Moderator Cornelius Posted September 21, 2016 Moderator Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 (edited) Howdy Dan How have you been? I know you like to distance yourself from the RCC but have you ever considered if it wasn't for the RCC and its spreading of Christianity over Europe and the world in a large part by force including the crusades and inquisition that you yourself would not be a Christian today? Edited September 21, 2016 by Stormbringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 On 9/19/2016 at 5:42 AM, mererdog said: So God did not technically create sin, but He created all the circumstances that led to its creation and allowed it to happen. That seems to only be a semantic difference. In terms of responsibility, whether you are talking blame or glory, it still looks like it would fall into His lap. Correct, sin was not created, its a bi-product of man. I don't see it as a mere semantic difference, but a profound one. Since there is no sin in God, since sin is contrary to God, since sin is disobedience to God, since God opposes & discourages sin, and since God has separated himself from sin, I hardly think God can be blamed or held responsible for sin. If a contractor built a house and someone set it on fire killing everyone inside, is the contractor to blame for the occupants deaths? 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: Howdy Dan How have you been? I know you like to distance yourself from the RCC but have you ever considered if it wasn't for the RCC and its spreading of Christianity over Europe and the world in a large part by force including the crusades and inquisition that you yourself would not be a Christian today? I kinda don't believe that... The first church in Antioch was not Roman Catholic, the RCC was established a couple hundred years later, and it spread 'religion'. The Crusades originated by the RCC to take back Jerusalem from the Muslims who forcibly stole it. And imo, the Inquisitions were about establishing and maintaining dominance by persecuting Christians, suppressing the Gospel, and silencing Protestant Reformation. Christianity was alive and well pre-RCC, it was established throughout the Byzantine Empire and expanded the Hellenistic world beyond the Roman Empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 On 9/18/2016 at 9:58 PM, cuchulain said: I celebrate that Dan can use the above argument as evidence for his deity while I can view the same exact argument as evidence against it. The chain of reason is clear enough: God created all things. Evil exists God created evil. An all good God does not create evil. God is not all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: The chain of reason is clear enough: God created all things. Evil exists God created evil. An all good God does not create evil. God is not all good. The chain of reason is clear enough: God Created all things There was no evil Then God created man An all good God did not create evil Man chose sin, which produced evil God good... Man bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 (edited) On 9/21/2016 at 4:11 AM, Dan56 said: If a contractor built a house and someone set it on fire killing everyone inside, is the contractor to blame for the occupants deaths? If he also built the person who set the fire, giving them an inclination to set fires, yes. If he built the house poorly, making it a tinderbox that is easily burnt and hard to escape, yes. If he watched it happen and did nothing to stop it, yes. Edited September 22, 2016 by mererdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 On 17/09/2016 at 0:11 PM, cuchulain said: If God created everything, then Sin could not have entered into the world without God's go ahead. You claim that man created sin. But God created man, and so indirectly created sin. This is exactly so and there is scriptural back up for your thinking. Jesus was chosen to die before man was even created as well as his ability to sin. 1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Jesus was chosen to die before man was even created as well as his ability to sin. Christians even sing that Adams sin was a happy fault and necessary sin that gained us a redeemer. Seems that God badly wanted to have his son murdered. Nothing quite like killing your own son to make yourself the peoples hero. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 On 19/09/2016 at 1:26 AM, Dan56 said: Yes, sin is the result of possibility, the possibility of free thinking individuals to independently choose to defy God, or be obedient. The tree of knowledge is analogous to a school that goes from basically daycare to the best university. The tree of knowledge is the source of our moral sense as shown quite clearly in Genesis. Would you deny your children an education and basically keep them quite stupid and without a moral sense. I hope not as that would make you a poor parent indeed. God dis try to deny A & E their education. Was that a good thing for a parent to do and if not, were A & E showing the right choice in disobeying what would be a really stupid command? Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted September 25, 2016 Report Share Posted September 25, 2016 Dan, your analogies fail for one very simple reason. You follow an all powerful, all knowing deity that cannot do better. Sure a parent can clean up their kids milk mess. A parent on the scale of your God would be able to get the kid to not make the mess in the first place. Yet this is not the case with reality that I have observed, nor do you claim it to be, since you state we are all born in sin. Thus, your deity has failed to create perfectly. That's my opinion, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 16 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said: The tree of knowledge is analogous to a school that goes from basically daycare to the best university. The tree of knowledge is the source of our moral sense as shown quite clearly in Genesis. Would you deny your children an education and basically keep them quite stupid and without a moral sense. I hope not as that would make you a poor parent indeed. God dis try to deny A & E their education. Was that a good thing for a parent to do and if not, were A & E showing the right choice in disobeying what would be a really stupid command? Regards DL The knowledge of evil is not an education, its a rotten experience. What's moral about affliction, suffering, and dying? 15 hours ago, cuchulain said: Dan, your analogies fail for one very simple reason. You follow an all powerful, all knowing deity that cannot do better. Sure a parent can clean up their kids milk mess. A parent on the scale of your God would be able to get the kid to not make the mess in the first place. Yet this is not the case with reality that I have observed, nor do you claim it to be, since you state we are all born in sin. Thus, your deity has failed to create perfectly. That's my opinion, by the way. If God's objective was to create free thinking individuals who were capable of independently making choices, then God has not failed to create perfectly. The fact that we freely chose to be disobedient to God is no reflection on his perfection. Just as parents allow their children to screw-up in order to learn, God does likewise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 On 9/9/2016 at 7:40 PM, Dan56 said: Then you ought to know that God didn't create you to sin. Sin is essentially disobedience to God, and its a choice. While sin and death entered the world through one man, and we are all born in a fallen world that's conducive to our sin nature, I don't believe we have ever been absolved of choice. If that were true, God could not be righteous, because he'd be guilty of creating sin... jmo Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 If Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20, as Gnostic Bishop shows...then God created the world knowing full well sin would come about and Jesus would be sacrificed for that sin. Preknowledge of God's actions, contrary to the claims that God had no knowledge of it beforehand. God created the world knowing sin would come about as a direct consequence, thus God is still responsible. But as I have said before, even if he didn't know: If God is all powerful, he is also all responsible in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, cuchulain said: If Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20, as Gnostic Bishop shows...then God created the world knowing full well sin would come about and Jesus would be sacrificed for that sin. Preknowledge of God's actions, contrary to the claims that God had no knowledge of it beforehand. God created the world knowing sin would come about as a direct consequence, thus God is still responsible. But as I have said before, even if he didn't know: If God is all powerful, he is also all responsible in my opinion. I agree. If I set up a line of dominoes and knock over the first; I have knocked over all the dominoes. I can not claim to have knocked over only the first domino. This kind of chain of events, where the end result is known, is all one causal chain. The first cause is responsible for all of them. To suggest otherwise is to say that God can be surprised. So much for all knowing. One more thought on the subject of "free will." If a tell a young child, with no experience or understanding, not to put beans up his nose -- What do I think is going to happen? The fastest way to make a criminal -- or a sinner -- is to make a rule or a law. Is this what God couldn't understand? Such a limited deity. Edited September 29, 2016 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 On 9/8/2016 at 2:54 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: No. The secular government of China. Vicious, deadly persecution. The source of human organs that China is selling all over the world. They are also known as Falun Gong. Are we done talking about the Falun Dafa people? We spend a lot of time on this board talking about religious persecution and outlawing immoral religion. In the mean time, we have a living example of a non-theistic religious group being persecuted by a secular government. I thought it was worth exploring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 23 hours ago, cuchulain said: If Jesus was chosen before the creation of the world, 1 Peter 1:20, as Gnostic Bishop shows...then God created the world knowing full well sin would come about and Jesus would be sacrificed for that sin. Preknowledge of God's actions, contrary to the claims that God had no knowledge of it beforehand. God created the world knowing sin would come about as a direct consequence, thus God is still responsible. But as I have said before, even if he didn't know: If God is all powerful, he is also all responsible in my opinion. God did know sin would come, it already existed prior to creating man, but man's choice brought sin into the world that is. The fact that God knew that sin would result from creating man, does not make God compliant.. Imo, if we truly have free will, then our decisions are 100% our own, and God cannot be culpable. If God had programmed us like robots, then he'd be responsible for our actions, because God would have had direct influence over our decisions. Since sin pre-existed mankind, God created the world knowing full well that sin would occur and that sin would equate to the death of every soul.. In my view, God's