As We Were Meant To Be

[Tsukino_Rei]

http://en.wikipedia....entity_disorder

There is a condition that can occur in which the brain incorrectly wires to parts of the bodies, usually limbs and most commonly the white leg of white, middle aged, males. This incorrect wiring translates to the individual suffering this as a strong sense that the limb is not truly part of them and should not be there. They know that their brain is telling them that their body is not right and that their body will not feel right until this limb is gone.

The most widely accepted current theory on the origin of BIID is that it is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body's physical form.

http://www.biid.org/

Many psychologists and neurologists have ventured theories into what causes this type of thought. The common leading idea is that Body Integrity Identity Disorder, or BIID, occurs when the brain is not able to provide an accurate plan of the body. In this case, the brain sees the offending limb as being foreign and not actually a part of the person, thus the desire to have it removed.

Remarkably, these individuals know very clearly EXACTLY how their brain has patterned their body and what alterations need to be made to match their bodies to that pattern in order to achieve that sense of wholeness and rightness.

Now, given this, I would point out that there are many many ways in which an individuals biological gender can be medically in question regardless of their outward physical appearance. It may be as difficult to see as an extra chromosome, or additional male or female organs that have grown inside an individual which only come to light when a doctor has reason to go exploring internally. Rarely it can be in the form of being born with additional visible organs which these days parents will often choose to have operated for removal asap. It seems apparent to me that these individuals brains would pattern accordingly and that these individuals might very probably gain a very strong sense that they are not as they should be and will not feel whole or right within themselves until their bodies do match what their brains have patterned. These people would know exactly what gender alterations would bring them to the point where their brains will allow them to feel comfortable within their own bodies.

Growing up within religion I was always taught that God made me exactly as I should be and that I must see myself as beautiful because of Him. But, the reality of procreation is that a lot can go wrong. Human procreation is extremely hit and miss. At least 1 in 4 pregnancies end in early miscarriage due to genetic problems. Doctors now believe that miscarriages are much more common than that, but are thought to just be heavy or late periods. Pregnant women are traditionally discouraged from telling their families until after the heart has developed and a healthy heartbeat is found. In many cases the heart just doesn't grow.

Once the second trimester is reached, and a healthy developing heart is found, the chances of miscarriage drop much lower. But there is still a very long list of genetic conditions which can cause a late miscarriage and which doctors watch for the signs of. There are some genetic conditions which may not cause miscarriage, but which doctors can also watch for, such as down syndrome.

Other genetic conditions include colour blindness, the ability to see additional colours, various forms of dyslexia, autism spectrum disorder, all prove even further that minor differences in our dna, or in the way our bodies translate those teeny instruction manuals, can create amazing differences in our development as human beings.

As many genetic errors that can occur by simple accident, so very many can also occur because of exposure to environmental toxins, or lack of diversity within a population, hence why inbreeding is really unhealthy.

Given all this it seems unjustifiable to look upon another human being that feels a wrongness at their apparent gender and tell them that they're wrong to feel this way. What decides what a person was meant to be? Is it possible to recognise that the biological process of reproduction is extremely fallible without pointing a finger at God and accusing Him of making mistakes?

Edited December 11, 2011 by Tsukino_Rei

[Atwater Vitki]

A very deep and "need for thought" proposal there Tsukino.

I can, in a very small way, empathize with what you are saying here. As a young child through becoming an adult, I continuously looked at my left ring finger and envisioned it "missing". At 24 years old I had one heck of a doozy motorcycle accident that crushed both hands, feet, broke my pelvis and cracked my head wide open. I spent 5 1/2 months in hospital.

The only "noticeable" after effect of that wreck was a one big surgery scar and a couple of other small, barely seen scars and a knee/hip/pelvis that screams in the winter time...like today...coooold!....and my left ring finger is at a permanent bend at the second knuckle. (it often looks like my wedding ring is on a "stump")

So was my visions as a kid, this BIID syndrome or a vision of things to come?

Given all this it seems unjustifiable to look upon another human being that feels a wrongness at their apparent gender and tell them that they're wrong to feel this way. What decides what a person was meant to be? Is it possible to recognize that the biological process of reproduction is extremely fallible without pointing a finger at God and accusing Him of making mistakes?

Yes, according to the very text that some use to say a person is mistaken, "God" does NOT make mistakes. Beings that so many people would choose to say someone is not "right" about their sexuality or gender, they want to use the "Word" both ways. That is not right or fair. I firmly believe that "God" does not make mistakes and it's those who choose to go against His word that are in the wrong. This is why I feel 100% correct in just knowing that the text was written by man, even though it very likely was inspired by God...just too many contradictions for me to wrap my head around its fallibility.

