As We Were Meant To Be

[Hyper Real]

First, it is addressed only to Israel, not to other nations.

And your point is?

I suppose I have to be glad that the Rabbi at least does not argue it is only addressed to the Levites.

Second, compliance with this law is a condition for residing in the Holy Land, but is irrelevant outside it (see the closing exhortation, Lev.18: 24-30).

If the Rabbi thinks this passage can be used as an excuse to disobey the law when outside Israel I think he has a very serious problem with God.

Third, it is limited to men; lesbianism is not prohibited. Thus it is incorrect to apply this prohibition on a universal scale.

I agree with that.

I believe God does not allow men to perform anal sex with other men. As two females cannot have intercourse the issue to me is moot and biblically I think it is questionable if two women can even have sex.

Edited December 15, 2011 by hyperreal

[old_nick]

I believe God does not allow men to perform anal sex with other men. As two females cannot have intercourse the issue to me is moot and biblically I think it is questionable if two women can even have sex.

Sometimes a person says something that betrays such a painful lack of thought or even basic understanding that I am left questioning my choice to be a teetotaler. The above is such a statement.

[RabbiO]

One last, other, perspective, because to continue with this is futile, just as an indication as to the diversity of thought that questions the legitimacy of reading Leviticus in the manner that hyperreal suggest, is that of Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson. Rabbi Artson has noted the proscription of homosexual acts in Leviticus forms the basis for all later halakhic pronouncements in that regard. What is interesting, again as Rabbi Artson makes clear, is these passages in Jewish legal literature speak about homosexual acts outside of the context of homosexual relationship. The nature of the sex is casual, almost circumstantial such as two bachelors who happen to be under the same blanket, a young boy seduced by an older man (Mishneh Torah, Issurei Bi’ah l:14.

Rabbi Artson goes on to point out, "The context of the Bible’s knowledge of homosexual acts is clarified by examining the two occasions where these acts are threatened. In the first case, the men of Sodom demand that Lot send out his guests so they could rape them. It should be noted that these would-be rapists are all heterosexual. Similarly, in the second case the Benjaminites of Gibeah demand "bring out the man who has come into your house, so that we can be intimate with him. Rabbi Robert Gordis notes: ‘Actually the two episodes highlight the heinous sin involved in violating the ancient practice of hospitality to strangers ; they are not primarily concerned with homosexuality.’

The Bible knows of homosexual acts, but not of homosexual orientation or persons. There is not a single case in the Tanakh which deals with homosexual acts in the context of homosexual love. Every case deals with homosexuals who engage in homosexual acts as an expression of idolatry, of power (such as rape), or, presumably for fun....The Torah was not speaking about the constitutional homosexual because it had no awareness of the possibility of such a person...The Torah did not prohibit what it did not know."

Edited December 15, 2011 by RabbiO

[Hyper Real]

The Bible knows of homosexual acts, but not of homosexual orientation or persons.

I believe there is a difference between homosexual feelings and love and the act of a man having anal sex with another man.

The first, I believe, is not forbidden by God, the second, I believe, is.

To me all this, what I call: "twisting of bible texts, to satisfy current social demand" is a grave offense in the eyes of God.

Not that that always would matter as I know quite a few Rabbis and Ministers who call themselves atheist or think of God as some imaginary idol that can be used to further their own agenda.

Edited December 15, 2011 by hyperreal

[Songster]

..... to continue with this is futile......

My opinion echos the Rabbi's.

[RabbiO]

My opinion echos the Rabbi's.

אחת, שתיים, שלוש, ארבע, חמש, שש,

שבע, שמונה, תשע, עשר ....... מאה

I feel better already.

[Songster]

I still have several questions concerning the application of the law being confined within the borders of the Promised Land, but will wait til you're in the Hot Seat for the answers. (Please note, I did not say that I am not convinced that I am mistaken in my opinion, only that I agree "...to continue with this is futile....")

Edited December 15, 2011 by Songster

[Didymus]

The topic has gone a long way since the first post, but I'd like to go back to it, and the relationship between BIID and homosexuality, transgenderism, etc...

