What Level Of Responsibility Does Christianity Hold For The Dark Ages?

[Youch]

I have seen some interesting discussions on this topic and would like to open up the topic here as well.

Did the suppression of Scientific Discoveries and suppression of free thought create the environment that led to the Dark Ages?

Yet, that title of the thread is this:

What Level Of Responsibility Does Christianity Hold For The Dark Ages?

Isn't that different than asking this:

Did the suppression of Scientific Discoveries and suppression of free thought create the environment that led to the Dark Ages?

Christianity is responsible for a lot of things, most of which has been fantastic for the human experience. Our very own U.S. Constitution derives much of it's morals from the Bible (this isn't debateable, look to their own writtings).

To your second, more specific question........ I find it far more interesting than your titled question. My re-phrasing: Did religious motivations prevent/prolong the Enlightenment and thus the Industrial Revolution and thus the Technological Revolution?? I think yes is the only answer. Corportions do the same thing. It's a human thing called competitiveness.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Happy

[LeopardBoy]

Christianity is responsible for a lot of things, most of which has been fantastic for the human experience. Our very own U.S. Constitution derives much of it's morals from the Bible (this isn't debateable, look to their own writtings).

Exactly which of these Constitutional morals are exclusive to the Bible and Christianity?

The founders were influenced by a variety of religions.

[Youch]

Exactly which of these Constitutional morals are exclusive to the Bible and Christianity?

The founders were influenced by a variety of religions.

No, they actually were not influenced by "a variety of religions," which is why I directed you to their own writtings!! Read their own writtings....

Why would you assume/ssert my posts are not factually based?? I have no contrarian reputation!!!!??!? At worst the FFs conflicted between Christianity and the Jeffersonian theist position. But in large mesaure they were conjoined in their moral and historical belfief! Either way, it does not change my post or the position at all...... Read the FF's own documents......

And can you find any confliction in the US Constitution??? Or course not....

[LeopardBoy]

Which religion did the idea of democracy come from? Or republics, or senators? I'd love to know how these concepts are based on the Bible.

Please don't tell me that these terms are not religious, because I have done my homework regarding ancient democratic processes.

[Youch]

Which religion did the idea of democracy come from? Or republics, or senators? I'd love to know how these concepts are based on the Bible.

Please don't tell me that these terms are not religious, because I have done my homework regarding ancient democratic processes.

If you had done your homework, as you suggest, then you would've already known the answers to your questions.

As an aside, which influences all these discussion, is have you read Plato's Republic? I have, but more importantly so did the Founding Fathers, who were quite learned in both political philosophy and the history of man. It is a debate, I agree, but to me that answer is exceedingly obvious!!

It is importantly to know the difference between the difference of the terms you cite.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Happy

[LeopardBoy]

If you had done your homework, as you suggest, then you would've already known the answers to your questions.

As an aside, which influences all these discussion, is have you read Plato's Republic? I have, but more importantly so did the Founding Fathers, who were quite learned in both political philosophy and the history of man. It is a debate, I agree, but to me that answer is exceedingly obvious!!

It is importantly to know the difference between the difference of the terms you cite.

And what does Plato's "Republic" have to do with the Bible? Which religious practice did these Greek philosophers get their morality from? If the founding fathers of our country were versed in Greek philosophers, how can you say they were not influenced by a variety of religions?

[Cornelius]

As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.............. Treaty of tripoli

Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it. If it ever was adopted, therefore, into the common law, it must have been between the introduction of Christianity and the date of the Magna Charta. But of the laws of this period we have a tolerable collection by Lambard and Wilkins, probably not perfect, but neither very defective; and if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. ~Jefferson

[Youch]

As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.............. Treaty of tripoli

Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it. If it ever was adopted, therefore, into the common law, it must have been between the introduction of Christianity and the date of the Magna Charta. But of the laws of this period we have a tolerable collection by Lambard and Wilkins, probably not perfect, but neither very defective; and if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. ~Jefferson

On the contrary:

http://www.lawandliberty.org/founders.htm

http://oneclimbs.com/2012/03/12/the-founding-fathers-were-overwhelmingly-religious-men/

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5243

http://acheritagegroup.org/blog/?p=321

http://www.quora.com/How-many-of-the-U-S-Founding-Fathers-were-Christian

http://politicalpistachio.blogspot.com/2011/07/myth-15-founding-fathers-were.html

On the contrary, any of these citations are only a vey small part of the whole; our founding father's were very devout and heavily influenced. The degree's to which their dedication is almost irrelevent. The overall influence is unargueable. Funny, in these discussons there is almost never a reference to any other religious/philosophical point of view. It is a DUH moment.....

