What is the tipping point ? (lessons)

[VonNoble]

When we instruct a child when is it a lesson and when is it an

imposition of OUR view, OUR way, OUR belief?

 

When is it teaching and when is it indoctrination? What is the

measuring tool between those?

 

Some parents in the world  - let kids use knives at a early age

because they will remember the lesson if they feel hurt.

 

Some parents think over-protecting kids goes against the natural

order - the weak and stupid ones are suppose to die. 

 

I am just curious.  

 

How do you know when you are teaching them for their own

sake........and when is it for the parent's sake.....so they become

little conformists?  Maybe that is the right way to go.   But I 

wonder if there is a line that is crossed between lesson and

something not helpful?

 

Disclosure :  I have no biologic kids so I have no dog in the hunt

by way of experience.  I have had foster kids but that is not 

exactly the same thing...and I only had older kids. By then they

had a whole bag full of lessons I didn't teach them. 

 

von

[Key]

There was a time where the natural order adhered to the rule of survival of the fittest to ensure species would continue to thrive and live long into the future. Modern technology has rendered this concept obsolete. Because of this, there are now folks who rather much place their kids into a figurative protective bubble. Life lessons have become teaching points not so much by experience now, but by a collective knowledge based on past history. In so much as society's technology advances, it also looks back and changes how the past is looked upon.

This is a shame, for many useful skills that may be deemed dangerous are not being developed or experienced for lack of trying, or lack of support and supervision.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Education takes so many forms.  Formal childhood education is one piece of a whole.  Does the group teach Universal equality?  Or do the people with the wrong beliefs go to Hell Fire?  Do the people mix freely with others?  Or is there cultural isolation?  Is there a sense of being persecuted by others?  How much time is spent on formal church prayer?  How complex is church culture?  Are they afraid of outsiders?

 

I'm no Sociologist.  Or Anthropologist.  A serious examination of childhood training is not a simple mater.  

[VonNoble]

2 hours ago, Key said:

There was a time where the natural order adhered to the rule of survival of the fittest to ensure species would continue to thrive and live long into the future. Modern technology has rendered this concept obsolete. Because of this, there are now folks who rather much place their kids into a figurative protective bubble. Life lessons have become teaching points not so much by experience now, but by a collective knowledge based on past history. In so much as society's technology advances, it also looks back and changes how the past is looked upon.

This is a shame, for many useful skills that may be deemed dangerous are not being developed or experienced for lack of trying, or lack of support and supervision.

 

Yes.  This is what I am seeing as well.  Thank you

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Education takes so many forms.  Formal childhood education is one piece of a whole.  Does the group teach Universal equality?  Or do the people with the wrong beliefs go to Hell Fire?  Do the people mix freely with others?  Or is there cultural isolation?  Is there a sense of being persecuted by others?  How much time is spent on formal church prayer?  How complex is church culture?  Are they afraid of outsiders?

 

I'm no Sociologist.  Or Anthropologist.  A serious examination of childhood training is not a simple mater.  

 

Thanks for joining in on this one as you have far more of a background on this 

than I ever will.   IS THERE a line in the sand when experts would see something

as indoctrination?     

 

I am thinking of cult kids - who never have a chance to know "normal or healthy" by

way of growing up. Surely there is some criteria for determining when such things 

cross over a line into abuse?    Or maybe not - I just assume there is an imaginary

line in the sand. 

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

30 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

 

Thanks for joining in on this one as you have far more of a background on this 

than I ever will.   IS THERE a line in the sand when experts would see something

as indoctrination?     

 

I am thinking of cult kids - who never have a chance to know "normal or healthy" by

way of growing up. Surely there is some criteria for determining when such things 

cross over a line into abuse?    Or maybe not - I just assume there is an imaginary

line in the sand. 

 

von

 

I'm going to have to take this topic in small bites.  The topic is too complex to be expansive.

