religious discrimination

[Gnostic Bishop]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

As you say.  The Chinese Communist Party likes to be in complete charge of human thought.

It is an over simplification.  Falun Gong is largely a combination of Buddhism, Taoism, qi gong exercises, meditation and other elements.  They were outlawed in 1999.

Christianity is not getting a free pass in China.  The "house churches" are an underground movement.  When they are caught, they face disaster.

Buddhism is also not much in favor.  Consider what is happening in Tibet.

If you were in China, for sure you would have gotten thrown into prison or killed.

I think this is worth repeating.  Nothing good comes from outlawing or persecuting religion.

 

 

A moral nation that allows immoral religions to go unchecked is bound to become an immoral nation. 

I guess that you think that the U.S. authorities should have ignored Koresh and the Branch Dividians.

I also guess that you do not mind the religious persecution of gays since you do not want us to persecute them for their homophobia.

Do try to think of doing unto others.

Regards

DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Oh,please.  Even I know the doctrine of Original Sin.  

Tsk, tsk.

That almost sounds like a P C way of saying someone is lying.

Regards

DL

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

Lies, lies and more lies.

No wonder Christianity grew itself by the sword instead of good deeds.

Regards

DL

Without disputing one point, or offering an ounce of biblical evidence, your accusation is based on absolutely nothing. Show me a bible verse that illustrates and confirms your ridiculous conclusion that Satan was a girl? Show me where a female angel appeared? Show me the verses that say Satan has not been condemned? Explain why  justice delayed means its denied. If your unable to support these wild conclusions, then your correct in saying; "Lies, lies and more lies".  Your banter must be directed towards the RCC, because it has absolutely no biblical support at all.

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Oh,please.  Even I know the doctrine of Original Sin.  

Then you ought to know that God didn't create you to sin. Sin is essentially disobedience to God, and its a choice. While sin and death entered the world through one man, and we are all born in a fallen world that's conducive to our sin nature, I don't believe we have ever been absolved of choice. If that were true, God could not be righteous, because he'd be guilty of creating sin... jmo

[Gnostic Bishop]

13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Then you ought to know that God didn't create you to sin. Sin is essentially disobedience to God, and its a choice. While sin and death entered the world through one man, and we are all born in a fallen world that's conducive to our sin nature, I don't believe we have ever been absolved of choice. If that were true, God could not be righteous, because he'd be guilty of creating sin... jmo

In the beginning, there was only god.

Everything that is emanated from god and that would include sin and evil.

Your bible is clear that god created evil just as he created all concepts that we can know.

One should know they are off the mark when having to ignore as much of the bible as you do.

Regards

DL

 

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

17 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Without disputing one point, or offering an ounce of biblical evidence, your accusation is based on absolutely nothing. Show me a bible verse that illustrates and confirms your ridiculous conclusion that Satan was a girl? Show me where a female angel appeared? Show me the verses that say Satan has not been condemned? Explain why  justice delayed means its denied. If your unable to support these wild conclusions, then your correct in saying; "Lies, lies and more lies".  Your banter must be directed towards the RCC, because it has absolutely no biblical support at all.

When I quote your bible, you ignore what I put.

Most of the ancient gods, including Yahweh, were androgynous. If god was a creator god, he would use his own form as a template for creating angels just as he did for man.

As to justice delayed.

I am not surprised that you would ignore the victims who seeks justice and closure so as to be better able to leave the pain behind and do not care how the delay is unjust.

To understand that justice delayed is justice denied shows how much compassion your beliefs have robbed you of.

That condition is also why you can ignore the immorality of you using Jesus as your scapegoat.

No compassion.

Regards

DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Then you ought to know that God didn't create you to sin. Sin is essentially disobedience to God, and its a choice. While sin and death entered the world through one man, and we are all born in a fallen world that's conducive to our sin nature, I don't believe we have ever been absolved of choice. If that were true, God could not be righteous, because he'd be guilty of creating sin... jmo

"you ought to know that God didn't create you to sin."

Yet you say we have "our sin nature".

When all sin, as you say, then to say that we have a free choice to not sin, when no one has ever not sinned, is you not facing reality.