Those that can not love another for being just who and what they are, made by "God", have the problem, not the person who feels they are in the wrong skin or feels love for their own gender. Jesus loved everyone for being who they were created as, HE did not pick and choose, so why can't others follow example. If modern day people want to quote the OT about "not laying with"...consider who for and when that was written. Frankly texts outlining how a given people are suppose to live has no application on my life what-so-ever and quite bluntly I feel it is an insult to that people to try to include myself in their belief.

Blessings of Peace,

[To`na Wanagi]

I very much appreciate this topic and both posts. I am one of "those" creatures. And while I tried so earnestly, so honestly, so passionately to be what the world expected me to be, the six words pounding and resounding in my heart, my head, my spirit were; "To thine own self be true." Which is why I live by those words while exhorting to the rest of the world, "Just because the world thinks/says it's so, does not make it so."

If there is such a thing as sin, then those who perpetuate and promote hostility toward those of us who have had no part in our own procreation and are anamolies of nature, have surely sinned against the very God they claim to follow. We are all children of God....or...none of us are.

And for those who do not believe in a god, their prejudicial bigotries are no less than those they despise.

Thank you dear sister for your eloquence and beautiful spirit of love for one another. And thank you dear brother for your understanding heart.

I have told many a soul that maybe, just maybe, God made people like me so that people like they could learn to understand people like me. ...God's Peace....To`na Wanagi

Edited December 11, 2011 by To`na Wanagi

[Bro. Hex]

Great posts, folks! :thumbu:

[Atwater Vitki]

If only everyone could just accept everyone else, eh? Wouldn't it be a wonderful world?

Blessings of Peace,

[old_nick]

I like the post but there are a few nitpicks I want to make. I think it's inaccurate to compare BIID with gender identity issues. Yes, both result from neurological phenomena, but there is a marked difference. Apotemnophilia, which BIID is an extreme manifestation of, is typically classified as a monothematic delusion. Monothematic delusions are a spectrum of single-focus delusions resulting largely(though not always) from brain trauma. It's an important distinction to make because with monothematic delusions, the brain itself actually is damaged, it's broken and malfunctioning. Not exactly something you want to compare as analagous to gender identity issues. Now, if you look at a transexual, for instance, there is no overt sign of any actual trauma to the brain. It appears to be more developmental in nature and not severe enough to truly be called a malformity. Now, if you look at the BSTc of the stria terminalis in a transexual, you will see it corresponds more closely to the BSTc of a member of the opposite reproductive identity in terms of size. So a person could be born with male reproductive parts, but their brain is female for want of a better term. There is also the INAH3 which shows strong correspondence as an indicator of sexuality, including homosexuality and bisexuality. These are developmental aspects of the brain and are not malfunctioning, where the brain in the case of a sufferer of BIID is malfunctioning. One is health, the other is wracked with cognitive trauma. So I think trying to build a basis for comparing the two is a poor tactic overall.

I think the "how we are meant to be" argument is begging the question. It assumes purpose where there isn't any. In our godless universe, there is no inherent purpose or intelligent driving force behind it. Biologically, our purpose would be to see offspring to sexual maturity so that the offspring themselves can continue the cycle. It's a lot more than just popping out a child and involves raising the offspring over the long term. A role homosexuals, bisexuals, transexual, et cetera in our species and others fulfills perfectly. In several species, orphanned members are adopted by homosexual couples, as an example. They then see these members that would otherwise have died to maturity. This is most easily seen in several species of bird.

We're machines made out of meat running our little neuron computers to navigate the world around us. Who we are is our brain. Our personality, emotion, hopes, dreams, worries, it's all up there running in the synaptic circuitry of our brain. As comforting as it would be to think there is something more, some place we'll get to see our departed loved ones, some world of bliss where there is no suffering, there is no indication of any of this. I'd rather hard and even painful truth than I would lying to myself and convincing myself that my make believe exists. There is no afterlife, so we should strive to create one. There is no world of perfect bliss, so we should work to create one. There is no inherent purpose, so we should seek to form one for ourselves. This last part is the easiest to do and the one we do anyway. You weren't born as you are with any sort of purpose. You're suffering isn't part of some design. Neither is your joy. The good news is that knowing that frees you. You don't have to spend your life wondering why X bad thing happened. There is no "why". So now you are freed up to do what needs to be done to make sure it doesn't happen again and to heal the lingering effects of it. Superstition is a prison. It is comfortable because it is familiar. People with monothematic delusions are not born with knowledge of their "true self". They have a defect. One we should be moved with pity and compassion to fix. One need only to look at a patient with Cotard Delusion to realize that.

