Turnig Witches To Christ

[RabbiO]

No quibble necessary. I agree he was quoting the torah. However, I am led to understand that the wording in the Torah does not mean "neighbor" but refers to ones "fellow Jew". See:- http://www.inner.org/responsa/leter1/resp22.htm

However, I realize that what ever it may of originally meant it has grown since then both in the Judaism and other faiths too. It is also a very good quote (IMO) that is important to many.

I understand the comment, but if you look a little bit further down the page so to speak to verse 34 of Levitcus 19 -

כְּאֶזְרָח מִכֶּם יִהְיֶה לָכֶם הַגֵּר הַגָּר אִתְּכֶם, וְאָהַבְתָּ לוֹ כָּמוֹךָ--כִּי-גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם, בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם

You will see that in actuality the commandment is more inclusive than it may appear at first blush.

Edited June 11, 2010 by RabbiO

[Pete]

I understand the comment, but if you look a little bit further down the page so to speak to verse 34 of Levitcus 19 -

כְּאֶזְרָח מִכֶּם יִהְיֶה לָכֶם הַגֵּר הַגָּר אִתְּכֶם, וְאָהַבְתָּ לוֹ כָּמוֹךָ--כִּי-גֵ רִים הֱיִיתֶם, בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם

You will see that in actuality the commandment is more inclusive than it may appear at first blush.

Oh I have no doubt that it now does refer to all within the faith or outside it but the verse you mention only refers to aliens living with a Jew. As i understand it, it still does not refer to loving all who are not Jews or not living with Jews.

[Fawzo]

Evil is allowed so that ...........

...whatever the reason the fact is that it is allowed because God wills it so. It serves his purpose or pleasure.

Sure, God could destroy the bad, but since we've all been infected with sin, what would be left? I believe God wants to purify the bad blood, not destroy it.

God could have stopped and pre-empted any infection before it began. Instead of creating Christ as the propitiation for sin, he could have given his new creation a measles or polio shot. So once again it is clear that evil is a tool God is using for his own purpose.

Technically yes, but my point was that this is not the way God operates. I guess its important for a person to know why they're being condemned or rewarded, otherwise it would be like correcting or rewarding a kid for something they haven't done. What kind of judge does that?

A judge that really cares about the pain and suffering of sentient beings and does all that he can to keep it to a minimum. If God saw that I was going to lose my mind one day and do something stupid like burn down lets say the Westboro Baptist church full of trapped parishoners I would surely hope that he would take me out of this world before I would cause such pain and suffering.

I basically agree, God allowed into the program what is allowed in, but the worms (sins) are activated by our own desire, not Gods. If sin was forced into the program, why wasn't Jesus infected?

The key word being activated. Which means the programming was dormant but the parameters were still there for when situations arose that the programmer forsaw. Either that or he left holes and openings and his Omniscince was lacking when certain random events would eventually occur and Sin activated and infected the whole Earth PC.

One argument I once entertained my own self for the existence of sin was that everything God created was good but that certain good elements which when combined made something deadly. A good example is carbon and oxygen. Two of the essential elements of almost all life on our planet, but yet if one carbon atom bonds with one oxygen atom we get CO which is carbon monoxide and is deadly.

The problem with this reasoning once again fails when one considers Ominiscience. Omniscience, good and evil is very difficult to justify no matter what deity one serves.

[Vortex]

Please pray for me in my struggle. i am attempting to get two wiccans (witches) to turn to God. it has been a long battle but i am slowly beating the powers of satan.! i am winning with Gods help. however i need all the prayers i can get.

Although the originator of this post has left, according to some of you who replied to me, I may as well contribute my two cents also. I can understand where the thread originator was coming from. "Savedinchrist" was apparently taught as most Christians who have not been exposed to anything other than mainstream evangelical doctrine, which encourages to make converts. From his only post, it was apparent that he believed he was doing the right thing to help two Wiccans, which he believed were on the wrong path, to change their belief to agree with his own. He of course meant well. As I thought about his above request, it was clear to me that he did not study his Bible as well as he should have. If he believed the individuals he was trying to influence were on an evil path, he should have realized that not even Christ Himself tried to convert Satan or any demonic entity he expelled in cases of possession. According to Scripture, Satan is wiser than any human being anyway, and the struggle with Satan is one in which only His eternal enemy, Christ, is prepared to meet. In my estimation, what is important for Christians to accomplish, as with anyone else, is to practice goodness wherever possible and rid oneself of one's own demons. If we do right and set examples of goodness for others, this is enough. And in so doing perhaps, just perhaps, a few will, by contrast, examine their own heart and soul and move towards making a change for the better in their own lives.

Am interesting story. About 8 to 9 years ago, on this ULC forum, I came across a thread started by a "Satanic Church Members" who was backed by another from his belief system. They were both being battered with hostility by other ULC members. I felt pretty bad about it and thought I'd join in and try to help change the atmosphere from anger to more positive constructive dialogged. I began by asking respectful questions of the Satanic Church members that others had bot thought of yet. The conversation turned to a quite friendly, interesting, and more productive discussion for everyone; they didn't have to flee. There were things I didn't agree with concerning Satanic Church philosophy. But before I set out to point out what my disagreements were, I took the trouble to purchase, read, and study the "Satanic Bible." Wouldn't you know that after pointing out contradictions between the belief and practice of the Satanic Bible author and founder of the First Church of Satan, Anton LaVey, the two Satanic members found themselves in agreement with me. After six months of friendly conversation exchanges, everyone moved on. Two years later, I was invited to join ULC Tribal, and did so. When I introduced myself to say hello as a new member, to my surprise, those same two Satanists welcomed me to the forum. They remembered me, which was a nice feeling. They then reminded me of that thread on this ULC forum. To my amazement, they both informed me that their conversation with me had opened their eyes to questions about their beliefs they had not thought about. Then they informed me that the six month discussion we had had helped change their lives, and they had changed to what they believed was a more meaningful spiritual path for them, their wives, and their children. They expressed their thanks.

My basic point is that "Savedinchrist" may have started out with the wrong approach and didn't have enough experience with people to remain on board and learn how he could have turned his topic post into something meaningful for him. David may have placed himself in a position of confrontation with Wiccans, without first having learned what their ways and philosophies were. He most likely forced his opponents into taking a defensive stand rather than applying a wiser approach where everyone can take away something positive from his mission. I'm sure we all agree that when different belief systems clash nothing good ever comes of it. But good words and questions well though out in any struggle are like seeds that in due course germinate in the heart and soul of good people, and such people will come to their own fork in the word where they must make a choice.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Vortex

[Dan56]

God could have stopped and pre-empted any infection before it began. Instead of creating Christ as the propitiation for sin, he could have given his new creation a measles or polio shot. So once again it is clear that evil is a tool God is using for his own purpose.

If God preempted, it would have interfered with free-will. Intervening to prevent sin/evil eliminates choice. This would defeat the purpose of testing us.

If God saw that I was going to lose my mind one day and do something stupid like burn down lets say the Westboro Baptist church full of trapped parishoners I would surely hope that he would take me out of this world before I would cause such pain and suffering.

If your intent was to actually burn down the Westboro Baptist Church, I think God would extend your life long enough to get the job done

The problem with this reasoning once again fails when one considers Ominiscience. Omniscience, good and evil is very difficult to justify no matter what deity one serves.

Evil is essentially disobedience to God, and its a voluntary choice. Revelation 12:4 says that Satan rebelled and a third of God's children sided with him. So evil (disobedience) began before the creation of mankind, it originated with angels who had knowledge of both good and evil, along with free-choice.

[Fawzo]

Evil is essentially disobedience to God, and its a voluntary choice. Revelation 12:4 says that Satan rebelled and a third of God's children sided with him. So evil (disobedience) began before the creation of mankind, it originated with angels who had knowledge of both good and evil, along with free-choice.

Dan according to your logic it had to begin before even the creation of Satan within the mind of God. For Satan to have had free will then according to you the choice of evil have had to already existed within the mind of God.

God could not judge anything as Good unless there was Evil to compare it to.

Free will will, evil, duality all had their source within the mind of God or Divinity. We are merely creations of His mind working within the paremeters that the Master Program has initiated. We are like a computer whos basic language is 1 or 0. We have the choice of 1 which is ego and fear and 0 which is selfless love. Duality, the whole good-evil, male-female, hot and cold all came into being when the "Zeros" became " I AM" and the 1 came about. This is my belief.

There is nothing that is not God and the did not have it origins in God's mind, unless you can come up with another being that creates.

There is no question in my mind that evil came from God's mind and must have a purpose. The question is why and your concept of testing us fails miserably in my eyes. The only partialy reasonable explanation I can see for its existence is sheer "Experience" as Eternity is a very long time for God.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Fawzo

[Vortex]

Hello Fawzo & Dan54,

I have a question to pose to both of you.

Let me first preface with the following. In the Old Testament, we find that God is intolerent of anything opposing his will. God will even go so far as displaying great anger and destroy that which disagrees with Him. In the New Testament we find that Jesus presents a different God, one who is loving and patient. Jesus goes as far as stating to Sanhedrin opposition that hold to Old Testament Mosaic beliefs, "You are of your father the Devil." Then we look at the Old testament story of Job, and here we find ourselves reaing about a wager going on bewtween God and Satan concerning this poor fellow, Job. The wager allows for the destruction of Jobs family to prove a point in the wager.

Now considering that humankind can also be good or evil, and created this way, and that humankind displays a conscious and subconscious, and recognizes both darkness and light much like God does, isn't it then possible that what we in humanity recognize and define as "chaos" (Satan, evil, negativity) is a manifestation of God's own subconscious mind, an area in God's mind that plays a background role in His own creative forces, and that He (like us) has no absolute power to regulate over that side of His own spirit nature?

[Fawzo]

Now considering that humankind can also be good or evil, and created this way, and that humankind displays a conscious and subconscious, and recognizes both darkness and light much like God does, isn't it then possible that what we in humanity recognize and define as "chaos" (Satan, evil, negativity) is a manifestation of God's own subconscious mind, an area in God's mind that plays a background role in His own creative forces, and that He (like us) has no absolute power to regulate over that side of His own spirit nature?

Hi Vortex,

First I liked to say that I don't see "chaos" as being evil at all since all ordered systems can arise from it. I do understand what you are suggesting and while anything is possible when conjecturing about God's mindest, your suggestion seems to paint God as schizophrenic.

What seems a little more plausible to me along those lines is that maybe God could have both a feminine and masculine aspect. The Anima and Animus where the Anima exhibits the loving kind compassion of the feminine that includes intuitive processes, creativity and imagination, and psychic sensitivity and the Animus which is all powerful the athlete/muscleman/thug and the professor/cleric — "the planner" and "the guide".

Maybe he responds to us in whichever of these modes we approach him with.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Fawzo

[RevTom]

Then you have seen the error in your earlier statement that evil needed to exist for there to be free will?

Yes for the sake of those going to hell sounds rather ridiculous to me.

The human body seeks out and destroys bad blood cells beofre they are allowed to effect the body. Are you telling me God couldn't do the same with souls before they are allowed to infect our whole system.

Of course a person can be codemned and rewarded for what they would have done if the Judge has omniscience.

Do you think Omniscience is flawed in some way? I don't think you fully comprehend the full totality of Omniscience if you can make that statement.

Because as all your previous statements add up to "IT IS GOD'S OMNIPOTENT WILL" He wouldn't have it any other way, because if he would have it any other way guess which way it would be.

He is the Master Programmer and any viruses or worms that exist within his programs are there because he programmed them in. Unless you believe in another Super Master Programmer who can infect your Master Programmers system without his knowledge which would mean your Master Programmer is not all that Omniscient in the first place.