Not surprising as your reality is filled with the supernatural and fantasy characters like angels and demons.

What a waste of a good human mind.

Regards

DL

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 9/9/2016 at 2:48 PM, Gnostic Bishop said:

Tsk, tsk.

That almost sounds like a P C way of saying someone is lying.

Regards

DL

Just because someone is using sloppy, confused thinking, does not mean he is lying.  In this case, I think it's cognitive dissonance.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 9/9/2016 at 7:40 PM, Dan56 said:

Then you ought to know that God didn't create you to sin. Sin is essentially disobedience to God, and its a choice. While sin and death entered the world through one man, and we are all born in a fallen world that's conducive to our sin nature, I don't believe we have ever been absolved of choice. If that were true, God could not be righteous, because he'd be guilty of creating sin... jmo

According to the doctrine of Original Sin, I entered the world already a sinner.  That leaves small room for choice or disobedience.  That means that I'm already a sinner.  Your nuance is without meaning.

[cuchulain]

Dan, if God were all powerful, only he would have the POWER of creation.  Sin had to be created.  Therefore, only God could have created it.  
Additionally, if sin were a choice there would certainly(mathematically speaking) be some examples of those who chose NOT to sin, so your postulation that everyone was a sinner would be blatantly false.  

Asking for us to provide biblical evidence to support the truth seems much like asking Muslims to do the same.  It isn't my religion, therefore I feel not the slightest inclination to accept the book as a source of truth.  You do, and that's fine for you friend.  But you are asking a PC to interface with a Mac in my opinion.  You want evidence that Christianity has lived by the sword?  Well, that may or may not be in the bible, but it is certainly evidence historically in the real world we live in.  Evidence that Christians persecuted others?  As well, evident historically.  You can do the foot work(or not) yourself, if you want the specific instances.  That's your choice as well.

By the way, I understand the analogies above work both ways, and that we as PC's are asking you as a Mac to operate in our manner as well.  That's why I am trying to stop asking others to operate on my standards.  I am certain I will fail at times, but the attempt seems worthwhile to me.

[Gnostic Bishop]

14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Just because someone is using sloppy, confused thinking, does not mean he is lying.  In this case, I think it's cognitive dissonance.

 

I call it more like bearing false witness as they are taking second and third hand ideas/hear say and passing them off as real and true.

If they cleaned up their sloppy language and confused thinking, then I would recant my saying they are lying outright, but most do not.

Regards

DL

Edited September 11, 2016 by Gnostic Bishop

[Dan56]

On 9/10/2016 at 8:18 AM, Gnostic Bishop said:

In the beginning, there was only god.

Everything that is emanated from god and that would include sin and evil.

Your bible is clear that god created evil just as he created all concepts that we can know.

One should know they are off the mark when having to ignore as much of the bible as you do.

I disagree, God did not create sin. God is not capable of sin, its in direct opposition of his will. Evil is the result of sin.. The fall of man began when we chose the knowledge of evil, we are now experiencing something we freely chose to know. 

On 9/10/2016 at 8:27 AM, Gnostic Bishop said:

As to justice delayed.

I am not surprised that you would ignore the victims who seeks justice and closure so as to be better able to leave the pain behind and do not care how the delay is unjust.

To understand that justice delayed is justice denied shows how much compassion your beliefs have robbed you of.

That condition is also why you can ignore the immorality of you using Jesus as your scapegoat.

No compassion.

 

You look at justice from a limited time frame. The bible teaches that no one gets away with anything; "And I saw a great white throne.. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works... And they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:11-15). Jesus is the living definition of compassion, what you call a scapegoat, I call a Savior. 

[Dan56]

On 9/10/2016 at 7:34 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

According to the doctrine of Original Sin, I entered the world already a sinner.  That leaves small room for choice or disobedience.  That means that I'm already a sinner.  Your nuance is without meaning.

I believe we're all born of sin and in sin, but we aren't born with sin. We inherit a sin nature, but we aren't sinners until we sin. How could you enter the world being guilty of doing something you haven't done? You logic is without meaning. 