Edited December 12, 2011 by old_nick

[Tsukino_Rei]

I like the post but there are a few nitpicks I want to make. I think it's inaccurate to compare BIID with gender identity issues. Yes, both result from neurological phenomena, but there is a marked difference. Apotemnophilia, which BIID is an extreme manifestation of, is typically classified as a monothematic delusion. Monothematic delusions are a spectrum of single-focus delusions resulting largely(though not always) from brain trauma. It's an important distinction to make because with monothematic delusions, the brain itself actually is damaged, it's broken and malfunctioning. Not exactly something you want to compare as analagous to gender identity issues. Now, if you look at a transexual, for instance, there is no overt sign of any actual trauma to the brain. It appears to be more developmental in nature and not severe enough to truly be called a malformity. Now, if you look at the BSTc of the stria terminalis in a transexual, you will see it corresponds more closely to the BSTc of a member of the opposite reproductive identity in terms of size. So a person could be born with male reproductive parts, but their brain is female for want of a better term. There is also the INAH3 which shows strong correspondence as an indicator of sexuality, including homosexuality and bisexuality. These are developmental aspects of the brain and are not malfunctioning, where the brain in the case of a sufferer of BIID is malfunctioning. One is health, the other is wracked with cognitive trauma. So I think trying to build a basis for comparing the two is a poor tactic overall.

I think the "how we are meant to be" argument is begging the question. It assumes purpose where there isn't any. In our godless universe, there is no inherent purpose or intelligent driving force behind it. Biologically, our purpose would be to see offspring to sexual maturity so that the offspring themselves can continue the cycle. It's a lot more than just popping out a child and involves raising the offspring over the long term. A role homosexuals, bisexuals, transexual, et cetera in our species and others fulfills perfectly. In several species, orphanned members are adopted by homosexual couples, as an example. They then see these members that would otherwise have died to maturity. This is most easily seen in several species of bird.

We're machines made out of meat running our little neuron computers to navigate the world around us. Who we are is our brain. Our personality, emotion, hopes, dreams, worries, it's all up there running in the synaptic circuitry of our brain. As comforting as it would be to think there is something more, some place we'll get to see our departed loved ones, some world of bliss where there is no suffering, there is no indication of any of this. I'd rather hard and even painful truth than I would lying to myself and convincing myself that my make believe exists. There is no afterlife, so we should strive to create one. There is no world of perfect bliss, so we should work to create one. There is no inherent purpose, so we should seek to form one for ourselves. This last part is the easiest to do and the one we do anyway. You weren't born as you are with any sort of purpose. You're suffering isn't part of some design. Neither is your joy. The good news is that knowing that frees you. You don't have to spend your life wondering why X bad thing happened. There is no "why". So now you are freed up to do what needs to be done to make sure it doesn't happen again and to heal the lingering effects of it. Superstition is a prison. It is comfortable because it is familiar. People with monothematic delusions are not born with knowledge of their "true self". They have a defect. One we should be moved with pity and compassion to fix. One need only to look at a patient with Cotard Delusion to realize that.

I see your point, and meant no offence. I drew the comparison only for the purpose of illustrating that synaptic variances can be expressed through a form of cognitive awareness , which I find quite remarkable.

[Hyper Real]

If only everyone could just accept everyone else, eh? Wouldn't it be a wonderful world?

Why would that not include accepting 'flawed' DNA?

[old_nick]

I see your point, and meant no offence. I drew the comparison only for the purpose of illustrating that synaptic variances can be expressed through a form of cognitive awareness , which I find quite remarkable.

What's remarkable is that it's not a "can be" but an "is". Every facet of who we are comes down to that wiring. Your memory, your joy, what kind of books you prefer, it's all there in your brain. I'm not certain if you've read the AGI thread, but it's the sort of thing I've been discussing there. The brains we have evolved are truly amazing and awe-inspiring.

[Songster]

(I started this yesterday afternoon but had to leave before I could post, and though several have responded since then, my position has not been altered by their positions or opinions.)

So, Tsuki .... are you making the correlation between this "syndrome" and an individual's sexual orientation? From what I've read on the net concerning the phenomena, the jury is out as to whether it (BIID) is caused by a genetic abnormality, a neurological disease, or a psychological disorder, and I'm not sure that the gay and lesbian communities would appreciate the connection you have made between the two "conditions" (thus inferring that sexuality is also influenced by one of the causes above and is therefore unnatural or abnormal) and conclude that their behavior was beyond their control.

