenade with your body are not instinctual responses. If they were instinctual, they would be shared by all of the same individuals of the specie with a only a few exceptions. There are but a few of us that would do such things. Fight, flight or freeze are all choices be they conscious or sub (un)conscious choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Yes. Running into a burning building without thinking of the consequences, leaping into the river to save the child, covering the hand grenade with your body are not instinctual responses. If they were instinctual, they would be shared by all of the same individuals of the specie with a only a few exceptions. There are but a few of us that would do such things. Fight, flight or freeze are all choices be they conscious or sub (un)conscious choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Yes. Running into a burning building without thinking of the consequences, leaping into the river to save the child, covering the hand grenade with your body are not instinctual responses. If they were instinctual, they would be shared by all of the same individuals of the specie with a only a few exceptions. There are but a few of us that would do such things. Fight, flight or freeze are all choices be they conscious or sub (un)conscious choices. 1 hour ago, VonNoble said: Hmmm... can that happen? von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 I am having a dickens of a time with my posts today. Please forgive me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 I am having a dickens of a time with my posts today. Please forgive me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 I am having a dickens of a time with my posts today. Please forgive me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said: Yes. Running into a burning building without thinking of the consequences, leaping into the river to save the child, covering the hand grenade with your body are not instinctual responses. If they were instinctual, they would be shared by all of the same individuals of the specie with a only a few exceptions. There are but a few of us that would do such things. Fight, flight or freeze are all choices be they conscious or sub (un)conscious choices. My symapthies re technical difficulties. I am sure the admin folks can and will assist. on looking at the bridge collapse in Florida...it seemed as if every person witnessing the event immediately left their car and start forward to help. It looked like an automatic response. Possibly the instinctual response is more acute in some more than others? Thanks for adding a consideration for us to mull over. You might be right. I always associated choice with thinking...processing...concluding..... then choosing. But I never really studied if that was accurate. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) The science of choosing unconsciously... Edited March 22, 2018 by mererdog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) From the article above... "Our study shows that decisions are unconsciously prepared much longer ahead than previously thought. But we do not know yet where the final decision is made. We need to investigate whether a decision prepared by these brain areas can still be reversed." That possibility of reversal is the core of the issue to me. It seems clear to me that a thing can only rightly be called a choice if it is possible to choose differently. If you can only choose differently in specific circumstances (like you get new evidence) then it is not really a choice in any other cicumstance. I also think that something can be the result of a choice without, itself, being a choice. Like stepping out of the plane is a choice, but falling is just gravity. There's a fascinating old case study of a man who lost a large segment of his memory, and the ability to form new ones. He didn't know where he lived, so he could not choose to go home. But he would go for a daily walk with no destination in mind, and inevitably wander home. Ask him how he did it, and he would just get confused... Edited March 22, 2018 by mererdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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