17 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Dan, if God were all powerful, only he would have the POWER of creation.  Sin had to be created.  Therefore, only God could have created it.  
Additionally, if sin were a choice there would certainly(mathematically speaking) be some examples of those who chose NOT to sin, so your postulation that everyone was a sinner would be blatantly false.  

Asking for us to provide biblical evidence to support the truth seems much like asking Muslims to do the same.  It isn't my religion, therefore I feel not the slightest inclination to accept the book as a source of truth.  You do, and that's fine for you friend.  But you are asking a PC to interface with a Mac in my opinion.  You want evidence that Christianity has lived by the sword?  Well, that may or may not be in the bible, but it is certainly evidence historically in the real world we live in.  Evidence that Christians persecuted others?  As well, evident historically.  You can do the foot work(or not) yourself, if you want the specific instances.  That's your choice as well.

By the way, I understand the analogies above work both ways, and that we as PC's are asking you as a Mac to operate in our manner as well.  That's why I am trying to stop asking others to operate on my standards.  I am certain I will fail at times, but the attempt seems worthwhile to me.

I disagree, a righteous God cannot create something contrary to himself. God not only separated himself from sin, He won't allow it in his Kingdom. Everyone has a choice, its why I haven't murdered anyone, but no one is perfect, and no one can resist all temptation (save one). That was the lie Satan sold to Eve; "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3: 4&5).

For me, Christians are followers of what Christ lived and taught. I don't deny the Crusades or the Roman Catholic Inquisition, but that's historically relevant to a church, not a Christian. Many religions operate by they're own standards while professing another. 

[Gnostic Bishop]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

I disagree, God did not create sin. God is not capable of sin, its in direct opposition of his will. Evil is the result of sin.. The fall of man began when we chose the knowledge of evil, we are now experiencing something we freely chose to know. 

You look at justice from a limited time frame. The bible teaches that no one gets away with anything; "And I saw a great white throne.. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works... And they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:11-15). Jesus is the living definition of compassion, what you call a scapegoat, I call a Savior. 

God is not capable of sin,

What happened to your all-powerful omnipotent god?

You cannot answer that but then again, I see what you wrote as a lie because of the following that make god a liar and a sinner.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

 

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. - Jeremiah 20:7

 

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

 

That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways.

 

Regards

DL

[cuchulain]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

I believe we're all born of sin and in sin, but we aren't born with sin. We inherit a sin nature, but we aren't sinners until we sin. How could you enter the world being guilty of doing something you haven't done? You logic is without meaning. 

I disagree, a righteous God cannot create something contrary to himself. God not only separated himself from sin, He won't allow it in his Kingdom. Everyone has a choice, its why I haven't murdered anyone, but no one is perfect, and no one can resist all temptation (save one). That was the lie Satan sold to Eve; "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3: 4&5).

For me, Christians are followers of what Christ lived and taught. I don't deny the Crusades or the Roman Catholic Inquisition, but that's historically relevant to a church, not a Christian. Many religions operate by they're own standards while professing another. 

I disagree too, with the general premise.  God created everything that is.  He created sin, and therefore God is not righteous.  That's the basic contradiction the bible has, that God did everything good but nothing bad, yet nothing existed before God, and evil exists.  God created everything, including evil, but God is all good and cannot create evil...it's ALL contradictory.  Hence part of the reason I am atheist.  If it is partly contradictory, the premise is flawed and should not be accepted.  The premise is the bible.  I find it flawed, and so do not accept it.  

It just seems self evident to me, though clearly it isn't or everyone would see it   If in the beginning there was only God, and God can do no evil, and evil did not exist before God but does AFTER God created everything...it's a contradictory statement.

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

God is not capable of sin,

What happened to your all-powerful omnipotent god?

You cannot answer that but then again, I see what you wrote as a lie because of the following that make god a liar and a sinner.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22 These were lying spirits,  prophets to Ahab king of Israel, not God.

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9  The context is clearly about a false prophet and the person who comes to him  (beginning at Ezekiel 14:7).

