Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

[mererdog]

On 10/11/2017 at 1:06 PM, cuchulain said:

The hypocrisy is what bothers me about it as well.  Christians will get someone to be the figurehead and tell everyone that it's a secular display.  But when they look in the mirror at night, there is no way they aren't telling themselves their winning one for God.  

When I said that atheism exists as a response to theism, no one seemed to want to agree. Yet a topic about different names for atheists becomes a laundry list of complaints about theists.....

Edited October 13, 2017 by mererdog

[Pete]

That has to be true . If everyone was atheists then we would not need to use the term of distingion. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

That has to be true . If everyone was atheists then we would not need to use the term of distingion. 

 

 

A meatless world would not have a word for vegetarians.

 

Atheists have the same need, to say what they don't want on their spiritual plate.  

[Pete]

If no one ever  believed in gods then that would be the norm and the need  to call someone atheist would not arise. It has arisen because some do believe in gods or spirits.hence the need to distinguish. 

[mererdog]

10 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

.Atheists have the same need, to say what they don't want on their spiritual plate.  

Many atheists actually do want it on their plate. I have personally known two atheists who told me they regularly pray to a God they hope is real- but who they don't actually believe in. I have known a ton of atheists who expressed a sort of wistful jealousy of theism, when discussing things like death anxiety. And I know a lot of athiest who regularly attend religious services, and more than a few who study religious texts as a hobby.

Not all who wander are lost, and not all who stay put are home.

Edited October 14, 2017 by mererdog

[mererdog]

There are basically  three kinds of vegetarians.

The most socially prominent are the culture warriors who want everyone to know the evils of eating meat and who will regularly attack their chosen enemies, "meat industry" and "meat culture."

 

More common are the vegetarians who think everyone should stop eating meat, but for their own good. They are quick to tell you how much better off you would be by being more like them. What works for them will work for anybody, after all.

 

The third type is best summed up with the phrase "Eat and let eat." These people often made no conscious decision to be vegetarian, either simply sticking with the food they grew up with, or avoiding tastes they don't like. 

 

Of the three groups, the first seems to have the least amount of fun, the fewest friends, and the least amount of joy. So I try not to be that guy.

Edited October 14, 2017 by mererdog

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

29 minutes ago, mererdog said:

There are basically  three kinds of vegetarians.

The most socially prominent are the culture warriors who want everyone to know the evils of eating meat and who will regularly attack their chosen enemies, "meat industry" and "meat culture."

 

More common are the vegetarians who think everyone should stop eating meat, but for their own good. They are quick to tell you how much better off you would be by being more like them. What works for them will work for anybody, after all.

 

The third type is best summed up with the phrase "Eat and let eat." These people often made no conscious decision to be vegetarian, either simply sticking with the food they grew up with, or avoiding tastes they don't like. 

 

Of the three groups, the first seems to have the least amount of fun, the fewest friends, and the least amount of joy. So I try not to be that guy.

 

 

If you really want to go there:

 

There are several varieties of evangelical cooks.  They feel entitled to force their meat into everybody's mouth -- and then make them swallow.  

 

How strange.  People are often resentful of their efforts.  It turns out that even people who enjoy meat, don't like it forced on them.

 

[mererdog]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It turns out that even people who enjoy meat, don't like it forced on them.

Militant meat eaters use militant vegetarians to justify their militance. Militant vegetarians use militant meat eaters to justify their militance. Neither seems like a good way to live. The constant focus on negativity seems unhealthy. It ends up like a sort of social hypochondria where nothing can be enjoyed because everything is viewed as a symptom of the disease (real or imagined) they are fixated on.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, mererdog said:

Militant meat eaters use militant vegetarians to justify their militance. Militant vegetarians use militant meat eaters to justify their militance. Neither seems like a good way to live. The constant focus on negativity seems unhealthy. It ends up like a sort of social hypochondria where nothing can be enjoyed because everything is viewed as a symptom of the disease (real or imagined) they are fixated on.

 

What are you saying?  That it's not legitimate to take a stand on principle?  There are times when your intellectual purity is hard to endure.

[cuchulain]

4 hours ago, mererdog said:

Militant meat eaters use militant vegetarians to justify their militance. Militant vegetarians use militant meat eaters to justify their militance. Neither seems like a good way to live. The constant focus on negativity seems unhealthy. It ends up like a sort of social hypochondria where nothing can be enjoyed because everything is viewed as a symptom of the disease (real or imagined) they are fixated on.

i think people should decide for themselves rather than rebel against something.  why justify a position with someone else's?

[mererdog]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

why justify a position with someone else's?

Most people tend to think in comparative terms. It isnt how much you make, its how much you make compared to the other guys, you know? That mindset tells us it's no use being right unless someone else is wrong, and it is both a very pervasive and very persuasive mindset.

[cuchulain]

I can certainly understand that mindset as I used to have that going, but I think lately I have been trying to think things through independently, that is decide if I think it is right or wrong, if I think I have enough money or property, and so forth.  In thinking this way, it makes me question how I ever got along worrying about other people so much of the time before.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i think people should decide for themselves rather than rebel against something.  why justify a position with someone else's?

