religious discrimination

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Sin could not have existed prior to man if it is a choice of man, especially if you claim(and you have) that God is all good.  If God is the only rational being in existence before man, then he is the only option for sinning.  And you claim him incapable of such an act.  Therefore, Sin could NOT have existed prior to man, and God created it with full knowledge.

The origin of sin took place before Adam and Eve were created. The beginning of sin took place prior to the creation of the heaven and earth (Genesis 1). Remember that before Adam sinned, there was already a sinful creature who was in the Garden of Eden and who was in a fallen and wicked condition (Revelation 12:9).

There is no sin in God,. Jesus was the living manifestation of God in the flesh and he knew no sin.. I don't claim that God did not give us the option of sinning, but that the choice to sin is ours. We are therefore responsible for our own choices. God tells us not to sin, so when we disobey him, who's responsible?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

The origin of sin took place before Adam and Eve were created. The beginning of sin took place prior to the creation of the heaven and earth (Genesis 1). Remember that before Adam sinned, there was already a sinful creature who was in the Garden of Eden and who was in a fallen and wicked condition (Revelation 12:9).

There is no sin in God,. Jesus was the living manifestation of God in the flesh and he knew no sin.. I don't claim that God did not give us the option of sinning, but that the choice to sin is ours. We are therefore responsible for our own choices. God tells us not to sin, so when we disobey him, who's responsible?

In the Gospel of John, the Logos -- the Word -- existed from the beginning.  "In the beginning was the word......."

Why then, was the cure for sin in existence before sin came into existence?  Clearly, the story line was in place from the start.  All of it.  The author of this story is responsible for all details.  Like the author of any other story.  IMO

[cuchulain]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

The origin of sin took place before Adam and Eve were created. The beginning of sin took place prior to the creation of the heaven and earth (Genesis 1). Remember that before Adam sinned, there was already a sinful creature who was in the Garden of Eden and who was in a fallen and wicked condition (Revelation 12:9).

There is no sin in God,. Jesus was the living manifestation of God in the flesh and he knew no sin.. I don't claim that God did not give us the option of sinning, but that the choice to sin is ours. We are therefore responsible for our own choices. God tells us not to sin, so when we disobey him, who's responsible?

Who created the sinful creature that was already in the Garden?

[Dan56]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In the Gospel of John, the Logos -- the Word -- existed from the beginning.  "In the beginning was the word......."

Why then, was the cure for sin in existence before sin came into existence?  Clearly, the story line was in place from the start.  All of it.  The author of this story is responsible for all details.  Like the author of any other story.  IMO

The fact that God had a plan to address unrighteousness does not make God responsible for unrighteousness. Yes, the author knew the story (the beginning from the end), but the circumstances that facilitated what came to be originated with rebellion against God. 

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

Who created the sinful creature that was already in the Garden?

God created him, but he did not create him sinful. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15)

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

40 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

The fact that God had a plan to address unrighteousness does not make God responsible for unrighteousness. Yes, the author knew the story (the beginning from the end), but the circumstances that facilitated what came to be originated with rebellion against God. 

God created him, but he did not create him sinful. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15)

I want to be clear on this one point.  Are you speaking of a literal Adam and Eve, eating the forbidden fruit as literal history?

[cuchulain]

On 10/13/2016 at 1:07 PM, Dan56 said:

The fact that God had a plan to address unrighteousness does not make God responsible for unrighteousness. Yes, the author knew the story (the beginning from the end), but the circumstances that facilitated what came to be originated with rebellion against God. 

God created him, but he did not create him sinful. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15)

I quoted you, and you quoted me leaving out the part I quoted you from friend.  You say thou wast perfect...etc...about man.  But I was responding to the part where you said sin was in the garden before man.  That is very circular Dan.  Sin was in the garden before man you said, in the form of an already fallen and sinful creature.  You said this in response to my saying that God created man who sinned and thus was directly responsible for his creation.  You shifted the burden to a different creature, but fail to realize that my argument still applies:  God created THAT creature with sin, or the capability of sin.  Let's summarize:  God is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end and everything in between.  Therefore, God predates everything.  If God predates everything, and Sin existed before everything...then God is capable of sin.  Thus not perfect.  It's a self defeating argument you are spinning, from my perspective.

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, cuchulain said:

  If God predates everything, and Sin existed before everything...then God is capable of sin.  Thus not perfect.  It's a self defeating argument you are spinning, from my perspective.

Sin did not exist before everything,.  Sin did not pre-date God.. Sin originated with Satan, who was the serpent in the garden.. So sin existed before man, but did not originate with God. There's no circular argument there, angels rebelled against God before Genesis 1&2 ever took place. The verse in Ezekiel 28 was referring to Satan, not man; "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God..  Thou art the anointed cherub (angel) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.. thou hast sinned:Therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub" (verses 13-19). He wasn't created with sin, he independently and freely chose to sin.

So my point is that whether its man or angel, neither was created with sin. God did not create sin, there is no sin in God, sin is contrary to God.. Sin originates within the entity from which it emanates, God did not put it there. God is not responsible for sin because we sin, anymore than a contractor who built a house is responsible for the  pyromaniac who burnt it down. 

[cuchulain]

13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Sin did not exist before everything,.  Sin did not pre-date God.. Sin originated with Satan, who was the serpent in the garden..

Exactly.  Sin originated with Satan, the flawed creation of God.  God created Satan, thus Sin.

[Innerfire]

Human beings were created with free will - conscious ability to choose our behaviors and actions. Thus, we can choose to do right or wrong, assuming we KNOW right from wrong. This is true across all cultures and religions, certain universally understood moral concepts generallh apply (known as the Universal Laws). Atheists, secularist, humanists, etc. also understand these laws and moral concepts. You don't need to be a Christian or a Bible scholar to understand these things, but it helps to care about people.  

