levels of belief

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you all my sisters and brothers,

I believe it's time to have a beer.

I also believe that sometimes we forget that when we are talking matters of faith or lack of faith, we make the very great mistake to thinking we can prove the truth or falsehood of someone's deeply held beliefs in the same way we can prove 2+2=4.  All we can do is explain what we believe and why we believe it, then live out those beliefs as best we can.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli 

Yes.  It works for me.     

[AmberLF]

11 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you all my sisters and brothers,

I believe it's time to have a beer.

I also believe that sometimes we forget that when we are talking matters of faith or lack of faith, we make the very great mistake to thinking we can prove the truth or falsehood of someone's deeply held beliefs in the same way we can prove 2+2=4.  All we can do is explain what we believe and why we believe it, then live out those beliefs as best we can.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli 

Absolutely. Though I do have to say hypotheticals and deeper thinking right along with it isn't so bad. I mean as long as we don't  point fingers at anyone specific and keep it forefront that people are doing the best they can with what they have at any given moment... and that we all wobble in our beliefs or lack thereof... I think it's all ok.

[cuchulain]

On 4/18/2017 at 3:57 PM, AmberLF said:

I've talked to a few in a pagan meet up. Interestingly enough one doesn't have to be directly tied to the other.

I don't say that it couldn't be so, mind.  But, an alternative theory could be that the Atheists at the pagan meet up were trying to fit in a little better and so simply admitted to the possibility of such.  Probably sounds like nit picking, and it might be   I used to go to the pagan gatherings where I was from, in Southern Illinois, back when I was  a Druid.  I know there are a lot of differences between pagans, and I did know some Atheists who attended the pagan gatherings.  There are differences between people who call themselves Wiccan, Druid, Asatru, whatever else can be named that I can think of.  So it wouldn't shock me if there were Atheists who believed in some after life.  Just strikes me as strange in relation to my own concept of Atheism.  

[AmberLF]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

I don't say that it couldn't be so, mind.  But, an alternative theory could be that the Atheists at the pagan meet up were trying to fit in a little better and so simply admitted to the possibility of such.  Probably sounds like nit picking, and it might be   I used to go to the pagan gatherings where I was from, in Southern Illinois, back when I was  a Druid.  I know there are a lot of differences between pagans, and I did know some Atheists who attended the pagan gatherings.  There are differences between people who call themselves Wiccan, Druid, Asatru, whatever else can be named that I can think of.  So it wouldn't shock me if there were Atheists who believed in some after life.  Just strikes me as strange in relation to my own concept of Atheism.  

Gotcha. I guess that depends greatly on if you think God is intrinsically interwoven into such things. If one can disconnect the idea that a god created this world then why not disconnect the idea that a god has anything to do with an afterlife, that it could be an unseen realm connected to this earth and life on it?  To me, that can be entirely possible. There have been plenty of case studies and experiments that support there is something along those lines regardless of how it got there. That isn't to say anyone must accept any evidence as absolute or that the evidence might be misinterpreted. But it has been and in some places still is important enough to put formal, scientific study to it. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by AmberLF

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, AmberLF said:

Gotcha. I guess that depends greatly on if you think God is intrinsically interwoven into such things. If one can disconnect the idea that a god created this world then why not disconnect the idea that a god has anything to do with an afterlife, that it could be an unseen realm connected to this earth and life on it?  To me, that can be entirely possible. There have been plenty of case studies and experiments that support there is something along those lines regardless of how it got there. That isn't to say anyone must accept any evidence as absolute or that the evidence might be misinterpreted. But it has been and in some places still is important enough to put formal, scientific study to it. 

It depends on what we mean by God.  You seem to be talking about the God of Pantheism.  Different from the God of Monotheism.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 4/18/2017 at 9:47 AM, mererdog said:

And, oddly enough, the same is true of many Jews. 

Yes.  Between Rabbinic ideology and the real world, there is Jewish Atheism -- expressed as humor.

1.  "There is no God and we are his people."

Also expressed as hostility.

2.  "May you lose your faith and marry a pious woman!"

