the good of spirituality

[cuchulain]

So many topics lead to the good that religion brings.  I was wondering, does anyone have an example of the good religion or spirituality brings THAT CANNOT BE DONE WITHOUT the religion or spirituality?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

You seem to be conflating religion with spirituality.  Well, what do we mean by spirituality?

There is that sense of awe and wonder.  The kind of experience we get by looking at a star filled sky.  Or a really great thunder and lightning storm.  Or a flower.  Or kittens playing.  Or a Sunset.  Etc.  etc.

There are the various virtues.  Patience, kindness, selfless love, charity, etc.

There are the encounters with the healing energies of Reiki, Qi Gong and others.

The experiences with meditation.

These things and many others can come wrapped up in a religious package with a spiritual bow.  They can also be non-religious and secular.  We find what we seek.  We see what we believe.  Largely, it is the cultural context that we place our values into.

IMO

Edited December 19, 2016 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

I probably was conflating them.  I mean to include all religions, but many religions prefer to be called spirituality, even though they have deities and set rules just like a religion.  I suppose I was being to pc.  Let's rephrase, and leave out the spirituality bit, and call it like it is.  Any good that cannot be done without religion?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

13 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I probably was conflating them.  I mean to include all religions, but many religions prefer to be called spirituality, even though they have deities and set rules just like a religion.  I suppose I was being to pc.  Let's rephrase, and leave out the spirituality bit, and call it like it is.  Any good that cannot be done without religion?

I can't think of anything.  On the other side of the ledger, consider all the Holy War and persecution that the world might have been spared.

[Dan56]

15 hours ago, cuchulain said:

 Any good that cannot be done without religion?

Good and bad can be done with or without religion.. Christianity just inspires the good, but its no guarantor. The only 'good' that a non-believer cannot do, is please God, but then they really don't care about that. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Good and bad can be done with or without religion.. Christianity just inspires the good, but its no guarantor. The only 'good' that a non-believer cannot do, is please God, but then they really don't care about that. 

That is an odd assertion.  Do you know what pleases God?  It is a monstrous parent that does not care when his children do good things -- for any reason.

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

That is an odd assertion.  Do you know what pleases God?  It is a monstrous parent that does not care when his children do good things -- for any reason.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is" (Hebrews 11:6). 

[mererdog]

On 12/19/2016 at 2:02 PM, cuchulain said:

I was wondering, does anyone have an example of the good religion or spirituality brings THAT CANNOT BE DONE WITHOUT the religion or spirituality?

Counterfactuals are tricky. For the most part, we know what did happen and can only speculate a to what could have happened under different circumstances.

Could a specific addict have stopped using wthout the release from guilt that came with belief in salvation? Could a specific community provide for their widows and orphans if there weren't many members who believe charity is rewarded in the afterlife? And how would you go about proving it?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is" (Hebrews 11:6). 

Wow.  Another quote from Scripture.  That we must have faith.  Because it says so in Scripture.       

[cuchulain]

On 12/21/2016 at 1:52 PM, mererdog said:

Counterfactuals are tricky. For the most part, we know what did happen and can only speculate a to what could have happened under different circumstances.

Could a specific addict have stopped using wthout the release from guilt that came with belief in salvation? Could a specific community provide for their widows and orphans if there weren't many members who believe charity is rewarded in the afterlife? And how would you go about proving it?

the same way Christians prove their God is real.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 hours ago, cuchulain said:

the same way Christians prove their God is real.

Just so.  We must have faith, because without faith, we are faithless, and only a person of faith can have faith.  Round and round and round.

I sigh a lot on this board.

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 2:37 PM, Dan56 said:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is" (Hebrews 11:6). 

A rather disgusting point of view that.

It shows a God who rejects the good done by a person who just happens to believe in something other than your God.

I would think that a good and moral person would reject such a God and seek one that gives credit where credit is due..

Regards

DL

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

A rather disgusting point of view that.

It shows a God who rejects the good done by a person who just happens to believe in something other than your God.

I would think that a good and moral person would reject such a God and seek one that gives credit where credit is due..

Regards

DL

Why must we have a god at all?  Any god?  Do we need a god or is it only a cultural habit?

[Gwynn]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Why must we have a god at all?  Any god?  Do we need a god or is it only a cultural habit?

As a Polytheist, I interact with the Gods as I would a friend, lover, or family member depending on my relationship with a specific God. But it is not necessary for someone to have a God in his or her life. My ancestors would make war upon the Gods when they were at odds with them. I find comfort in my relationship with the Gods, but I make decisions for myself. Sometimes I feel they are trying to tell me something, but I weigh their message against my own thoughts. Ultimately, I am always responsible for myself. Neither the Devil (who is not a part of my belief system anyway) nor the Gods make me do anything I don't want to do. I also interact with angels, demons, faeries, and other spirits, but again I follow my own counsel.  As you suggested, I think the various ideas about God do owe much to their respective cultural frameworks, whether speaking of ancient or modern cultures 

BTW, I realize that speaking of my interaction with Gods, angels, demons, and faeries may put off some people, but I do not require others to endorse my beliefs in the supernatural for me to treat them with respect or for them to be my friends. My way is the path I have chosen, but I do not believe it is the only valid path. I feel that when a person believes his or her way is the only way it can lead to intolerance or self aggrandizement. I would ask that before others mock my beliefs that they would consider the more fantastical aspects of their own belief systems  

[Dan56]

10 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

A rather disgusting point of view that.

