The Noble Qur'an, Hadith, and other matters.

[Diego_008]

Just now, Brother Kaman said:

I see high entertainment has returned to the forum.

Well, I am not sure "high entertainment" applies as a descriptor, but it certainly has been interesting.

[VonNoble]

On 8/23/2017 at 8:30 PM, Diego_008 said:

I am reviewing the Noble Qur'an and Sahi al-Bukhari, as well as Riyad us Saliheen. And a biography of the Prophet Muhammad. I have read the Qur'an three times, in various translations, and have learned small parts of it in Arabic.

 

What are people's basic perspectives on the Qur'anic text? What about the other documents I mentioned? Thoughts?

 

Hello Diego_008,

Since credential presentation seems to be jaunting along in this thread.  I will oblige but it is highly unusual. 

 

Too, all of the precision and sparing has certainly sidetracked the original purpose of your post. 

Also unusual, but it is your thread so I'll just loop things back to the point of origin. 

 

Like you - I have a college degree plus a bit more.   Like you - I have studied three languages beyond my native tongue.

 I do not claim mastery in any of them - but certainly I get by when pressed to do so - in all of them.

  I appreciate learning and listening.   I find darn near every person I have ever met teaches me something.

  I also did okay with book learning as well.   I graduated with a boatload of honors from college and have been

offered additional educational opportunities by way of scholarships.  I declined that opportunity.  

 But they sure made me feel good offering it! 

 

Early on - I was a slow reader.  I was a very poor student until the fifth grade.  When I finally got glasses.

 Gee, what a difference that made in my life.   Once I got the knack of reading - well books are always

stacked around me.  Like people, most books have taught me much.

 

To the point of your topic at hand -  I have attempted to read the Qur'an on two separate occasions.

 I have a copy sitting on my desk a the moment.  I studied once with a classmate while earning my

first undergraduate degree.   I studied it the second time on my own.  I HAVE read the book in that

I turned the pages and understood the words.  I did not however understand the meaning in proper context.  

 

Therefore, I have no perspective to offer.   Which is interesting in a fashion.

  Almost always after one or two tries I can glean some conclusions.  

I admit I really didn't "get" the book at all.   I have decided to put it aside and try again at a later date.

 I am sure there is much wisdom in it.   I see followers of that faith with holy and consistent devotion.

   I find those who live the faith to consistent in behavior with devotees of other religions.

 They share many admirable traits.  They are often assets to their community at large.

   I also see some who claim to be followers that don't seem to get the message any better than I did.  

 

It was easier for me to "get" the Christian bible....I don't ascribe to it as a guide for life but I at least

feel as if I could discuss it reasonably (not sure that would imply logically in the context of your postings)

- but certainly I could step up in the area of reasonable.   

 

 I will confess I have never taken a logic course.  I have never taken a philosophy course.

 And after reading through the pages of the thread to this point - it would seem my observations

might not have value without that foundation in this thread in spite of education.  

 

In addition to formal education I have learned a great deal from others.  

Not necessarily as educated as myself but by golly they were as intelligent, (often more so)

...and they were insightful and experienced.  They often possessed talents I lack.  

I am grateful to them for helping me to see more clearly.  Children are often very good teachers.  

 

In life, I have found justice at times is not fair.  I have found wisdom often comes without proof.

 I have found people respond emotionally (often correctly) on impulse and kindness and love at least

as often as they win with logic and facts.   I am quite certain in life being right is NOT enough.

 repeat:  Being right is NOT enough. 

 

Certainly, no one need agree with any of that. 

My successes in life are decent in number. 

My blessings without measure.

My gratitude is pretty much a second skin. 

 

My greatest evidence of success is contentment and gratitude.

 

I am sure in time, in the pages of the Qur'an I will also find nuggets to assist me to improve. 

I suspect strongly it is not the book that might be lacking.  I suspect it is my own 

readiness level that is at fault.   I find I tend to "get things" when I am ready.   

 

I might be willing...and certainly I am able to master a  passable grasp of the language

- but perhaps I am simply not in the right place to be fully ready.   Learning can be like that. 

It is my understanding from all faiths that God (not man) awards faith in God's time.