Next time you read Isaiah 45:5-7 keep these thoughts in mind and drop the whole calamity apologetic. It doesn't work.

The concept of being born in sin and that "all have fallen short..." is mainly Judeo-Christian-Islam thought. Why do we have to think in those terms? Witchcraft/Wicca believes that good/evil, positive /negative are continuums of the same thread. We experience it ourselves-there are some instances in which we-who may be fundamentally good, are drawn to commit negative acts if pushed hard enough...I do not believe in Hell, or incarnate sin...another facet of some religions that make no sense to me. When Witches (and I will just refer to witch instead of witch/warlock)/Wiccans transgress the bounds of good will and humanity, we are sanctioned by the coven/governing body we belong to, and face our actions straightforwardly: No threats of everlasting damnation-just owning our transgressions and wherever possible, atoning -in very real and in the present-for our deeds.

[Bro. Hex]

Then you have seen the error in your earlier statement that evil needed to exist for there to be free will?

Uh....actually Fawz, old boy, I think that was my line.

see post #137 in which I said:

"And the necessary corollary: Free-will could not exist without Evil.

That's something to ponder, isn't it? "

[Fawzo]

Uh....actually Fawz, old boy, I think that was my line.

see post #137 in which I said:

"And the necessary corollary: Free-will could not exist without Evil.

That's something to ponder, isn't it? "

Dan also stated "Its my opinion that we freely choose evil (sin). Freewill has everything to do with evil, evil could not exist without free-will. I agree that God sets the parameters, he allows what he allows and is in complete control. "

You guys can haggle over who owns the copyrights later

[Dan56]

Now considering that humankind can also be good or evil, and created this way, and that humankind displays a conscious and subconscious, and recognizes both darkness and light much like God does, isn't it then possible that what we in humanity recognize and define as "chaos" (Satan, evil, negativity) is a manifestation of God's own subconscious mind, an area in God's mind that plays a background role in His own creative forces, and that He (like us) has no absolute power to regulate over that side of His own spirit nature?

Jesus demonstrated that he had absolute power over evil, and he knew no sin. "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all"(1 John 1:5).

Dan according to your logic it had to begin before even the creation of Satan within the mind of God. For Satan to have had free will then according to you the choice of evil have had to already existed within the mind of God.

God is all-knowing, but there is no evil in him. "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee"(Psalms 5:4). God did not create evil itself, what he created was the potential for evil, because It exist within the freedom of choice. So evil emanates from within ourselves, it was not created by God. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord"(Isaiah 55:8).

[Fawzo]

The concept of being born in sin and that "all have fallen short..." is mainly Judeo-Christian-Islam thought. Why do we have to think in those terms? Witchcraft/Wicca believes that good/evil, positive /negative are continuums of the same thread. We experience it ourselves-there are some instances in which we-who may be fundamentally good, are drawn to commit negative acts if pushed hard enough...I do not believe in Hell, or incarnate sin...another facet of some religions that make no sense to me. When Witches (and I will just refer to witch instead of witch/warlock)/Wiccans transgress the bounds of good will and humanity, we are sanctioned by the coven/governing body we belong to, and face our actions straightforwardly: No threats of everlasting damnation-just owning our transgressions and wherever possible, atoning -in very real and in the present-for our deeds.

I do not buy into much of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim reality. I know many hold to it, but for me it is nothing more the anthropomorphizational concepts of late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age men. Not necessarily Goat Herders though

I took a two mile morning meditation hike yesterday and three mile afternoon hike yesterday and twirled some concepts around in my mind and this is what I came up with on good and evil and God.

There is Beingness and Becomingness. The Bliss and Joy one experiences in estatic moments is the sheer experience of Beingness. These experiences occur most often when the vibrations and fears of Becomingness cease.