 

 

I think we both have decided.  There is no reason to take God belief seriously.  This has nothing to do with rebellion.  Only coming to terms with reality.  Like adults.  

 

Religion does offer something to rebel against.  Then again, religion is not God.  A distinction worth making.

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mererdog]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

What are you saying?  That it's not legitimate to take a stand on principle?

No. I'm saying that I want to be happy. I am saying that a life spent focused on what I don't like is not a recipe for happiness.

There is a difference, you see, between taking a stand and complaining. There is a difference between taking a stand and obsessing. There is a difference between taking a stand and attacking. There is a difference between taking a stand and declaring war.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

In the process of discovering what is true -- it is helpful to recognize the false.  This is not complaining.  This is not obsessing.  This is not attacking.  This is integrity.  

 

 

 

[mererdog]

14 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

In thinking this way, it makes me question how I ever got along worrying about other people so much of the time before.

I struggle with it, personally. Its a bad habit I've been trying to ditch for thirty years, but just keeps cropping back up. I see someone with more, and suddenly I feel like I have less. My contentment shattered by my stupidity. It is annoying. I sincerely hope you manage it better.

[mererdog]

13 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

it is helpful to recognize the false. 

Well, sure. I think it is what we do after we recognise it that matters. Do we fail to keep things related to it in perspective? Do we keep bringing it up? Do we inject it into discussions that have nothing to do with it? Do we get emotionally overwrought when we think about it? Do we lose sleep over it? Do we lose friends and family over it? Do we let it consume us?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

23 minutes ago, mererdog said:

Well, sure. I think it is what we do after we recognise it that matters. Do we fail to keep things related to it in perspective? Do we keep bringing it up? Do we inject it into discussions that have nothing to do with it? Do we get emotionally overwrought when we think about it? Do we lose sleep over it? Do we lose friends and family over it? Do we let it consume us?

 

My Atheism comes up on this board for obvious reasons.  Most of the people in my social circle, don't know anything at all about my Atheism.  Of those few who do, the subject seldom comes up.  When the subject of religion does come up, I deal with it in my own honest way.  

 

Are you under the impression that I go around foaming?  I have more urgent matters at hand.  

 

There is one proviso.  When the pious ask me about my beliefs -- and I answer truthfully -- sometimes they get hot.  Their issue.  Not mine.  

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mererdog]

13 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

My Atheism comes up on this board for obvious reasons.

So, do you see any important difference between bringing up your own atheism and bringing up the Christianity of others?

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Are you under the impression that I go around foaming?

 

 

Since you ask, I try not to make assumptions about people based solely on what they put online, but you do often give the impression that you are holding tightly to a large grudge. Well, grudges, to be accurate. But my words were meant as a warning, not an accusation. Obsession is not usually an instantaneous sort of thing, but rather something people slowly slide into without realizing it is happening. Like any addiction, what starts out as a little fun can become a coping mechanism can become self-destruction.

A song I like puts it well...

"Love versus hate/ Worst enemies

The one that survives is the one that I feed"

Edited October 15, 2017 by mererdog

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, mererdog said:

1.  So, do you see any important difference between bringing up your own atheism and bringing up the Christianity of others?

 

Are you under the impression that I go around foaming?

 

 

Since you ask, I try not to make assumptions about people based solely on what they put online,    2.   but you do often give the impression that you are holding tightly to a large grudge. Well, grudges, to be accurate. But my words were meant as a warning, not an accusation.    3.  Obsession is not usually an instantaneous sort of thing, but rather something people slowly slide into without realizing it is happening.     4.  Like any addiction, what starts out as a little fun can become a coping mechanism can become self-destruction.

A song I like puts it well...

"Love versus hate/ Worst enemies

The one that survives is the one that I feed"

 

1.  This board is not Animal Farm.  None are more equal than others.  In this place, I speak my mind.

 

2.  Grudges?  An odd choice of words.  I prefer to say that I have issues.  There is nothing invisible about them.  I see them clearly.

 

3.  Obsessions?  I have to be me -- as Frank Sinatra said in his song.  I'm 64.  My views and convictions formed over time.  Of course, I know it's happening.  You think I have no self awareness?

 

4.  Addiction?  To what?  Reality?  I think of it as growing up.  What's really destructive is a life without integrity -- and being afraid to speak up, when fools try to change me for the worse.

 

There are other things in my life.  Things other than Atheism.  I belong to a Star Trek fan club.  I take classes in qi gong and tai chi -- which really help with my arthritis.  I follow politics and listen to music and lectures on physics.  I donate blood.  I'm the senior editor for my senior center's newsletter.   I take care of my 97 year old mother.  I deal with my financial grief.  I cope with fatigue.  Then again, I live in a religious culture.  Most of the time, I manage to ignore it.  Now and then, I get a lung full of methane and I can't ignore it.  That is the truth of things.  My truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl