Who Controls The Weather?

[Dan56]

If God was behind the tornado that hit Kansas Dan then I think the only thing we are to God is possibly his personal snooker table.

I believe God's sovereignty extends to everything. Nature is not independent of its Creator. Jesus said; "He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:45). Disasters hit everywhere indiscriminately, its the world we inherited after being thrown out of paradise. God may not direct a tornado, but He surely allows it... jmo.

[Pete]

I believe God's sovereignty extends to everything. Nature is not independent of its Creator. Jesus said; "He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:45). Disasters hit everywhere indiscriminately, its the world we inherited after being thrown out of paradise. God may not direct a tornado, but He surely allows it... jmo.

A horrible thought (IMO). Said to be able to stop such suffering but chooses not to. Could we trust such a person?

We do not see God the same way Dan.

[Fawzo]

A horrible thought (IMO). Said to be able to stop such suffering but chooses not to. Could we trust such a person?

We do not see God the same way Dan.

Isn't that the whole basis of Christianity though. God made the whole world suffer for the actions of two individuals. All the suffering of every generation past, present and future because of the actions of two people and somehow people think that this Christian God is a just God. It friggin amazes me.

It is like I stole a cookie fom Dan and he justly rewards me by making all my future generations suffer terribly because of my theft and people applaud him for his justness. FRIGGIN AMAZING!!

Edited June 6, 2013 by Fawzo

[Pete]

I guess it depends on the Christianity. I have always said that some are more verbal than others but it does not mean that they are the only ones.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_different_types_of_Christianity_are_there

and even this list is not all inclusive.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Pete

[Fawzo]

I guess it depends on the Christianity. I have always said that some are more verbal than others but it does not mean that they are the only ones.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_different_types_of_Christianity_are_there

and even this list is not all inclusive.

I think they all include the fall of man starting with Adam and Eve though and the curse that was inflicted upon those naive beings by their loving God.

[Pete]

There are some who do not believe the bible is God's words (just the words of man), do not believe in original sin, or that that Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden actually existed in anything other than folk lore. Try telling Bishop Spong or a liberal or a Quaker or a Unitarian that they believe in the bible is the words of God or that Adam and Eve existed and you will get a raised eye brow and a quick denial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIyVWACkii0

Edited June 7, 2013 by Pete

[Dan56]

A horrible thought (IMO). Said to be able to stop such suffering but chooses not to. Could we trust such a person?

We do not see God the same way Dan.

It would be better to try and understand why God established an environment conducive to hardship and suffering. God told Adam; "Cursed is the ground because of you" (Genesis 3:17). Do you think that if God stopped all the suffering that everyone would repent from all wrongdoing and turn to God? I don't... In fact, I believe most people are often drawn to God due to the conditions of our existence.

A day is coming when God will stop all suffering; "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:4). So yes, I trust such a God, and I suspect that He knows what he's doing.

[Pete]

It would be better to try and understand why God established an environment conducive to hardship and suffering. God told Adam; "Cursed is the ground because of you" (Genesis 3:17). Do you think that if God stopped all the suffering that everyone would repent from all wrongdoing and turn to God? I don't... In fact, I believe most people are often drawn to God due to the conditions of our existence.

A day is coming when God will stop all suffering; "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:4). So yes, I trust such a God, and I suspect that He knows what he's doing.

As I have previously said Dan, can a God who watches suffering and chooses to do nothing be trusted to make things better. You have mentioned before about the war in heaven among the angels. I stand back and ask if that is so then what assurances do we have that things will be better next time because that too was under God's rule according to scripture..

I am not going to be reassured by a bible quote and especially one from revelations but I just see this life as the place the spirit grows and the next life as the place the spirit is set free. I do not believe hell exists except in the English translation of Greek text being made from a possible Aramaic origin. However, I do see the lives of many are suffering a hell now and that bothers me.

[Pastor Dave]

I personally believe that God created everything, including the weather, so directly or indirectly, nothing happens without God knowing or controlling the parameters. In this case, the atmospheric conditions which formed the tornado were part of what God put into motion.

Although I express it a little differently, we are on the same page here. I usually think of it like this; The Lord God,... YHVH the Elohim, set in motion the laws that govern this Universe. These laws include the laws that govern the weather. In this manner YHVH may be considered responsible for the weather. However, the topic reads, who controls the weather? In that sense I don't see God as a direct cause.

How does one pray if one lives in Oklahoma which happens to sit in both the Bible Belt and Tornado Alley?

I pray something to the effect of; Oh Heavenly Father, Lord put your hand over me and my family and protect us from harm.

