problems

[cuchulain]

i think there is an inherent flaw with any faith of peace when its followers must explain why and when violence is acceptable. kind of a built in contradiction, isnt it?

 

[mererdog]

The common assumption is that peace can only be attained through violence. That assumption causes people who love peace to glorify violence. And it isn't just a religion thing. In my experience, most atheists hold to the same assumption, allowing them to think of themselves as men of peace even while they are in the midst of acting violently. Its a case of using the ends (peace) to justify the means (violence). 

Edited October 24, 2017 by mererdog

[cuchulain]

30 minutes ago, mererdog said:

The common assumption is that peace can only be attained through violence. That assumption causes people who love peace to glorify violence. And it isn't just a religion thing. In my experience, most atheists hold to the same assumption, allowing them to think of themselves as men of peace even while they are in the midst of acting violently. Its a case of using the ends (peace) to justify the means (violence). 

You aren't wrong.  I worded that as if it were only the religious, which it certainly isn't. those who hold to religion often claim it as the moral authority, setting themselves as the higher standard. i wonder how they can justify lowering their self proclaimed standard without feeling hypcritical?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i think there is an inherent flaw with any faith of peace when its followers must explain why and when violence is acceptable. kind of a built in contradiction, isnt it?

 

 

That depends on the mission behind the mission.  If the true purpose of the faith, is to uproot and replace all other faiths -- then no.  There is no contradiction.  The goal is cultural violence.  Physical violence is consistent.  When logic and reason fail, there is always terror.  

[mererdog]

12 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i wonder how they can justify lowering their self proclaimed standard without feeling hypcritical?

Feeling like a hypocrite is more easily avoided than looking like a hypocrite. As long as my motives remain consistent, it is easy for me to ignore inconsistencies in my actions. Beyond that, when your morals are dictated from without, moral consistency only requires Doing What You Are Told. Where rules are inconsistent, consistant rule-following requires acting inconsistently, which can cause a person to look like a hypocrite without actually being one.

Edited October 25, 2017 by mererdog

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, mererdog said:

Feeling like a hypocrite is more easily avoided than looking like a hypocrite. As long as my motives remain consistent, it is easy for me to ignore inconsistencies in my actions. Beyond that, when your morals are dictated from without, moral consistency only requires Doing What You Are Told. Where rules are inconsistent, consistant rule-following requires acting inconsistently, which can cause a person to look like a hypocrite without actually being one.

 

True.  We can take that a step further.  When right and wrong are arbitrary declarations from a god -- it's all following orders.  

[mererdog]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

True.  We can take that a step further.  When right and wrong are arbitrary declarations from a god -- it's all following orders.  

Although, if you agree with the arbitrary declarations, the line between following orders and doing what you want gets extremely blurry. And when the arbitrary declarations are open to interpretation, that line more or less disappears...

Edited October 25, 2017 by mererdog

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, mererdog said:

Although, if you agree with the arbitrary declarations, the line between following orders and doing what you want gets extremely blurry. And when the arbitrary declarations are open to interpretation, that line more or less disappears...

 

 

On reflection, I have to agree.  When the pious don't want to do something, they turn the page and find a different quote.  

[Joyful]

Violence is never acceptable in the name of peace and any religion that justifies this is just a religion, man made not inspired by the Divine.    Too man y times, like LObl says they turn the page to find a different quote.  You can find any quote to justify your stance in your mind, but when your mind is one with the Universal God Mind, you know peace and you will radiate out peace.  Too many belief systems in this world put war to be something to be proud of.  Well sorry I am not buying it!  War what is it good for?  (I need more coffee, sorry LOL)

[Key]

3 hours ago, Joyful said:

Violence is never acceptable in the name of peace and any religion that justifies this is just a religion, man made not inspired by the Divine.    Too man y times, like LObl says they turn the page to find a different quote.  You can find any quote to justify your stance in your mind, but when your mind is one with the Universal God Mind, you know peace and you will radiate out peace.  Too many belief systems in this world put war to be something to be proud of.  Well sorry I am not buying it!  War what is it good for?  (I need more coffee, sorry LOL)

You brushed just a bit of it, very good. The mind, whether rational or no, doesn't necessarily need religion or a book to justify virtually anything. So, what it really boils down to is belief. That relies on personal interpretation, or acceptance of an interpretation, but based on own bias. upon which to act or debate.

This is often the reason for different views of morality, of which violence may take more than one side.

Man is primal in instinct. Which is why it is so difficult to have all, or even in the least - most, to agree on a form of peace and how to achieve it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Joyful said:

Violence is never acceptable in the name of peace and any religion that justifies this is just a religion, man made not inspired by the Divine.    Too man y times, like LObl says they turn the page to find a different quote.  You can find any quote to justify your stance in your mind, but when your mind is one with the Universal God Mind, you know peace and you will radiate out peace.  Too many belief systems in this world put war to be something to be proud of.  Well sorry I am not buying it!  War what is it good for?  (I need more coffee, sorry LOL)

 

The Bible is a tool for justifying what you want to do.  You want to do something awful?  There is a verse for that.  You want to do something good?  There is a verse for that also.  The skill is bending Scripture to your will, so that you can justify what ever you want to do.  After all, God said to do it.  Onward, Christian soldiers.  Onward as to war.    

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

I think it is a better tool than most for doing what someone wants, and justifying it using the scripture.  It is a better tool because so many of the world accepts the bible as valid.  When someone uses Dungeons and Dragons, or a comic book, or a tv show,  to justify doing what they want, nobody has a problem saying that's just plain crazy.  But use the bible, and we have to tip toe around the freedom of religion bit, decide if the person was actually following what they believe religiously or just using religion as a scapegoat, before we can determine the person what just plain crazy.  And even then, even if we determine that the person WAS religiously motivated, that it CAN be backed up by scripture, we shouldn't have a problem saying that person was wrong.  But we do.  Remember that Davis lady, the county clerk in Kentucky, who refused to do her job because she didn't believe in gay marriage?  There are still people who think she should have been allowed to refuse to issue marriage licenses based solely on the fact that she was a Christian.  If that keeps you from doing a key function of your job, get a different job.  Don't expect us to accommodate crazy just because it has religion attached to it.