I personally do not think that homosexuality is genetically influenced (which some would use to excuse the acts and make the behavior "acceptable"), but a conscious choice made my an individual in defiance of social and religious mores. I've no doubt that some may find my personal opinion objectionable and will certainly condemn me for having dared to make my opinion public. So be it.... I don't seek your approval of my actions, why insist on my approval of yours?

Edited December 12, 2011 by Songster

[old_nick]

(I started this yesterday afternoon but had to leave before I could post, and though several have responded since then, my position has not been altered by their positions or opinions.)

So, Tsuki .... are you making the correlation between this "syndrome" and an individual's sexual orientation? From what I've read on the net concerning the phenomena, the jury is out as to whether it (BIID) is caused by a genetic abnormality, a neurological disease, or a psychological disorder, and I'm not sure that the gay and lesbian communities would appreciate the connection you have made between the two "conditions" (thus inferring that sexuality is also influenced by one of the causes above and is therefore unnatural or abnormal) and conclude that their behavior was beyond their control.

I personally do not think that homosexuality is genetically influenced (which some would use to excuse the acts and make the behavior "acceptable"), but a conscious choice made my an individual in defiance of social and religious mores. I've no doubt that some may find my personal opinion objectionable and will certainly condemn me for having dared to make my opinion public. So be it.... I don't seek your approval of my actions, why insist on my approval of yours?

Yes. After all, why care for what the evidence says when it is so much easier to make things up in order to cater to idiotic Bronze Age superstitions of a people that died of old age and terror at 35.

[Atwater Vitki]

Hyper,

Accepting Demented Norwegian Agitator's (and/or other assorted "A" words ) would fit on the list....I think...

Blessings of Peace,

[To`na Wanagi]

(I started this yesterday afternoon but had to leave before I could post, and though several have responded since then, my position has not been altered by their positions or opinions.)

So, Tsuki .... are you making the correlation between this "syndrome" and an individual's sexual orientation? From what I've read on the net concerning the phenomena, the jury is out as to whether it (BIID) is caused by a genetic abnormality, a neurological disease, or a psychological disorder, and I'm not sure that the gay and lesbian communities would appreciate the connection you have made between the two "conditions" (thus inferring that sexuality is also influenced by one of the causes above and is therefore unnatural or abnormal) and conclude that their behavior was beyond their control.

I personally do not think that homosexuality is genetically influenced (which some would use to excuse the acts and make the behavior "acceptable"), but a conscious choice made my an individual in defiance of social and religious mores. I've no doubt that some may find my personal opinion objectionable and will certainly condemn me for having dared to make my opinion public. So be it.... I don't seek your approval of my actions, why insist on my approval of yours?

So you are challenging the medical evidence of several of my own physicians proving beyond a doubt my own physiological anomalies which basically made me a two- gendered person? You are denying the existence of hermaphrodism? You are denying the proven medical fact of a male body possessing a female brain? Based on what? Religious indoctrination which states otherwise based on 6 thousand year old prejudices before the age of modern medicine? Come on Songster, I really don't think even you believe that...

My people even recognized and respected glbt members of their own tribes for over a few thousand years and appreciated the gifts and talents they shared with their communities.

[Qryos]

I personally do not think that homosexuality is genetically influenced (which some would use to excuse the acts and make the behavior "acceptable"), but a conscious choice made my an individual in defiance of social and religious mores.

~ Really Songster? You truly believe that people have desired to be ostrasized and abused & even killed simply because they wanted to be defiant?

Music choices, clothing & make-up & language & attitude generally can be quite annoying enough...

Our son-in-law's parents raised 3 sons beautifully. They divorced. They each found another person they love very much. Each of the same gender.

{ Yeah, odds are... }

Our Granddaughters are blessed with 3 Grandfathers & 3 Grandmothers & we all really do have a wonderful time together

My husband & I go out to dinner sometimes just with the in-law parents... So lovely to find friends in surprising ways!

Love, it's the most marvelous attachment. To be enriched & enrich another, to support & encourage & enable each other... Gender really doesn't enter that equation

[grateful]

with all due respect songster, I don't think anyone is looking for your approval here, they understand that you are, of course, free to believe what you choose to believe

what they are suggesting perhaps is that there is a tremendous amount of scientific study and citing personal experience to warrant a re-visiting of the popular "homosexual by choice" of popular opinion

without exception, my experience with friends in the lgbt community has been that they did not choose, any more than I did; granted, some chose to try "passing" and failed miserably (and unhappily...) they may have chosen to go to medical school, or to the Islands, they may have chosen to avoid tea or diet sodas but choosing their gender identity would be as easy as choosing their eye or skin color

~ Really Songster? You truly believe that people have desired to be ostrasized and abused & even killed simply because they wanted to be defiant?