I've never been disappointed.

The F5 that went through Fort Smith Ar in 1996 touched down about six blocks from me. I didn't lose as much as a branch. My cousin, also a praying Christian, was actually a couple of blocks into the area where it touched down. He told me he was praying a similar prayer. His house lost a dozen shingles while a half block on either side of him and across the street from him houses lost windows and roofs. The woman next door to him was also a Christian. She lost a few more shingles and a small piece of porch roof. It wasn't a particulary deadly tornado however the monetary damage was significant.

Say what you will,... call it coincidence .... call it luck .... call it whatever you like,......... I call it The Favor of God.

I think they all include the fall of man starting with Adam and Eve though and the curse that was inflicted upon those naive beings by their loving God.

Not all of us are as caught up in the literal reading of that story as you seem to be. Although there is a surface meaning to the text there is a deeper meaning. That is where the pearl of knowledge is. If you only look at the surface meaning of the text you gain much less than is available Fawzo. Your ability to call up scripture to fit a topic is astounding. I'm sure you have looked beyond the superficial meaning of the text. If you'd like to discuss the fall I would think it would deserve a topic of it's own though.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Pastor Dave

[Fawzo]

Although I express it a little differently, we are on the same page here. I usually think of it like this; The Lord God,... YHVH the Elohim, set in motion the laws that govern this Universe. These laws include the laws that govern the weather. In this manner YHVH may be considered responsible for the weather. However, the topic reads, who controls the weather? In that sense I don't see God as a direct cause.

I pray something to the effect of; Oh Heavenly Father, Lord put your hand over me and my family and protect us from harm.

I've never been disappointed.

The F5 that went through Fort Smith Ar in 1996 touched down about six blocks from me. I didn't lose as much as a branch. My cousin, also a praying Christian, was actually a couple of blocks into the area where it touched down. He told me he was praying a similar prayer. His house lost a dozen shingles while a half block on either side of him and across the street from him houses lost windows and roofs. The woman next door to him was also a Christian. She lost a few more shingles and a small piece of porch roof. It wasn't a particulary deadly tornado however the monetary damage was significant.

Say what you will,... call it coincidence .... call it luck .... call it whatever you like,......... I call it The Favor of God.

Not all of us are as caught up in the literal reading of that story as you seem to be. Although there is a surface meaning to the text there is a deeper meaning. That is where the pearl of knowledge is. If you only look at the surface meaning of the text you gain much less than is available Fawzo. Your ability to call up scripture to fit a topic is astounding. I'm sure you have looked beyond the superficial meaning of the text. If you'd like to discuss the fall I would think it would deserve a topic of it's own though.

Pastor day I am quite aware of the allegorical import of the story in getting the point across that something occurred way back in the beginning that caused the fall of humans from grace with their newly found ability to perceive "self" "other" and duality in general.

What this knowledge also does for me though is to confirm that any need for a bloody human sacrifice to rectify the situation is also allegorical and mythical at best.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

As I have previously said Dan, can a God who watches suffering and chooses to do nothing be trusted to make things better. You have mentioned before about the war in heaven among the angels. I stand back and ask if that is so then what assurances do we have that things will be better next time because that too was under God's rule according to scripture..

I am not going to be reassured by a bible quote and especially one from revelations but I just see this life as the place the spirit grows and the next life as the place the spirit is set free. I do not believe hell exists except in the English translation of Greek text being made from a possible Aramaic origin. However, I do see the lives of many are suffering a hell now and that bothers me.

The assurance I have that things will be better is biblically based. That's the promise to every believing Christian and its what gives us peace of mind. Throw the bible out and all your left with is what you think, and that to me is faith based on no foundation.

[Kingfisher]

Control isn't the word I would use. It's more of an equitable relationship between Energy and Mass.

It's very enlightening.

[Pete]

The assurance I have that things will be better is biblically based. That's the promise to every believing Christian and its what gives us peace of mind. Throw the bible out and all your left with is what you think, and that to me is faith based on no foundation.

Funny though Dan that is just how I see the bible promises as being "without foundation".

I have looked at the history and looked at the arguments of fundamentalist Christianity and found them baseless (IMO). As I have pointed out before I believe you preach a God who lost control of his creation and cannot forgive his creation for that unless something or someone dies. Who approached a small and obscure nation of people (in biblical times) to give them a law that never saved anyone from God's judgmental attitudes, who then decided to kill his son so that he could forgive them, and his words of salvation are written in a book which is full of inconsistencies and contradictions and took years to decide on what went into it and which of the versions of the many texts should go in it and still today we have 2000 years later debate on how to interpret it. I am sorry but I believe all you presented to me is a vision of a tyrant and incompetent God who cannot love beyond a given set of dogmas and then you say within that highly disputed text is promises that I can be assured of. I personally do not see your position as having much foundation either.