Humans are not able to give that gift.  When I am ready - I will understand more and better 

 

Thank you for allowing all of us to participate. 

I might suggest if you are interested in more than a conversational exchange you note

that on the original post. There are some powerfully learned people in this Forum and 

they too might enjoy a formal debate.    There is a long-standing assumption that unless

noted at the outset - anyone is welcome to participate.  We sort of take people "as is"

in this forum.    We are fairly proud of our inclusion of all.   

 

Over the many years I have visited this site - it seems the vast majority of people posting

offer what they can to the best of their ability, take what they can that helps

them.....and always - most offer kindness.    BY FAR they offer kindness.  Forgiveness too.

Giving of their best self is pretty much a staple.  

 

Again, welcome.  Thanks for allowing us to learn from you.

von

 

 

[Pastor Dave]

4 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

Actually, no. Good try. A fire chief claiming he knows how to fight fire is not committing such a fallacy. The same thing holds here. 

 

I am hardly going to display my name and credentials over the Internet, as I am not an idiot. I am a Professor, and a writer, to answer your question. In fact, I am writing now. 

 

I never claimed to be smarter than anyone. To each their gifts. I do not care what a person believes. It is still a free country, at least in that regard. But if someone says that there are two different kinds of logic, both acceptable, I shall call them out on such nonsense. If one does not want to be called out, avoid outlandish statements, and you will not be.

Actually yes. I have called your expertise into question and you have provided no proof of your said expertise. You can tell me you're the fire chief all day long but until I see a badge and an ID stating you are a fire chief you have no more standing as an expert than Joe Schmoe.

 

If you are a part of academia you would know that, when I asked if you were published I wasn't referring to a post on a forum.

 

 

[Pastor Dave]

51 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

.....

In addition to formal education I have learned a great deal from others.  

Not necessarily as educated as myself but by golly they were as intelligent, (often more so)

...and they were insightful and experienced.  They often possessed talents I lack.  

I am grateful to them for helping me to see more clearly.  Children are often very good teachers.  

....

I might suggest if you are interested in more than a conversational exchange you note

that on the original post. There are some powerfully learned people in this Forum and 

they too might enjoy a formal debate.    There is a long-standing assumption that unless

noted at the outset - anyone is welcome to participate.  We sort of take people "as is"

in this forum.    We are fairly proud of our inclusion of all.   

 

Over the many years I have visited this site - it seems the vast majority of people posting

offer what they can to the best of their ability, take what they can that helps

them.....and always - most offer kindness.    BY FAR they offer kindness.  Forgiveness too.

Giving of their best self is pretty much a staple.  

 

Again, welcome.  Thanks for allowing us to learn from you.

von

 

 

[Diego_008]

59 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

 

Hello Diego_008,

Since credential presentation seems to be jaunting along in this thread.  I will oblige but it is highly unusual. 

 

Too, all of the precision and sparing has certainly sidetracked the original purpose of your post. 

Also unusual, but it is your thread so I'll just loop things back to the point of origin. 

 

Like you - I have a college degree plus a bit more.   Like you - I have studied three languages beyond my native tongue.

 I do not claim mastery in any of them - but certainly I get by when pressed to do so - in all of them.

  I appreciate learning and listening.   I find darn near every person I have ever met teaches me something.

  I also did okay with book learning as well.   I graduated with a boatload of honors from college and have been

offered additional educational opportunities by way of scholarships.  I declined that opportunity.  

 But they sure made me feel good offering it! 

 

Early on - I was a slow reader.  I was a very poor student until the fifth grade.  When I finally got glasses.

 Gee, what a difference that made in my life.   Once I got the knack of reading - well books are always

stacked around me.  Like people, most books have taught me much.

 

To the point of your topic at hand -  I have attempted to read the Qur'an on two separate occasions.

 I have a copy sitting on my desk a the moment.  I studied once with a classmate while earning my

first undergraduate degree.   I studied it the second time on my own.  I HAVE read the book in that

I turned the pages and understood the words.  I did not however understand the meaning in proper context.  

 

Therefore, I have no perspective to offer.   Which is interesting in a fashion.

  Almost always after one or two tries I can glean some conclusions.  

I admit I really didn't "get" the book at all.   I have decided to put it aside and try again at a later date.