 

If we want to know what children are being taught -- we have to listen to what comes out of the mouths of children.  This is much more than formal education.  But clearly, instruction was taking place.

 

I used to have a circle of Hasidic friends.  In one household, there were two young boys.  Brothers.  When they wanted to be mean to each other -- the worst, most hurtful thing they could come up with was -- "You're a goy!".

 

     

 

Education is not simple, but lessons are learned.

 

 

 

An addendum:  When I was a child, my religious instruction was Reform Jewish Sunday school.  Reform Judaism is lacking in substance.  In practice, the bulk of my education was history.  The history, in turn, boiled down to the simplistic.  Look what "they" did to "us" for the last 5,000 years.  

 

So much for my early childhood, formal training.

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I'm going to have to take this topic in small bites.  The topic is too complex to be expansive.

 

If we want to know what children are being taught -- we have to listen to what comes out of the mouths of children.  This is much more than formal education.  But clearly, instruction was taking place.

 

I used to have a circle of Hasidic friends.  In one household, there were two young boys.  Brothers.  When they wanted to be mean to each other -- the worst, most hurtful thing they could come up with was -- "You're a goy!".

 

 

Okay!   Now this is what I was getting at...to a lesser extent. 

So if a child is being TAUGHT thusly - is it safe for me to assume that 

NATURALLY a child does not arrive without bias.  

 

Is that much right (thanks for going slow on this one) - By nature 

children to do not focus on differences in people, skin types etc?

That is learned?

 

Does hate or conversely - kindness - come naturally to kids? 

Is it a temperament they are born with or a skill set they learn?

(maybe it is some other option - and I am clueless) 

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

Okay!   Now this is what I was getting at...to a lesser extent. 

So if a child is being TAUGHT thusly - is it safe for me to assume that 

NATURALLY a child does not arrive without bias.  

 

Is that much right (thanks for going slow on this one) - By nature 

children to do not focus on differences in people, skin types etc?

That is learned?

 

Does hate or conversely - kindness - come naturally to kids? 

Is it a temperament they are born with or a skill set they learn?

(maybe it is some other option - and I am clueless) 

 

von

 

 

I have not observed kindness or love to be innate to children.  Children can be mean.  Children will tear the wings off a fly and then laugh at it.  Children think the Three Stooges are funny.  Children enjoy seeing people fall on the ice and not be able to stand.  

 

Empathy for the suffering of others has to be developed over time.

 

I don't know how much bias is natural to children.  Racial, gender or anything else.  It's the whole Nature vs. Nurture argument.  I am clear that adults, have false expectations, of kindness and love when dealing with children.

 

Why are classroom bullies, so much a part of childhood?

 

 

[VonNoble]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I have not observed kindness or love to be innate to children.  Children can be mean.  Children will tear the wings off a fly and then laugh at it.  Children think the Three Stooges are funny.  Children enjoy seeing people fall on the ice and not be able to stand.  

 

Empathy for the suffering of others has to be developed over time.

 

I don't know how much bias is natural to children.  Racial, gender or anything else.  It's the whole Nature vs. Nurture argument.  I am clear that adults, have false expectations, of kindness and love when dealing with children.

 

Why are classroom bullies, so much a part of childhood?

 

 

 

Actually I am sort of taken aback.   I have not been around little kids much. 

I think they are kind of foreign little creatures to me. 

 

I never know what to expect from them.   I don't understand them.  

They seem pretty willing to have fun almost always.

And I find I can bribe most of them with ice cream. 

 

That's pretty much what I know. 

 

I have no clue how classroom bullies exist.   

Then again- if I ran up against one - I put up a fight (not always successfully)

as a kid.  That lesson taught me to go toe to toe with them QUICK in life later

on.   

 

I  had four or five pair of glasses busted in as many months as a kid. 

I never started the fight....but I never hid from one either.

I  never threw the first punch.  But I had a green light after someone hit

me to bang them back hard.  My father said that was the only 

way to stop them.   I believed him in that regard for awhile.   