 

[cuchulain]

4 hours ago, AmberLF said:

Gotcha. I guess that depends greatly on if you think God is intrinsically interwoven into such things. If one can disconnect the idea that a god created this world then why not disconnect the idea that a god has anything to do with an afterlife, that it could be an unseen realm connected to this earth and life on it?  To me, that can be entirely possible. There have been plenty of case studies and experiments that support there is something along those lines regardless of how it got there. That isn't to say anyone must accept any evidence as absolute or that the evidence might be misinterpreted. But it has been and in some places still is important enough to put formal, scientific study to it. 

i understand that.  from my perspective, i am skeptical of "supernatural" claims, for lack of a better word. i'm not Christian because i've not seen good evidence for god. same with the afterlife claim.  i want to see a study of out of body experiences where they put a piece of paper on a cabinet with 4 random numbers and ask people with the claim to recite the digits, just to see the stats.  but that would offend the believers, if the evidence came against them. low cost study that could be done easily too.

[AmberLF]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It depends on what we mean by God.  You seem to be talking about the God of Pantheism.  Different from the God of Monotheism.

Honestly I don't see it that differently. Even in Pantheism there are creation gods and gods that deal with death and the afterlife. I suppose maybe I see it as all the same, just different viewpoints to it. 

 

[AmberLF]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i understand that.  from my perspective, i am skeptical of "supernatural" claims, for lack of a better word. i'm not Christian because i've not seen good evidence for god. same with the afterlife claim.  i want to see a study of out of body experiences where they put a piece of paper on a cabinet with 4 random numbers and ask people with the claim to recite the digits, just to see the stats.  but that would offend the believers, if the evidence came against them. low cost study that could be done easily too.

They have done bi-location studies. If I understand right, the Rhine Institute in Durham NC still does studies in various supernatural studies. I do believe they also have a website I believe. I haven't checked in on them in some time.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, AmberLF said:

Honestly I don't see it that differently. Even in Pantheism there are creation gods and gods that deal with death and the afterlife. I suppose maybe I see it as all the same, just different viewpoints to it. 

 

Pantheism conflates God with Nature.  God is not a personal entity but something much more abstract.

Monotheism is largely about Scripture and Revelation.  God is personal.  The connection is personal.  The codes of conduct are Commands.

[Rev. Calli]

14 hours ago, AmberLF said:

Absolutely. Though I do have to say hypotheticals and deeper thinking right along with it isn't so bad. I mean as long as we don't  point fingers at anyone specific and keep it forefront that people are doing the best they can with what they have at any given moment... and that we all wobble in our beliefs or lack thereof... I think it's all ok.

 

Greetings to you my sister,

In my own ministry, I often like to say that faith without reasoning, without thinking, is not faith, but superstition.  Faith ( or beliefs if you will) really are things we should struggle with, so that we understand why we feel the way we do.  But we always have to remember that others may not see things the same way we do, and so we should respect their views, even if we don't agree.  Their beliefs are their beliefs.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[AmberLF]

16 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my sister,

In my own ministry, I often like to say that faith without reasoning, without thinking, is not faith, but superstition.  Faith ( or beliefs if you will) really are things we should struggle with, so that we understand why we feel the way we do.  But we always have to remember that others may not see things the same way we do, and so we should respect their views, even if we don't agree.  Their beliefs are their beliefs.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

Agreed. Is discussing the differences considered disrespectful? Is disagreeing and explaining why considered disrespectful? Should questioning just not happen at all in case someone might take offence even when offence is not meant? Guess I'm trying to figure out where those lines are here as there are places that encourage the questioning and debating and others get angry the very idea.

[cuchulain]

3 hours ago, AmberLF said:

Agreed. Is discussing the differences considered disrespectful? Is disagreeing and explaining why considered disrespectful? Should questioning just not happen at all in case someone might take offence even when offence is not meant? Guess I'm trying to figure out where those lines are here as there are places that encourage the questioning and debating and others get angry the very idea.

We had a pretty regular member for a while who was flat out calling other members stupid.  He got warned for that.  

So far as most discussions go here, as long as you question the belief, ask about specific points, and try to be respectful, I think you'll do fine.  There is nothing wrong with calling on someone in a debate to reconsider their position, especially if you have evidence why such should be reconsidered.  As in all discussions, some people get offended by the very idea that they should be questioned.  I remember one in particular, Child of God.  He made some bold claims about being an emissary of God, and God giving him an inside scoop and such.  Specifically, he talked to Angels.  Not those exact words...but I paraphrase.  I told him that if he could get one of those angels to tell him the exact bible phrase I wrote down randomly, that I would consider his position.  Frustrated him something fierce. 

Then you have members who seem to take almost any kind of abuse thrown their way with good grace.  I haven't seen them around lately, which isn't uncommon.  Members pop up for a while, then take a break from the headaches we all cause each other, then come back.