 I am sure there is much wisdom in it.   I see followers of that faith with holy and consistent devotion.

   I find those who live the faith to consistent in behavior with devotees of other religions.

 They share many admirable traits.  They are often assets to their community at large.

   I also see some who claim to be followers that don't seem to get the message any better than I did.  

 

It was easier for me to "get" the Christian bible....I don't ascribe to it as a guide for life but I at least

feel as if I could discuss it reasonably (not sure that would imply logically in the context of your postings)

- but certainly I could step up in the area of reasonable.   

 

 I will confess I have never taken a logic course.  I have never taken a philosophy course.

 And after reading through the pages of the thread to this point - it would seem my observations

might not have value without that foundation in this thread in spite of education.  

 

In addition to formal education I have learned a great deal from others.  

Not necessarily as educated as myself but by golly they were as intelligent, (often more so)

...and they were insightful and experienced.  They often possessed talents I lack.  

I am grateful to them for helping me to see more clearly.  Children are often very good teachers.  

 

In life, I have found justice at times is not fair.  I have found wisdom often comes without proof.

 I have found people respond emotionally (often correctly) on impulse and kindness and love at least

as often as they win with logic and facts.   I am quite certain in life being right is NOT enough.

 repeat:  Being right is NOT enough. 

 

Certainly, no one need agree with any of that. 

My successes in life are decent in number. 

My blessings without measure.

My gratitude is pretty much a second skin. 

 

My greatest evidence of success is contentment and gratitude.

 

I am sure in time, in the pages of the Qur'an I will also find nuggets to assist me to improve. 

I suspect strongly it is not the book that might be lacking.  I suspect it is my own 

readiness level that is at fault.   I find I tend to "get things" when I am ready.   

 

I might be willing...and certainly I am able to master a  passable grasp of the language

- but perhaps I am simply not in the right place to be fully ready.   Learning can be like that. 

It is my understanding from all faiths that God (not man) awards faith in God's time.

Humans are not able to give that gift.  When I am ready - I will understand more and better 

 

Thank you for allowing all of us to participate. 

I might suggest if you are interested in more than a conversational exchange you note

that on the original post. There are some powerfully learned people in this Forum and 

they too might enjoy a formal debate.    There is a long-standing assumption that unless

noted at the outset - anyone is welcome to participate.  We sort of take people "as is"

in this forum.    We are fairly proud of our inclusion of all.   

 

Over the many years I have visited this site - it seems the vast majority of people posting

offer what they can to the best of their ability, take what they can that helps

them.....and always - most offer kindness.    BY FAR they offer kindness.  Forgiveness too.

Giving of their best self is pretty much a staple.  

 

Again, welcome.  Thanks for allowing us to learn from you.

von

 

 

Greetings:

 

You, my brother, are making some sense! This, I can appreciate. As far as languages go, I am fluent in two (my native English and my very nearly native Spanish), I can curse extremely well in Yiddish, I have some decent knowledge (including but not limited to cursing) of one of the many constructed languages, and can make my tortured way, horribly slowly and with much agony, through a Greek Testament.

 

I have three degrees, one of which simply superceded one of tge others, as it is advanced. I too, graduated college with honours aplenty. I was honoured in both my degree programmes, and would have qualified for scholarships had I continued in Philosophy, but I chose to continue in History, in which I was honoured, but not to the same level. Ergo, though I was accepted easily to continue my studies, I think I only got a few scholarships, whereas had I continued in Philosophy, life would have been easier.

 

Re: the Noble Qur'an, I don't blame you for missing much of it. Understanding it without first knowing the History of Arabia and surrounding lands would be difficult. Even WITH that knowledge, the text is often quite cryptic. UNlike the Bible, it does not follow a particular pattern. The Surahs (Chapters, although the word "Surah" is used in Arabic only to describe the divisions of the Qur'an, and another word is used for other books; hence, most scholars retain the Arabic term) are not placed in order of their revelation by date. In fact, some of the verses of the longer Surahs were received at different times than others! In general, the order is longest to shortest, with the exception of Surah 1, which is an opening prayer, sometimes compared to the Lord's Prayer in terms of its importance.