 

My mother insisted that out thinking them was better.   I guess that makes me

a switch hitter (pun intended) with bullies.  Punch or bob and weave...or sidestep

...or make them laugh if possible  - whatever one seemed most effective. 

 

As far as in the classroom - you caught me by surprise.   I sort of thought teachers 

were trained to watch for that nonsense and shut it off.   OBVIOUSLY I have not

been IN a classroom or school for a very long time. 

 

von 

[VonNoble]

I wonder - if a kid is mean....again....are they just born with 

angry little temperaments?   Or do they pick that up along the way?

Like an older sibling harasses them and they start fighting back

early to get their share of the food or whatever?

 

To the extent a kid IS TAUGHT awful stuff - what recourse is

there?   Can a kid be taken away because the parents are just 

hateful people?   It seems that would hamper them forever in 

life so isn't that some kind of abuse?

 

Seriously - is there a venue to remove a kid even when it is 

not physical. 

 

I once was assigned to represent our company on the Board of a

Child Abuse Council for the local city.  I had to resign.  After two 

meetings I resigned.  So I don't know what the law can do or not

do - I simply could not wrap my mind around any of it.  

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, VonNoble said:

I wonder - if a kid is mean....again....are they just born with 

angry little temperaments?   Or do they pick that up along the way?

Like an older sibling harasses them and they start fighting back

early to get their share of the food or whatever?

 

To the extent a kid IS TAUGHT awful stuff - what recourse is

there?   Can a kid be taken away because the parents are just 

hateful people?   It seems that would hamper them forever in 

life so isn't that some kind of abuse?

 

Seriously - is there a venue to remove a kid even when it is 

not physical. 

 

I once was assigned to represent our company on the Board of a

Child Abuse Council for the local city.  I had to resign.  After two 

meetings I resigned.  So I don't know what the law can do or not

do - I simply could not wrap my mind around any of it.  

 

von

 

 

Again, Nature vs. Nurture.  If we do not go to specifics, we have an answer which is over generalized and meaningless.  Theories of child rearing abound.  Which theory is the flavor of the week?  And who will enforce it?  

 

Children are removed from unfit homes in America.  The problem is who gets to decide what "unfit" means.  I've heard of cases where a parent lost custody, because they were Wiccan or Atheist -- or were on drugs.  I never heard of a parent losing custody, because they were racist.  What is abuse?  What is discipline?  What is lack of supervision?  These are deep waters, not for the faint of heart.  

 

Parents have been hauled into court for spanking their children.  What if scolding becomes actionable?  Then what?  An arrest for yelling?

Edited October 5, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

Actually I am sort of taken aback.   I have not been around little kids much. 

I think they are kind of foreign little creatures to me. 

 

I never know what to expect from them.   I don't understand them.  

They seem pretty willing to have fun almost always.

And I find I can bribe most of them with ice cream. 

 

That's pretty much what I know. 

 

I have no clue how classroom bullies exist.   

Then again- if I ran up against one - I put up a fight (not always successfully)

as a kid.  That lesson taught me to go toe to toe with them QUICK in life later

on.   

 

I  had four or five pair of glasses busted in as many months as a kid. 

I never started the fight....but I never hid from one either.

I  never threw the first punch.  But I had a green light after someone hit

me to bang them back hard.  My father said that was the only 

way to stop them.   I believed him in that regard for awhile.   

 

My mother insisted that out thinking them was better.   I guess that makes me

a switch hitter (pun intended) with bullies.  Punch or bob and weave...or sidestep

...or make them laugh if possible  - whatever one seemed most effective. 

 

As far as in the classroom - you caught me by surprise.   I sort of thought teachers 

were trained to watch for that nonsense and shut it off.   OBVIOUSLY I have not

been IN a classroom or school for a very long time. 