Music choices, clothing & make-up & language & attitude generally can be quite annoying enough...

Our son-in-law's parents raised 3 sons beautifully. They divorced. They each found another person they love very much. Each of the same gender.

{ Yeah, odds are... }

Our Granddaughters are blessed with 3 Grandfathers & 3 Grandmothers & we all really do have a wonderful time together

My husband & I go out to dinner sometimes just with the in-law parents... So lovely to find friends in surprising ways!

Love, it's the most marvelous attachment. To be enriched & enrich another, to support & encourage & enable each other... Gender really doesn't enter that equation

this is lovely = you have lucky granddaughters!

Edited December 13, 2011 by grateful

[RabbiO]

with all due respect songster, I don't think anyone is looking for your approval here, they understand that you are, of course, free to believe what you choose to believe

what they are suggesting perhaps is that there is a tremendous amount of scientific study and citing personal experience to warrant a re-visiting of the popular "homosexual by choice" of popular opinion

without exception, my experience with friends in the lgbt community has been that they did not choose, any more than I did; granted, some chose to try "passing" and failed miserably (and unhappily...) they may have chosen to go to medical school, or to the Islands, they may have chosen to avoid tea or diet sodas but choosing their gender identity would be as easy as choosing their eye or skin color

I think, in order to be fair, that Songster should be allowed to present, if he so chooses, the reasons he has taken the position that he set forth above.

[grateful]

of course, rabbi

(and I did not mean to single songster out in any way, other than to offer an opinion on what he had stated here; I'm sure he comes to his conclusions honestly )

still, science and technology offer us some pretty solid proof, as does To'na's personal account here in this thread

just sayin'

[Hyper Real]

I personally do not think that homosexuality is genetically influenced (which some would use to excuse the acts and make the behavior "acceptable"), but a conscious choice made my an individual in defiance of social and religious mores. I've no doubt that some may find my personal opinion objectionable and will certainly condemn me for having dared to make my opinion public. So be it.... I don't seek your approval of my actions, why insist on my approval of yours?

Whether feelings of like and love are genetically influenced or not it is I think an entirely different matter than the choice of acting on those feelings.

Often I observe a double standard: "while homosexuality is 'obviously' genetic pedophilia is 'obviously' the concoction of a 'sick mind'".

There are the feelings and urges on the one side and the act on the other side.

God, I believe does not condemn feelings and urges as they are the voyages of our souls, however I believe God does not condone certain acts.

[BrDevon]

Careful... that post is right on the edge of being toxic.

In case you are wondering why, it is generally accepted that when discussing honosexual acts without qualifying them, we are at least discussing the actions of consenting adults of an age where they understand the actions in which they are engaged. Some may view those actions as sinful and others may not, but that is not the point. Paedophilia, on the other hand, involves someone who does not have the emotional maturity to consent to the actions in a meaningful way. Even if a child is old enough to engage in an action to please an adult, a sexual act with a child is not a game, which is why so many cultures make it an illegal act. It is sad that we are weeks away from 2012, and still the same tired arguement is dragged forth comparing homosexuality to paedophilia. Stand by... next comes bestiality (animals want unconditional love, but not quite that physically), and polygamy (though on that issue, I have no personal reason to dislike it, beyond the current laws of my area make it illegal. At least in the case of polygamy, all the participants are of an age to understand there is more than one significant other involved.)

[Hyper Real]

In case you are wondering why, it is generally accepted that when discussing honosexual acts without qualifying them, we are at least discussing the actions of consenting adults of an age where they understand the actions in which they are engaged. Some may view those actions as sinful and others may not, but that is not the point. Paedophilia, on the other hand, involves someone who does not have the emotional maturity to consent to the actions in a meaningful way.

I agree with that but what has consent to do with it being genetically influenced?

I think nature does not care about consent.

If the argument is that homosexuality is right because it is genetic then what about pedophilia?

still the same tired arguement is dragged forth comparing homosexuality to paedophilia.

Part of the argument was about genetics, so the only valid 'genetic excuse' is in the case of homosexuality?

And you think that is not a double standard?

Stand by... next comes bestiality (animals want unconditional love, but not quite that physically), and polygamy (though on that issue, I have no personal reason to dislike it, beyond the current laws of my area make it illegal. At least in the case of polygamy, all the participants are of an age to understand there is more than one significant other involved.)

So in other words you think it is toxic because I dare to compare homosexuality to other instances where feelings are involved that might be genetic as well?