 

With this unusual structure, understanding the Qur'an almost REQUIRES a person to know the Prophet Muhammad's personal history as well as the general history of Arabia. There are quite a few good biographies of the man out there, by both Muslims and non-Muslims. I have "The Sealed Nectar: Biography of the Noble Prophet". It is written by a Muslim, and is supposed to be one of the best out there. I have not yet begun reading it, so I cannot state that from personal knowledge. I have two others, one by an Ahmadiyah Muslim (they are commonly regarded as heretics by orthodox Muslims, particularly in Saudi Arabia and in their native Pakistan), which I have read, and I can say is good, and one by a non-Muslim which is decent, albeit very old (1936, if memory serves).

 

If you DO intend to reread the Qur'an, might I suggest Abdullah Yusuf Ali's ttanslation with Commentary?  It is well regarded, and tends to steer clear from polemics. Mohammed Muhsin Khan's is good, but gets a bit polemical.

 

Well, I noticed two replies that came in, so I must get to them. I shall bid you fond adieu for the present. I look forward to hearing from you.

 

 

 

 

[Diego_008]

16 minutes ago, Pastor Dave said:

Actually yes. I have called your expertise into question and you have provided no proof of your said expertise. You can tell me you're the fire chief all day long but until I see a badge and an ID stating you are a fire chief you have no more standing as an expert than Joe Schmoe.

 

If you are a part of academia you would know that, when I asked if you were published I wasn't referring to a post on a forum.

 

 

This, of course, implies that you have no brain. I am NOT going to give out my name on the Internet! Whilst I do not think that you are a psychopath (lacking in sense yes; a psychopath, no), there are plenty of psychopaths out there. I already have indicated where I live. Giving out my name, when I have a wife and child to protect, would be the height of STUPID. I don't care if you challenge me or not. I am well aware of my skills, and the books that attest to said skills. You can question all you want. The more fool you.

[Diego_008]

29 minutes ago, Pastor Dave said:

Actually yes. I have called your expertise into question and you have provided no proof of your said expertise. You can tell me you're the fire chief all day long but until I see a badge and an ID stating you are a fire chief you have no more standing as an expert than Joe Schmoe.

 

If you are a part of academia you would know that, when I asked if you were published I wasn't referring to a post on a forum.

 

 

By the way, I was not referring to a post on a forum either. I am writing a graduate school textbook on the history of the Holy Roman Empire, and another book on Lutheran Liturgy and its translations into English in the last three centuries. The fact that YOU thought I was referring to writing Forum posts makes me wonder what is wrong with you, in all sincerity.

[cuchulain]

7 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

This, of course, implies that you have no brain. I am NOT going to give out my name on the Internet! Whilst I do not think that you are a psychopath (lacking in sense yes; a psychopath, no), there are plenty of psychopaths out there. I already have indicated where I live. Giving out my name, when I have a wife and child to protect, would be the height of STUPID. I don't care if you challenge me or not. I am well aware of my skills, and the books that attest to said skills. You can question all you want. The more fool you.

Fool for questioning?  Now how sounds the fool...

[Diego_008]

6 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Fool for questioning?  Now how sounds the fool...

Anyone who makes an illogical request more than once is indeed foolish, in my mind.

[Amulet]

The original post to this topic is the following:

On 8/23/2017 at 7:30 PM, Diego_008 said:

I am reviewing the Noble Qur'an and Sahi al-Bukhari, as well as Riyad us Saliheen. And a biography of the Prophet Muhammad. I have read the Qur'an three times, in various translations, and have learned small parts of it in Arabic.

 

What are people's basic perspectives on the Qur'anic text? What about the other documents I mentioned? Thoughts?

 

After review of the topic it is now locked.

 

My interpretation of the original post quoted above, is that the questions were presented to gain insight and perspective about the writings of a specific sacred text and other related publications.

The resulting discussion has been a whole lot of assertions coming from logic and ego. - To the degree that the tone is becoming increasingly unfriendly and escalating through different degrees of hostility and provocation.

 

Unfortunately all of that has superseded a real opportunity to be expanding knowledge and perspective about the belief system and the texts which are so misunderstood and misrepresented right now. There is such a wealth of knowledge available to share on the topic. I hope this can be remedied by having a genuine exchange that aims to enlighten...