 

von 

 

 

What powers do you imagine a teacher has, to enforce discipline or anything else?  Shut it off?  With what?  My magic wand?  Maybe you think I can sprinkle the little darlings with angel dust?  

 

Not so little.  I still remember the fifth grade boy who, in smiling playfulness, walked over and picked me up.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[VonNoble]

On 10/5/2017 at 5:54 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

What powers do you imagine a teacher has, to enforce discipline or anything else?  Shut it off?  With what?  My magic wand?  Maybe you think I can sprinkle the little darlings with angel dust?  

 

Not so little.  I still remember the fifth grade boy who, in smiling playfulness, walked over and picked me up.

 

 

 

Perhaps not so much imagination as ignorance of reality. 

Naturally my age is showing here.

 

Okay - now I will ask rather than assume....how is discipline handled in school?

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

Perhaps not so much imagination as ignorance of reality. 

Naturally my age is showing here.

 

Okay - now I will ask rather than assume....how is discipline handled in school?

 

von

 

 

Badly.  One day, two of my boys got into a fight with each other.  They ignored me when I ordered them to separate, so I got between them and pushed.  One of them ran down the hall to my supervisor.  Who was in trouble?  Me.  She ripped me a new one in front of the class.

 

If I had done nothing and one of them had gotten hurt -- who would have been responsible?  Me.  I would have been up on different charges, regarding neglect of duty.

 

Depending on which failure I'm responsible for; I either do too much too impose discipline, or not enough.

 

Teaching is not a difficult job.  It's impossible.  There is limitless responsibility and no authority.  The Principal is not a friend.  The Parent's Association is watching.  Various other entities and groups -- district and regional level -- are also watching.  Like vultures.  

 

I didn't even mention the lectures I got, from idiot know-it-alls.    Not actually important, but really irritating.  

 

It took me three years to go into total burnout.  I was never diagnosed with PTSD, but I'm sure I had it.  

 

To all those wonderful people, who think teachers have it so great -- FREAKING TRY IT!

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[VonNoble]

Certainly it is understandable why you would not choose to stay in that environment.

 

It is pretty tough to feel valued, relaxed or worth too much if you skew towards 

100% responsibility and 0% authority. 

 

So now for a practical question - and I fear the answer - how do kids who are getting

knocked around at home - get any help?   I know I have seen line item budget info detailing

having school counselors and psychologists on the grade school payroll.....how does that

work?  The teachers/principal refers them?  And seriously what do you do with an out of 

control kid.....it seems highly likely in the scenario described you might have to hold one 

down to keep him from hurting himself or others - what is the protocol for these things?

 

Is it any wonder a whole bunch of "Johnny's" are having trouble learning to read?

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

27 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

Certainly it is understandable why you would not choose to stay in that environment.

 

It is pretty tough to feel valued, relaxed or worth too much if you skew towards 

100% responsibility and 0% authority. 

 

So now for a practical question - and I fear the answer - how do kids who are getting

knocked around at home - get any help?   I know I have seen line item budget info detailing

having school counselors and psychologists on the grade school payroll.....how does that

work?  The teachers/principal refers them?  And seriously what do you do with an out of 

control kid.....it seems highly likely in the scenario described you might have to hold one 

down to keep him from hurting himself or others - what is the protocol for these things?

 

Is it any wonder a whole bunch of "Johnny's" are having trouble learning to read?

 

von

 

 

I don't know what the current reporting procedures are.  When I was teaching, back in the mid eighties, I was required to report.  I don't know what the results were.  It never actually came up.

 

One day, when I was subbing in District 4, I was confronted with an out of control class.  I reported to the Principal.  I remember because he was Mr. Rodgers.  Mr. Rodgers told me that if I couldn't control my class, I should clock out.  I took him at his word.  I clocked out.  It cost me a days pay and I had no regrets.  I was never asked back.  I don't know if anybody else was told to clock out if they couldn't manage their class.  One of my better moments.  Worthy of Gandhi.  