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11 "Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes" (Matthew 11:25)

 

To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy. The remedy was/is Christ

 

That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways. That we can agree on

 

Deceit is only to confound those who come before God under false pretenses.. You tend to take a single word verbatim but fail to assign the correct context.

 

5 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I disagree too, with the general premise.  God created everything that is.  He created sin, and therefore God is not righteous.  That's the basic contradiction the bible has, that God did everything good but nothing bad, yet nothing existed before God, and evil exists.  God created everything, including evil, but God is all good and cannot create evil...it's ALL contradictory.  Hence part of the reason I am atheist.  If it is partly contradictory, the premise is flawed and should not be accepted.  The premise is the bible.  I find it flawed, and so do not accept it.  

It just seems self evident to me, though clearly it isn't or everyone would see it   If in the beginning there was only God, and God can do no evil, and evil did not exist before God but does AFTER God created everything...it's a contradictory statement.

Well, we won't agree on where sin emanated from. God created us and we sin, so despite the virtue of "free will", your intent on holding God responsible for what we choose to do. I obviously don't see it that way. If your child became a bank robber, did you create a thief, or did you create a child who freely chose to be disobedient to you and violate the law?

Evil is the direct result of sin, it didn't exist prior to sin because sin is its cause. God simply allowed choice, from which sin came and evil resulted.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Dan56

[Key]

59 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Well, we won't agree on where sin emanated from. God created us and we sin, so despite the virtue of "free will", your intent on holding God responsible for what we choose to do. I obviously don't see it that way. If your child became a bank robber, did you create a thief, or did you create a child who freely chose to be disobedient to you and violate the law?

Evil is the direct result of sin, it didn't exist prior to sin because sin is its cause. God simply allowed choice, from which sin came and evil resulted.

I'm sorry, Dan, but your response inside the box, (which we aren't suppose to do, I recall), for Thessalonians 2:11 doesn't resolve nor absolve the issue you are trying to defend. As you state it, God is still responsible for creating a lie to some, even if not all.

So God doesn't allow sin, you say. Isn't lying a sin? If He isn't capable or doesn't allow, then how are the verses even a possibility?

As long as no one lies to God, it's okay for Him to lie? I don't get this idealogy.

My curiosity is piqued. Could you further explain this contradiction, as it is in my mind right now.

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, Key said:

I'm sorry, Dan, but your response inside the box, (which we aren't suppose to do, I recall), for Thessalonians 2:11 doesn't resolve nor absolve the issue you are trying to defend. As you state it, God is still responsible for creating a lie to some, even if not all.

So God doesn't allow sin, you say. Isn't lying a sin? If He isn't capable or doesn't allow, then how are the verses even a possibility?

As long as no one lies to God, it's okay for Him to lie? I don't get this idealogy.

My curiosity is piqued. Could you further explain this contradiction, as it is in my mind right now.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 makes sense when taken in context of what Paul is saying; "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". God doesn't send a lie, the lie is already with them, God just sends delusion which blinds them to the truth. When the truth is withheld, all that's left is delusion and confusion. " Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them...When they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened...Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...Who changed the truth of God into a lie" (Romans 1:19-25)

"God is not a man, that he should lie" (Numbers 23:19)
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2)
 "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie" (Hebrews 6:18)

[Gnostic Bishop]

15 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Evil is the direct result of sin, it didn't exist prior to sin because sin is its cause. God simply allowed choice, from which sin came and evil resulted.

Satan was alive before man did his first sin. Right?

If so, how can you say that evil did not exist before sin?

 

As to your free will card.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

 

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

 

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

 

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

  

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

 

Regards

DL

 

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 makes sense when taken in context of what Paul is saying; "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". God doesn't send a lie, the lie is already with them, God just sends delusion which blinds them to the truth. When the truth is withheld, all that's left is delusion and confusion. " Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them...When they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened...Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...Who changed the truth of God into a lie" (Romans 1:19-25)

"God is not a man, that he should lie" (Numbers 23:19)
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2)
 "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie" (Hebrews 6:18)

"God just sends delusion which blinds them to the truth."

Is it good to blind someone to the truth, or is it evil?

 

Regards

DL