I think BIID is a great example of people having a very strong belief about their body but being totally wrong. I would put hypochondriacs and transexuals in the same category myself. But we've seen this and similar arguments before. The first I can remember was in the early 90's when a study found the hypothalami in several gay men were smaller than those in straight men. Immediately I both side of the issue claimed the study as proof that they were right. Gay activists said "See, it's biological!", and religious conservatives said, "See, it's a physical deformity!" Both sides claimed that science had proven them right. I think the science is extremely interesting, but ultimately, science only explains how things happen. It doesn't give us the value. We simply assign that ourselves.

So I think the larger question is, "So what?" Personally, I have no problem at all with homosexuality or bisexuality (or heterosexuality for that matter), but I think that being transexual shows a psychological break with reality. As a minister, I think I would need to be upfront about my views on these issues with anyone that came to me for counsel, but ultimately, to help them decide what they feel is right for them. As a citizen, I think it's all well and good for me to have my opinions about these issues as long as I'm not trying to legislate them onto others.

So what about that side of it? Beyond whether or not you think it's "ok". what does all of this mean for you in practical terms?

And of course lesbianism isn't wrong. It's hot.

[To`na Wanagi]

The argument of this thread has to do with religious indoctrination which condemns the glbt community, and the argument of science which has yet to come to any firm conclusion on the subject. Which is why I suggest to both sides they consider the positions of those who have "been there, done that", yes. But as well, for those of a religious persuasion to take their own texts and consider the words of the prophet Jeremiah (1st chapter), The words of the Psalmist (Psalm 139), and the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:11-14 and Matthew 24:4-13....

That being said, and as one of "those people" of which this thread describes, I can say, and pray. those words of scripture cited above without guilt, or fear, or shame. Neither those of religions or of sciences can know my thoughts or my heart. And I welcome only the rule of law which is of God, and not of man.

But I can also speak to the elephant in the room which so many others, of religions or sciences, seem to be oblivious to, that as you speak these hurtful words of judgment and condemnation against others, that those whom you condemn are present, listening and hearing, the hatred set against them...."Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus

[Brother Kaman]

If one is to believe that God reigns supreme, then it would follow (to me anyway) that whatever God creates is perfect in its creation. Gay, lesbian, transsexual, heterosexual, are all perfect in their creation and therefore "meant to be." I get tired of listening to people say, "Oh, it was meant to be." when referring to a romance that ended in marriage or, "It just wasn't meant to be." when plans to buy a home (or some other important act) fell through. If one believes in the whole "meant to be" philosophy, then whatever happens is meant to happen and whatever doesn't happen is not meant to happen. In some cultures in our not too distant past it was believed that babies born with physical deformities were not allowed to live because an evil spirit intermingled with it and caused the deformity. The same reasoning for using God to bash the gay, lesbian, transsexual community, is the same reasoning for using the Bible to think of black people as sub-human decedents of Cain.

I regret if I have offended anyone. The above statements are of my belief and opinion only.

Peace

[Atwater Vitki]

If one is to believe that God reigns supreme, then it would follow (to me anyway) that whatever God creates is perfect in its creation. Gay, lesbian, transsexual, heterosexual, are all perfect in their creation and therefore "meant to be." I get tired of listening to people say, "Oh, it was meant to be." when referring to a romance that ended in marriage or, "It just wasn't meant to be." when plans to buy a home (or some other important act) fell through. If one believes in the whole "meant to be" philosophy, then whatever happens is meant to happen and whatever doesn't happen is not meant to happen. In some cultures in our not too distant past it was believed that babies born with physical deformities were not allowed to live because an evil spirit intermingled with it and caused the deformity. The same reasoning for using God to bash the gay, lesbian, transsexual community, is the same reasoning for using the Bible to think of black people as sub-human decedents of Cain.

I regret if I have offended anyone. The above statements are of my belief and opinion only.

Peace

Bingo! Yahtzee! Uno!

Brother Kaman, I too hope that no one takes what you said as inflammatory or offensive, as I certainly do not read it as such, merely an understanding and view point on your behalf. Whatever happens is as it should be, period. I agree with you wholeheartedly that many of us tire of the "is" - "is not" debate as to events in our lives. Unfortunately it is a cycle that many find difficult to break, including myself in years past.