[cuchulain]

1 hour ago, Innerfire said:

Human beings were created with free will - conscious ability to choose our behaviors and actions. Thus, we can choose to do right or wrong, assuming we KNOW right from wrong. This is true across all cultures and religions, certain universally understood moral concepts generallh apply (known as the Universal Laws). Atheists, secularist, humanists, etc. also understand these laws and moral concepts. You don't need to be a Christian or a Bible scholar to understand these things, but it helps to care about people.  

Created...is not an accepted by all universal law by atheists.  Therein lies the debate:  were we created or did we happen as a part of natural evolution.  Creation implies a creator.

[Innerfire]

Ok - human beings HAVE free will. My point still stands.   It seemed to me the debate was about the origin of evil and the question of sin, unless I misunderstood something? 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Innerfire

[Innerfire]

On October 13, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I want to be clear on this one point.  Are you speaking of a literal Adam and Eve, eating the forbidden fruit as literal history?

Was this question ever answered?  Just wondering. 

[mererdog]

6 hours ago, Innerfire said:

This is true across all cultures and religions, certain universally understood moral concepts generallh apply (known as the Universal Laws). 

There are no universally understood moral concepts. 

[Innerfire]

1 hour ago, mererdog said:

There are no universally understood moral concepts. 

Hmmm. Well then why do all major and even minor religions agree on things like, murder and indiscriminate killing is wrong, honor your ancestors and elders, treat others with respect, and that some form of law is needed to keep society running fairly smoothly (governance)?  Pretty universal. 

[Key]

On 10/10/2016 at 10:53 PM, Dan56 said:

Christ (God) was not punished, but voluntarily gave himself. This was an act of love, no different than a parent paying a debt for their child.. Just as a parent is willing to endure some hardship for their child, God was willing to sacrifice for His children.. Nothing evil about that.

Somehow I can't reconcile the explanation of Christ voluntarily giving himself up with that one little pesky passage that says he was chosen in the beginning. What?

[mererdog]

On 10/15/2016 at 4:07 PM, Innerfire said:

Hmmm. Well then why do all major and even minor religions agree on things like. 

Partly because they don't. Partly because of a history of defining religion to exclude the unsavory. Partly because the social component of religion can only be effective within certain parameters.

Most importantly, not everyone is part of a religion, so being part of all religions would not qualify something as a universally understood moral tenet, merely a widely understood moral tenet.

[cuchulain]

On 10/15/2016 at 5:07 PM, Innerfire said:

Hmmm. Well then why do all major and even minor religions agree on things like, murder and indiscriminate killing is wrong, honor your ancestors and elders, treat others with respect, and that some form of law is needed to keep society running fairly smoothly (governance)?  Pretty universal. 

They don't all agree on those concepts.  Treat other with respect, murder...these things seem to be agreed upon.  But on closer examination you will discover that each religion redefines these concepts to suit its own desires.  Sharia?  That does not seem respectful by many standards.  Even certain branches of Christianity have different examples of what constitutes these behaviors, branches within the same umbrella of Christianity.  Shunning?  That is not respectful, in my opinion.  While it may not be in popular news cycles right now, protesting a funeral is considered by most people to be disrespectful.  But it is done in the name of religion, friend.

To your original point, that humans have free will, I agree.  I do not agree that we are trying to discover the origin of evil or the nature of sin.  Sin is a concept that applies to Gods, I believe.  As an Atheist, I do not believe sin to be possible since I do not believe we can transgress against imaginary beings.  The topic to me has been about discrimination against various religious beliefs (or lack thereof, such as Atheists).  Do certain religions have discrimination practiced against them, and do atheists have discrimination against them because they do not believe?  The answer for me is a resounding yes.  I have seen myriad examples within different religions and against atheists.  What should be done about it, what CAN be done about it?  That's something that everyone seems to have an opinion on.  But back to a prior point, people who follow religions discriminate against those who follow different religions and those that are non religious and this is a disrespectful action, even when the religion in particular actually does have something to say on the basis of being respectful.  I applied for a janitorial job a WTCT, a Christian organization, and was turned down specifically because on the application I answered Druid, when asked what denomination I was.  I was told this face to face during the interview process, though why they bothered with an interview was beyond me(I used to be a Druid, btw).  Many examples similar exist, I am sure.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 10/15/2016 at 3:09 PM, Innerfire said:

Was this question ever answered?  Just wondering. 

Not yet.

[Dan56]

On 10/15/2016 at 9:26 AM, cuchulain said:

Exactly.  Sin originated with Satan, the flawed creation of God.  God created Satan, thus Sin.

 

13 hours ago, cuchulain said:

To your original point, that humans have free will, I agree.

Satan was not a flawed creation, he just had the same free will that you agree humans have. So God created Satan, who independently decided to sin. This does not make God responsible, it makes the entity of which sin emanates responsible. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:15). If sin is a product of choice, it didn't come from God, but is directly produced by those who freely chose it. You can't say that a person has free choice, and simultaneous assign those choices to a creator, especially when there is no sin in God.  

[Dan56]

On 10/13/2016 at 1:53 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I want to be clear on this one point.  Are you speaking of a literal Adam and Eve, eating the forbidden fruit as literal history?

Yes, I was speaking of a literal Adam and Eve, and I believe the story of sin entering the world through Adam is history.. .I personally believe the "forbidden fruit" is allegorical, but disobedience to God was literal, and that sin is where the knowledge of evil came from.