Lets also move on from this, we have the OT text that was passed on for many years by word of mouth and there is variances in what it says as found in the dead sea scrolls. We have Gospel writings that have no proof that they truly reflected the ministry of Jesus or were written by people who ever knew Jesus. Which was chosen out of many differing accounts being chosen because they corresponded to the ministry of Paul who again has no proof that he ever met Jesus or that he ever had any agreement with his disciples and even he declares he had little to do with them and what contact he did have with them appeared frosty or contradictory.

Now you say I should feel assured about all of this.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Pete

[Dan56]

Funny though Dan that is just how I see the bible promises as being "without foundation".

I have looked at the history and looked at the arguments of fundamentalist Christianity and found them baseless (IMO). As I have pointed out before I believe you preach a God who lost control of his creation and cannot forgive his creation for that unless something or someone dies. Who approached a small and obscure nation of people (in biblical times) to give them a law that never saved anyone from God's judgmental attitudes, who then decided to kill his son so that he could forgive them, and his words of salvation are written in a book which is full of inconsistencies and contradictions and took years to decide on what went into it and which of the versions of the many texts should go in it and still today we have 2000 years later debate on how to interpret it. I am sorry but I believe all you presented to me is a vision of a tyrant and incompetent God who cannot love beyond a given set of dogmas and then you say within that highly disputed text is promises that I can be assured of. I personally do not see your position as having much foundation either.

Lets also move on from this, we have the OT text that was passed on for many years by word of mouth and there is variances in what it says as found in the dead sea scrolls. We have Gospel writings that have no proof that they truly reflected the ministry of Jesus or were written by people who ever knew Jesus. Which was chosen out of many differing accounts being chosen because they corresponded to the ministry of Paul who again has no proof that he ever met Jesus or that he ever had any agreement with his disciples and even he declares he had little to do with them and what contact he did have with them appeared frosty or contradictory.

Now you say I should feel assured about all of this. No, I'm just saying that I'm assured by it.

The bible is the foundation for what fundamentalist like myself believe. Those who accept it don't find it full of inconsistencies or contradictions. It may have taken 300 years to officially canonize all the letters into the new testament, but they were written, shared, and used in the churches long before that. They didn't have printing presses, but used copies long before the Roman Church compiled a single codex. The only evidence of authenticity comes from the testimony of the NT authors themselves, a person either finds their writings credible, inspired and consistent, or they choose to dismiss them as heretical. The bible is the Divine Word to those who faithfully receive it, but its just jibber-jabber to those who don't.

I'm just stating what I believe, and not suggesting what you should believe. I believe God is in complete control and has always been very forgiving. You obviously have a lot of disdain for the biblical God, but remember that King David deserved death, but upon repentance he was forgiven of adultery and murder. Simply stated, I believe everyone will either receive God's Grace or God's Wrath, there is no middle ground.

From the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Great Isaiah Scroll was discovered in Cave 1 in 1947. It was identified as the Biblical Book of Isaiah. The Great Isaiah Scroll has been carbon-14 dated at least four times. The four studies produced calibrated date ranges between 335-324 BC and 202-107 BC.

Remarkably, the fully intact "Great Isaiah Scroll" contains the entire book of Isaiah that we read today, all 66 chapters! The Great Isaiah Scroll is almost identical to the most recent manuscript version of the Masoretic text from the 900's AD, this is phenomenal evidence for the credibility of biblical scripture. Source: http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls-2.htm

[Pete]

Have you seen the information coming from organisations like the Biblical Archaeology Society. There were varying versions of Isaiah and Deuteronomy and many other fragments found among the scrolls and not as you say, just one copy that is the same as today.

I recommend this group. I have been a member for a while. They not only publish great books but also many on line lectures.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/free-ebooks/the-dead-sea-scrolls-discovery-and-meaning/

Things are not as clear cut as you present them. You would also find that your often used quote that archaeology does not contradict the bible, that it does often and in many areas.

[Fawzo]

Dan said >>>>>>"I'm just stating what I believe, and not suggesting what you should believe. I believe God is in complete control and has always been very forgiving. You obviously have a lot of disdain for the biblical God, but remember that King David deserved death, but upon repentance he was forgiven of adultery and murder. Simply stated, I believe everyone will either receive God's Grace or God's Wrath, there is no middle ground."