I firmly believe that if anyone subscribes to a Universal, Omniscient Being, then it is not up to mankind to determine what is "right" and what is "wrong" about "His" creations, regardless of who or how they interpret an ancient text of any origin. If one believes in "God", "The Collective Conscious" or the "Sugar Plum Fairy"...what difference does that make towards our primary objective of tolerance and allowances??

What fear is so great within the individual that they can not accept things as being the way they are suppose to be, just as they are??

I take this as being of great concern to myself and my wife very much so....were it not for modern medical technologies, neither of us would be here. We've both lived extremely difficult lives (physically/health wise) as a result of medical break-throughs that "saved" our lives at birth. So, we could use the argument that "God" didn't plan for us to live and our momentary presence was all that our life-cycle was suppose to be - to show our parents a lesson or teach a doctor a thing or two or? or? or??.... OR one could argue that since we were born at a time when these break-throughs were current, we were suppose to Live. However, we've both chosen to simply say "things are as they should be ...and... what is our lesson in all of this?"

I won't bore you with the lists we've created, but four, (sometimes aggravating - ) children are top of the list! Who knows, maybe one of our grandchildren might solve the mystery of Life or discover a new vaccine or save a life from some other torment, or push the "Big Red Button"...who knows?!? But in the long run... things will just simply be what they are and that's all things will be!!

Blessings of Peace,

[RabbiO]

I firmly believe that if anyone subscribes to a Universal, Omniscient Being......

What fear is so great within the individual that they can not accept things as being the way they are suppose to be, just as they are??

1) Since the first does not apply to me....

2) It is not fear. It is the call from the G-d I serve that - צדק צדק תרדף

Justice, Justice shall you pursue.

It is not fear. It is the call from the G-d I serve that - דרשו משפט אשרו חמוץ שפטו יתום ריבו אלמנה

Seek judgment against the ruthless, defend the orphan, speak for the widow.

To tell the rape victim, the mother of a son gunned down in a drive by shooting, a Jew sitting in a concentration camp, a child starving in Dafur that things are what they are supposed to be, just as they are is something I cannot begin to fathom. With that attitude there would be no events leading to Hanukkah and the Jewish people would have been consigned to the dustbin of antique curiosities more than 2 thousand years ago.

[Hyper Real]

With that attitude there would be no events leading to Hanukkah and the Jewish people would have been consigned to the dustbin of antique curiosities more than 2 thousand years ago.

I believe that Jews living in exile for about 2000 years is nothing to skimp over, or worse, forget about.

I think it is real suffering. At least, I think, for observing Jews, I do not speak of those who wallow in worldly wealth and forget about God.

[RabbiO]

I believe that Jews living in exile for about 2000 years is nothing to skimp over, or worse, forget about.

I think it is real suffering. At least, I think, for observing Jews, I do not speak of those who wallow in worldly wealth and forget about God.

hyper -

You keep dancing around some point you apparently want to make about Jews. I am not a mind reader - the jury is out on whether that is because I cannot read or I do not have a mind, or both - so it would help me if you would just come to the point. That way anyone who wishes to respond to your point, including me, can do so without the risk of misinterpreting what you wish to say.

Edited December 20, 2011 by RabbiO

[To`na Wanagi]

1) Since the first does not apply to me....

2) It is not fear. It is the call from the G-d I serve that - צדק צדק תרדף

Justice, Justice shall you pursue.

It is not fear. It is the call from the G-d I serve that - דרשו משפט אשרו חמוץ שפטו יתום ריבו אלמנה

Seek judgment against the ruthless, defend the orphan, speak for the widow.

To tell the rape victim, the mother of a son gunned down in a drive by shooting, a Jew sitting in a concentration camp, a child starving in Dafur that things are what they are supposed to be, just as they are is something I cannot begin to fathom. With that attitude there would be no events leading to Hanukkah and the Jewish people would have been consigned to the dustbin of antique curiosities more than 2 thousand years ago.

Again, dear brother, I believe we must be closely related. For, if there is such a thing as sin, then the sin of ommission and the sin of silence, must surely be the most egregious of all to the Creator of each our understanding.