Edited October 8, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Badly.  One day, two of my boys got into a fight with each other.  They ignored me when I ordered them to separate, so I got between them and pushed.  One of them ran down the hall to my supervisor.  Who was in trouble?  Me.  She ripped me a new one in front of the class.

 

If I had done nothing and one of them had gotten hurt -- who would have been responsible?  Me.  I would have been up on different charges, regarding neglect of duty.

 

Depending on which failure I'm responsible for; I either do too much too impose discipline, or not enough.

 

 

 

That's a big problem today, any degree of corporal punishment dished out for any reason can leave a teacher or parent liable. So at the risk of being sued or even brought up on criminal assault charges, most adults are encouraged to let the little darlings do whatever they want. Discipline that was once enforced with a ping pong paddle is a thing of the past. We saw the results in the Baltimore riot, where the police stood by and were content to watch  the 'protestors' throw bricks and molotov cocktails into buildings and loot the businesses, no doubt done by adults who's parents refused to issue disciplinary action on them as children? jmo   

 

I believe that indoctrinating children into various hate groups or extreme religious cults is even more dangerous. Children are very impressionable and tend to believe whatever they're taught, so undoing what's been planted in their minds can be difficult. I believe you teach them the basics; right from wrong, politeness and respect, reliable and dependable, value of money, good work ethics, etc. Then when they come of age, they can make-up their own minds, but will have a good basic moral foundation and some necessary principles to stand on.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Dan56

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

That's a big problem today, any degree of corporal punishment dished out for any reason can leave a teacher or parent liable. So at the risk of being sued or even brought up on criminal assault charges, most adults are encouraged to let the little darlings do whatever they want. Discipline that was once enforced with a ping pong paddle is a thing of the past. We saw the results in the Baltimore riot, where the police stood by and were content to watch  the 'protestors' throw brinks and molotov cocktails into buildings and loot the businesses, no doubt done by adults who's parents refused to issue disciplinary action on them as children? jmo   

 

I believe that indoctrinating children into various hate groups or extreme religious cults is even more dangerous. Children are very impressionable and tend to believe whatever they're taught, so undoing what's been planted in their minds can be difficult. I believe you teach them the basics; right from wrong, politeness and respect, reliable and dependable, value of money, good work ethics, etc. Then when they come of age, they can make-up their own minds, but will have a good basic moral foundation and some necessary principles to stand on.

 

 

There were some cultish things in the schools where I was a teacher.  In the morning, there was the Pledge of Allegiance.  To my shame, I sometimes conducted these activities.  It was required of me.

 

October through December, a lot of classrooms had Nativity scenes.  They were illegal, but I turned a blind eye.  It was my duty as a citizen to intervene -- and I didn't care enough to get into it.

 

The only other cultish stuff I saw was Christmas related.  Santa and Frosty the Snowman and Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer and such.  I decided that fighting with the local culture, was not something that I was responsible for.

 

I did speak with a few Science teachers, who were under pressure to teach Creationism -- and not teach evolution.  

[cuchulain]

in my former town a teacher hit the news because they had a severe problem student who would hurt themselves and the teacher made a special padded room to lock the kid in, then left the kid in for several hours. the cause is understandable but still that particular behavior is not acceptable for a teacher, who definitely needs to be given a better option.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

37 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

in my former town a teacher hit the news because they had a severe problem student who would hurt themselves and the teacher made a special padded room to lock the kid in, then left the kid in for several hours. the cause is understandable but still that particular behavior is not acceptable for a teacher, who definitely needs to be given a better option.

 

 

About a year ago, there was a major scandal here in New York City.  The police were called in to deal with an out of control 4th grader.  The police were as ill equipped to deal with the student as the teachers.  So they put her in cuffs.  Then the poop hit the media.  All about the poor little girl, cuffed by the brutal police.

 

If a trained NYC cop doesn't know what to do -- what do they expect from the teaching staff?