purpose was not to enable sin, but to answer sin. What we're living and experiencing now is the result of sin, foreknown by God. The intent was not to create a world of sin, but to create an opportunity to repent from sin; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). So if the consequences of sin is death and God knew all would sin, what was the real purpose of creating the world? To separate the wheat from the chaff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) On 26/09/2016 at 3:36 AM, Dan56 said: The knowledge of evil is not an education, its a rotten experience. What's moral about affliction, suffering, and dying? If God's objective was to create free thinking individuals who were capable of independently making choices, then God has not failed to create perfectly. The fact that we freely chose to be disobedient to God is no reflection on his perfection. Just as parents allow their children to screw-up in order to learn, God does likewise. True to a point. Most parents do not let their children do what will have the parent murder them by neglect. After they ate, A & E were denied by God that which would have kept them alive. The tree of life. A good analogy for that murder is that you would starve your children to death for their mistake. Are you as vile as Yahweh? Would you do what he is said to have done? Most parents would not. BTW. You say we have a free choice to not sin while ignoring the fact that that free choice has never been taken by anyone. Your faith based belief is thus refuted by a fact that your bible agrees with. Regards DL Edited October 10, 2016 by Gnostic Bishop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted October 10, 2016 Report Share Posted October 10, 2016 On 29/09/2016 at 3:37 PM, Dan56 said: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). So if the consequences of sin is death and God knew all would sin, what was the real purpose of creating the world? To separate the wheat from the chaff. Do you think punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice? And if you think it is poor justice and is evil, why would you think God would ask you to profit from such an unjust act? Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 13 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said: Do you think punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice? And if you think it is poor justice and is evil, why would you think God would ask you to profit from such an unjust act? Regards DL Christ (God) was not punished, but voluntarily gave himself. This was an act of love, no different than a parent paying a debt for their child.. Just as a parent is willing to endure some hardship for their child, God was willing to sacrifice for His children.. Nothing evil about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted October 11, 2016 Report Share Posted October 11, 2016 23 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said: Do you think punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice? And if you think it is poor justice and is evil, why would you think God would ask you to profit from such an unjust act? Regards DL Actually, an evil and manipulative God might do that. Assuming of course, that there are ulterior motives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 On 9/29/2016 at 2:37 PM, Dan56 said: God did know sin would come, it already existed prior to creating man, but man's choice brought sin into the world that is. The fact that God knew that sin would result from creating man, does not make God compliant.. Imo, if we truly have free will, then our decisions are 100% our own, and God cannot be culpable. If God had programmed us like robots, then he'd be responsible for our actions, because God would have had direct influence over our decisions. Since sin pre-existed mankind, God created the world knowing full well that sin would occur and that sin would equate to the death of every soul.. In my view, God's purpose was not to enable sin, but to answer sin. What we're living and experiencing now is the result of sin, foreknown by God. The intent was not to create a world of sin, but to create an opportunity to repent from sin; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). So if the consequences of sin is death and God knew all would sin, what was the real purpose of creating the world? To separate the wheat from the chaff. Sin could not have existed prior to man if it is a choice of man, especially if you claim(and you have) that God is all good. If God is the only rational being in existence before man, then he is the only option for sinning. And you claim him incapable of such an act. Therefore, Sin could NOT have existed prior to man, and God created it with full knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innerfire Posted October 12, 2016 Report Share Posted October 12, 2016 Note - the first and most important definiton of jihad is to strive against the evil inclinations and desires within oneself, or to struggle against one's own desires to sin. That is the hardest battle and the most important jihad in Islam. The second most important jihad is to defend others, including other Muslims, one's family and home, against violence and attacks - self-defense, never the aggressor. That leads to the third jihad, which is engaging in war of self-defense of land, people, country, which must be avoided as a last resort, only if necessary. Most Muslims are focused on the first jihad, but sadly, with so much discrimination and ignorance about Islam in the world today, must focus on the second as well, to protect themselves and their families. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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