And I will continue to do what is asked of me to do; "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; And what doth the lord require of thee, But to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God." - Micah 6:8

[Hyper Real]

You keep dancing around some point you apparently want to make about Jews. I am not a mind reader - the jury is out on whether that is because I cannot read or I do not have a mind, or both - so it would help me if you would just come to the point. That way anyone who wishes to respond to your point, including me, can do so without the risk of misinterpreting what you wish to say.

It seems you are looking for some points, whatever that means.

I am simply saying that we have been promised by God for over 2000 years to have our home back, that is not a sinecure, at least it is not to me.

Would an evicted homeowner party because he got his home back for a short time but now is again evicted for ages? Is there logic in that? What is there to celebrate?

Does that make it clearer?

[Didymus]

Hang on, Atwater Vikti. I think what Brother Kaman is trying to say is that the idea that whatever exists is meant to be is faulty reasoning - along the same lines as the reasoning that allowed other antiquated, faulty reasoning.

And I agree. Just because people act a certain way doesn't mean that they should. Gay, hetero, trans... fine. But what about cannibal, necrophile, pedophile...? These are not ways of being in the world that are perfect and/or "meant to be".

[Atwater Vitki]

Hang on, Atwater Vikti. I think what Brother Kaman is trying to say is that the idea that whatever exists is meant to be is faulty reasoning - along the same lines as the reasoning that allowed other antiquated, faulty reasoning.

And I agree. Just because people act a certain way doesn't mean that they should. Gay, hetero, trans... fine. But what about cannibal, necrophile, pedophile...? These are not ways of being in the world that are perfect and/or "meant to be".

To tell the rape victim, the mother of a son gunned down in a drive by shooting, a Jew sitting in a concentration camp, a child starving in Dafur that things are what they are supposed to be, just as they are is something I cannot begin to fathom. With that attitude there would be no events leading to Hanukkah and the Jewish people would have been consigned to the dustbin of antique curiosities more than 2 thousand years ago.

I follow both of your rationales, however, none of us can possibly understand, fully, what the Creator has intended through His "big picture". While starvation, war, necrophilia, pedophile and cannibal may seem completely out of reason for us....are we so bold as to say we know the all powerful, all knowing, Omniscient Mind? I can't begin to believe so, being a puny Hu-man and all.

Blessings,

Edited December 21, 2011 by Atwater Vitki

[Didymus]

I follow both of your rationales, however, none of us can possibly understand, fully, what the Creator has intended through His "big picture". While starvation, war, necrophilia, pedophile and cannibal may seem completely out of reason for us....are we so bold as to say we know the all powerful, all knowing, Omniscient Mind? I can't begin to believe so, being a puny Hu-man and all.

Blessings,

Good question. It's kind of a twist on the usual answers to the old question of theodicy; How can a good and all-powerful God allow bad things to happen? The usual answers are related to limits on God's power and knowledge, but you're going for the 3rd part of the question and basically saying that bad things don't really happen - it just seems that way. Which, to me, seems like a pretty good way to go.

But my answer would not be that I don't know the all powerful, all knowing, Omniscient Mind. I solve the dilemma for myself with the belief that there are, in fact, things that are definitely wrong, but that the ultimate power in the universe isn't an Omniscient Mind at all. I think that we've personified God and created "him" in our image, and that's been the source of a whole bucket full of theological problems.

[To`na Wanagi]

I think that we've personified God and created "him" in our image, and that's been the source of a whole bucket full of theological problems.

I'm with you on that!

As to the rest: is God a puppetmaster? Is God a manipulator which favors vanilla people over chocolate people? Did god create humans for Its own amusement, like a remote controlled toy? Pretty shallow God in my estimation to have to play with humans and determine their every move and action and thought.

Sally and Jimmy were playing with Barbie and Ken. Sally, in her most demure Barbie voice said, "Ken, I've been cheating on you with GI Joe."

Jimmy, in his most angry Ken voice replied, "Get over here you dirty B.... I'm going to beat your a..Then take you down to the square and have you stoned!"

God's games?...

Edited December 21, 2011 by To`na Wanagi