The rules of service are pretty fair, though.  No personal attacks.  That's fairly simple.  Just don't name call, or tell people they have no brain, or something like that.  I can say, for example, that I personally find Christianity abhorrent and a complete waste of resources.  That's an example, and not necessarily true, by the way, but I can say that.  So long as I don't tell someone they are abhorrent and a complete waste of resources.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, AmberLF said:

Agreed. Is discussing the differences considered disrespectful? Is disagreeing and explaining why considered disrespectful? Should questioning just not happen at all in case someone might take offence even when offence is not meant? Guess I'm trying to figure out where those lines are here as there are places that encourage the questioning and debating and others get angry the very idea.

We do ask each other questions.  The better to understand each other.  Generally, the spirit behind a question is what makes it friendly or hostile.  A question asked in friendliness will make no enemies.  When we avoid being mean, there are no problems.  Ask away.  Just be nice about it.

[AmberLF]

On 4/22/2017 at 4:36 PM, cuchulain said:

We had a pretty regular member for a while who was flat out calling other members stupid.  He got warned for that.  

So far as most discussions go here, as long as you question the belief, ask about specific points, and try to be respectful, I think you'll do fine.  There is nothing wrong with calling on someone in a debate to reconsider their position, especially if you have evidence why such should be reconsidered.  As in all discussions, some people get offended by the very idea that they should be questioned.  I remember one in particular, Child of God.  He made some bold claims about being an emissary of God, and God giving him an inside scoop and such.  Specifically, he talked to Angels.  Not those exact words...but I paraphrase.  I told him that if he could get one of those angels to tell him the exact bible phrase I wrote down randomly, that I would consider his position.  Frustrated him something fierce.  

Well, can't say I haven't run across that sort in pretty much any forum. Some places let it ride. Others, like here, seem to press respectful interactions. Good. I miss polite discussions. I can get pretty riled up and manage to keep it respectful, but I really don't like to. Um, get riled that is... respectful is a good thing.

On 4/22/2017 at 4:36 PM, cuchulain said:

Then you have members who seem to take almost any kind of abuse thrown their way with good grace.  I haven't seen them around lately, which isn't uncommon.  Members pop up for a while, then take a break from the headaches we all cause each other, then come back.

The rules of service are pretty fair, though.  No personal attacks.  That's fairly simple.  Just don't name call, or tell people they have no brain, or something like that.  I can say, for example, that I personally find Christianity abhorrent and a complete waste of resources.  That's an example, and not necessarily true, by the way, but I can say that.  So long as I don't tell someone they are abhorrent and a complete waste of resources.  

Good deal. Spending so many years on various boards and chats taught me a lot about who I am and how I'd rather present myself. I can safely say we all screw it up from time to time but I'm not shy with apology when I do. Occasionally groveling has been involved... not often but here and there.

At any rate, thanks for the response. I'm looking forward to reading and discussing when and where I can.

[AmberLF]

On 4/22/2017 at 8:23 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

We do ask each other questions.  The better to understand each other.  Generally, the spirit behind a question is what makes it friendly or hostile.  A question asked in friendliness will make no enemies.  When we avoid being mean, there are no problems.  Ask away.  Just be nice about it.

Absolutely understandable. I guess it comes down to play nice or go away? LOL I can and honestly prefer to do just that. Frustration or confusion might sometimes come off as a bit gruff but overall I'd rather keep it  pleasant. People get points across and are able to take in another point of view better overall in pleasant surroundings. I'd like to think coming to a message board particularly of this type would encourage that sort of thing anyway.

[Rev. Calli]

12 hours ago, AmberLF said:

Absolutely understandable. I guess it comes down to play nice or go away? LOL I can and honestly prefer to do just that. Frustration or confusion might sometimes come off as a bit gruff but overall I'd rather keep it  pleasant. People get points across and are able to take in another point of view better overall in pleasant surroundings. I'd like to think coming to a message board particularly of this type would encourage that sort of thing anyway.

 

Greetings to you my sister,

I think the key is always to treat each other with respect, and recognize that we are not always going to agree on everything.  The people here at the forum come from many different beliefs, and most at least have pretty strong feelings about why they believe the way they do. We want to share our beliefs obviously, but there is a big difference between sharing and demanding others see things the way we do.Sharing is good, demanding, not so much.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

[mererdog]

On 4/27/2017 at 6:42 AM, AmberLF said:

I'd like to think coming to a message board particularly of this type would encourage that sort of thing anyway.

It tends to have the opposite effect. The ULC exists at the intersection of religion and politics, which are subjects famous the world over for their ability to kill a polite conversation. It takes dedication to keep the place civil, so any help is appreciated.