It shows a God who rejects the good done by a person who just happens to believe in something other than your God.

I would think that a good and moral person would reject such a God and seek one that gives credit where credit is due..

 

If a husband is unfaithful to his wife, is it wrong for the wife to not give her husband credit for pleasing the other woman? If we aren't faithful to God, nothing else matters. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. 

8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Why must we have a god at all?  Any god?  Do we need a god or is it only a cultural habit?

You only need a God if you wish to live, but if your content with life ending in 80 years or so, I guess God isn't a priority.. For believers, God is not a cultural habit, He's the beginning and the end of their existence.

[cuchulain]

13 hours ago, Gwynn said:

As a Polytheist, I interact with the Gods as I would a friend, lover, or family member depending on my relationship with a specific God. But it is not necessary for someone to have a God in his or her life. My ancestors would make war upon the Gods when they were at odds with them. I find comfort in my relationship with the Gods, but I make decisions for myself. Sometimes I feel they are trying to tell me something, but I weigh their message against my own thoughts. Ultimately, I am always responsible for myself. Neither the Devil (who is not a part of my belief system anyway) nor the Gods make me do anything I don't want to do. I also interact with angels, demons, faeries, and other spirits, but again I follow my own counsel.  As you suggested, I think the various ideas about God do owe much to their respective cultural frameworks, whether speaking of ancient or modern cultures 

BTW, I realize that speaking of my interaction with Gods, angels, demons, and faeries may put off some people, but I do not require others to endorse my beliefs in the supernatural for me to treat them with respect or for them to be my friends. My way is the path I have chosen, but I do not believe it is the only valid path. I feel that when a person believes his or her way is the only way it can lead to intolerance or self aggrandizement. I would ask that before others mock my beliefs that they would consider the more fantastical aspects of their own belief systems  

Doesn't put me off, but that shouldn't be a surprise as I was a Druid for 20 years.  I do not say this to mock, so please understand that this is simply my view of all religion these days, but I view all of it as mythology and faerie tales, and as you say there is nothing more fantastical about one belief system than another. 

I mean really...a man flew to heaven on a horse?  worldwide flooding in which the only family saved was Noah's, and we aren't all inbred?  Zeus gave birth to Athena by cracking open his head because he had a migraine?  Same difference to me, my friend.  The only difference for the religious is that they take it one step less than I do by believing in their religion, whereas I view it all as mythology.  

[Gnostic Bishop]

19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Why must we have a god at all?  Any god?  Do we need a god or is it only a cultural habit?

I would say that cultural habit is a good way to class our need to invent or have Gods.

I think that monotheism is likely the best way to try to look at God because then one can develop a singly ideology that can be expressed by that single mind.

 

In a world of conflicting ideas, having an all encompassing single view is likely the best type of ideology. Sure, we all pick up drips and drabs to our ideology from many sources but must work them all into our one ideology.

 

Christianity has a problem with this as they end with a genocidal God that is said to love all those he murders.

 

That is why the Christian ideology is garbage. The same conflicted thinking applies to Islam.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

14 hours ago, Gwynn said:

As a Polytheist, I interact with the Gods as I would a friend, lover, or family member depending on my relationship with a specific God. But it is not necessary for someone to have a God in his or her life. My ancestors would make war upon the Gods when they were at odds with them. I find comfort in my relationship with the Gods, but I make decisions for myself. Sometimes I feel they are trying to tell me something, but I weigh their message against my own thoughts. Ultimately, I am always responsible for myself. Neither the Devil (who is not a part of my belief system anyway) nor the Gods make me do anything I don't want to do. I also interact with angels, demons, faeries, and other spirits, but again I follow my own counsel.  As you suggested, I think the various ideas about God do owe much to their respective cultural frameworks, whether speaking of ancient or modern cultures 

BTW, I realize that speaking of my interaction with Gods, angels, demons, and faeries may put off some people, but I do not require others to endorse my beliefs in the supernatural for me to treat them with respect or for them to be my friends. My way is the path I have chosen, but I do not believe it is the only valid path. I feel that when a person believes his or her way is the only way it can lead to intolerance or self aggrandizement. I would ask that before others mock my beliefs that they would consider the more fantastical aspects of their own belief systems  

Gnostic Christianity does not have such aspects and I think that assigning status to invisible absentee entities is a cop out to recognizing natural law and how it controls most, if not all of what we do.

 

To me, to cry a supernatural wolf without showing the tracts or the ** is not a good thing and those who do believe in always saying the truth should recognize what they say of the Gods are lies.

 

That is one of the things that bother me about priests, preachers and imams constantly lying to their sheeple about the supernatural.

 

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

If a husband is unfaithful to his wife, is it wrong for the wife to not give her husband credit for pleasing the other woman? If we aren't faithful to God, nothing else matters. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. 

???

We were talking about good deeds being done and ignored, even punished by your genocidal son murdering God.

Why do you show a bad deed?

Regards

DL

[Dan56]

18 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

???

We were talking about good deeds being done and ignored, even punished by your genocidal son murdering God.

Why do you show a bad deed?

Regards

DL

Its not a bad deed to the husband and his mistress who found happiness and pleasure with each other.. In their minds, its wonderful and good, so screw the wife.. Its the same with God, we can't claim to be doing good deeds and expect a God that we've rejected to give us credit for it. God defines what's good, and it starts with the first commandment.

There are things we do that are good in and of themselves. God does not punish those things, he punishes sin.. If a person murders your wife and then washes your car for free, do you give him credit or punish him?