[Cornelius]

On the contrary...

As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.............. Treaty of tripoli

[Dorian Gray]

Founded on and influenced by are two very close sounding statements but are worlds apart on actual impact.

I would agree that the US was not founded on the Christian Religion. However, I would find it hard to argue against that the large majority of the founding fathers were not greatly influenced by their Christian faith, and that influence (along with several other writings, philosophers, etc) served as the springboard they used when founding the US.

Founded on and influanced by

[Cornelius]

Founded on and influenced by are two very close sounding statements but are worlds apart on actual impact.

I would agree that the US was not founded on the Christian Religion. However, I would find it hard to argue against that the large majority of the founding fathers were not greatly influenced by their Christian faith, and that influence (along with several other writings, philosophers, etc) served as the springboard they used when founding the US.

Founded on and influanced by

I agree many of the founding fathers (although not many of the most influential or well known ones) were influenced by their faith. However, the government is secular and the constitution is a secular document. I would agree with your assertion fully if they had not seen fit to add "in any sense" to the statement.

[Dorian Gray]

I again go back to the difference between founded on and influenced by.

[Tsukino_Rei]

These discussions always give me pause to wonder if the United States practical national religion might be one of ancestral veneration.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Tsukino_Rei

[Dorian Gray]

Not true ancestor veneration, select veneration.

[Cornelius]

And what does Plato's "Republic" have to do with the Bible? Which religious practice did these Greek philosophers get their morality from? If the founding fathers of our country were versed in Greek philosophers, how can you say they were not influenced by a variety of religions?

Good questions. Hopefully they get addressed.

I again go back to the difference between founded on and influenced by.

Would not influence be covered by "in any sense?" What is the scope of this inlfuence? Can you point to where this influence can be seen?

[Dorian Gray]

Not really. Found on (even with the qualifier of "in any sense") means that that it would be a primary source, while influence is more of a "light touch" or even in this case, potentially, an indirect touch. As to where the influence can be seen, look at anything based on common law or even the early laws of the nation. Even more so the simple fact that Washington felt it was appropriate to swear in as the Chief Executive on a religious text instead of say a copy of the declaration of independence or constitution.

[Cornelius]

Not really. Found on (even with the qualifier of "in any sense") means that that it would be a primary source, while influence is more of a "light touch" or even in this case, potentially, an indirect touch. As to where the influence can be seen, look at anything based on common law or even the early laws of the nation. Even more so the simple fact that Washington felt it was appropriate to swear in as the Chief Executive on a religious text instead of say a copy of the declaration of independence or constitution.

Why common law?

[Dorian Gray]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#Medieval_English_common_law

crap source, but you get the idea

[Youch]

Founded on and influenced by are two very close sounding statements but are worlds apart on actual impact.

I would agree that the US was not founded on the Christian Religion. However, I would find it hard to argue against that the large majority of the founding fathers were not greatly influenced by their Christian faith, and that influence (along with several other writings, philosophers, etc) served as the springboard they used when founding the US.

Founded on and influanced by

I agree many of the founding fathers (although not many of the most influential or well known ones) were influenced by their faith. However, the government is secular and the constitution is a secular document. I would agree with your assertion fully if they had not seen fit to add "in any sense" to the statement.

I again go back to the difference between founded on and influenced by.

Our founding fathers were of course influenced by their faith. They were also influenced by their experience and by history; compared to today's boobs our founding fathers were quite learned and well read. Faith played a HUGE role in crafting our Declaration and Constitution. I again request people read the Federalist Papers and other contemporary correspondance to understand their intent and purposes.