God is in complete control?!?!?! Really and he is right this minute standing by and watching innocent women and children, even some newborns, being brutally raped and murdered. Newborns being born with birth defects that will create life times of suffering. If God is in complete control isn't free will a faux gift and of no consequence?

How could he also have just stood by and watched all those children who have just suffered and died horrible deaths around the planet from malnutrition expire while I typed this message. At least 5 of them just passed.

King David was guilty of offending God on multiple occasions and each time others perished. One time it was 70,000 Hebrews until God repented of the evil he had done and another time it was the death of an completely innocent child and yet you still see this as justice and righteous.

This God who wants to kill us all because we have offended him except that his only son seeing the injustice of it says wait no dad don't kill them, kill me instead and then this God accepts the sacrificial offering still incapable of forgiving and allowing his anger to abate, because his obsession for payment and vegeance far exceeds any hint of mercy, compassion and forgiveness and then he pulls the trigger killing his only son because someone has to pay the price. Complete control......methinks not!!!

Edited June 12, 2013 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

God is in complete control?!?!?! Really and he is right this minute standing by and watching innocent women and children, even some newborns, being brutally raped and murdered. Newborns being born with birth defects that will create life times of suffering. If God is in complete control isn't free will a faux gift and of no consequence?

Yes, I believe God watches it all, and all will be judged accordingly (Romans 12:19). I believe God is in complete control, we have the freedom to do as we please because God gave us free-will. If it were a fake gift, there wouldn't be any brutal rapes or murders, those things happen by the will of men, not God.

How could he also have just stood by and watched all those children who have just suffered and died horrible deaths around the planet from malnutrition expire while I typed this message. At least 5 of them just passed.

The world (we) can stop the deaths of children dying from malnutrition. Christ, moved by compassion, healed the sick and fed the multitudes (Matthew 14:14, Mark 8:2). Maybe the real problem is that we haven't followed his example?

King David was guilty of offending God on multiple occasions and each time others perished. One time it was 70,000 Hebrews until God repented of the evil he had done and another time it was the death of an completely innocent child and yet you still see this as justice and righteous.

Well, I didn't say there weren't any consequences, just that David was forgiven.

This God who wants to kill us all because we have offended him except that his only son seeing the injustice of it says wait no dad don't kill them, kill me instead and then this God accepts the sacrificial offering still incapable of forgiving and allowing his anger to abate, because his obsession for payment and vegeance far exceeds any hint of mercy, compassion and forgiveness and then he pulls the trigger killing his only son because someone has to pay the price. Complete control......methinks not!!!

You don't understand 'justice'. Where's your concern for the 'brutally rapped and murdered' victims that you mentioned? You seem to want a god that has mercy, compassion, and forgiveness for murderers and rapist, even though they reject God and don't repent. That's not a god that appeals to me at all. Believers are justified in Christ despite ourselves, if that's not control, I don't know what is.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Dan56

[Pete]

Dan in describing David as forgiven then how about those who died for his decisions. Like the seventy thousand innocent people destroyed because David took a census.

2 Samuel 24: 13-15.

13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.

15 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

KJV

How is that Justice?

[Dan56]

Dan in describing David as forgiven then how about those who died for his decisions. Like the seventy thousand innocent people destroyed because David took a census. How is that Justice?

Pick-up the subject in verse 1, what was God's motivation?; "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 24:1) "Again" carries us back to the former tokens of His wrath in the three years of famine (2 Samuel 21:1..). God was still angry with a portion of Israel for killing the Gibeonites while under King Saul. For the people's sin David was left to act wrong, God permitted Satan to tempt David. But it was for the purpose of rendering judgement against Israel, it was those 70,000 that God was angry with. JMO

[Pete]

Pick-up the subject in verse 1, what was God's motivation?; "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 24:1) "Again" carries us back to the former tokens of His wrath in the three years of famine (2 Samuel 21:1..). God was still angry with a portion of Israel for killing the Gibeonites while under King Saul. For the people's sin David was left to act wrong, God permitted Satan to tempt David. But it was for the purpose of rendering judgement against Israel, it was those 70,000 that God was angry with. JMO

That justifies nothing (IMO)

Does God use temptation as a tool:-

NO! James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

YES!

Genesis 22:1 God did tempt Abraham.

Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go number Israel and Judah.

temptation over the census?

YES!

2 Samuel 24:1-17 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. ... And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done. ... So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel ... and there died of the people .. seventy thousand men.

1 Chronicles 21:2

And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. ... And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. ... So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Pete