In Beingness there is no fear or deisre, just the sheer Bliss of Being. Something or vibration , somehow arises within the felicity of Bliss and the concept of Becomingness aka Ego emerges with its Desire to Become. This Becomingness is the Ego with its desire to be seperate from Sheer Beingness and be something other than what it already is.

These desires of Becomingness lead to the fears of failure and these fears lead to all the actions and thoughts we humans deem as Evil. I think every action we deem as Evil will be found to be based on the fears of someone desiring to be or have something they don't have or are.

Now I see why I feel the lefthanded path of Wicca and other traditions is so evil and foolish. It is the vain attempt at becoming something greater than one can possibly be. It is based on the desire to be greater than the Divine. Instead of flowing with the flow one trys to subvert the flow for one's own purposes.

So unless it is possible for the Divine to evolve, which would mean it isn't perfect in any way and is some sort of dynamic changing field of pure potential, then Ego and all lefthanded path systems are doomed to fail.

My question now becomes are humans lefthanded path entities themselves and how in a perefct state of Bliss and Beingness does that first vibration or conscious thought of becomingness arise?

God is all-knowing, but there is no evil in him. "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee"(Psalms 5:4). God did not create evil itself, what he created was the potential for evil, because It exist within the freedom of choice. So evil emanates from within ourselves, it was not created by God. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord"(Isaiah 55:8).

What about all the verses where God repents for the evil thoughts and actions he incurred upon his chosen people???

Do I need to repost them all again?

[RevTom]

Although the originator of this post has left, according to some of you who replied to me, I may as well contribute my two cents also. I can understand where the thread originator was coming from. "Savedinchrist" was apparently taught as most Christians who have not been exposed to anything other than mainstream evangelical doctrine, which encourages to make converts. From his only post, it was apparent that he believed he was doing the right thing to help two Wiccans, which he believed were on the wrong path, to change their belief to agree with his own. He of course meant well. As I thought about his above request, it was clear to me that he did not study his Bible as well as he should have. If he believed the individuals he was trying to influence were on an evil path, he should have realized that not even Christ Himself tried to convert Satan or any demonic entity he expelled in cases of possession. According to Scripture, Satan is wiser than any human being anyway, and the struggle with Satan is one in which only His eternal enemy, Christ, is prepared to meet. In my estimation, what is important for Christians to accomplish, as with anyone else, is to practice goodness wherever possible and rid oneself of one's own demons. If we do right and set examples of goodness for others, this is enough. And in so doing perhaps, just perhaps, a few will, by contrast, examine their own heart and soul and move towards making a change for the better in their own lives.

Am interesting story. About 8 to 9 years ago, on this ULC forum, I came across a thread started by a "Satanic Church Members" who was backed by another from his belief system. They were both being battered with hostility by other ULC members. I felt pretty bad about it and thought I'd join in and try to help change the atmosphere from anger to more positive constructive dialogged. I began by asking respectful questions of the Satanic Church members that others had bot thought of yet. The conversation turned to a quite friendly, interesting, and more productive discussion for everyone; they didn't have to flee. There were things I didn't agree with concerning Satanic Church philosophy. But before I set out to point out what my disagreements were, I took the trouble to purchase, read, and study the "Satanic Bible." Wouldn't you know that after pointing out contradictions between the belief and practice of the Satanic Bible author and founder of the First Church of Satan, Anton LaVey, the two Satanic members found themselves in agreement with me. After six months of friendly conversation exchanges, everyone moved on. Two years later, I was invited to join ULC Tribal, and did so. When I introduced myself to say hello as a new member, to my surprise, those same two Satanists welcomed me to the forum. They remembered me, which was a nice feeling. They then reminded me of that thread on this ULC forum. To my amazement, they both informed me that their conversation with me had opened their eyes to questions about their beliefs they had not thought about. Then they informed me that the six month discussion we had had helped change their lives, and they had changed to what they believed was a more meaningful spiritual path for them, their wives, and their children. They expressed their thanks.

My basic point is that "Savedinchrist" may have started out with the wrong approach and didn't have enough experience with people to remain on board and learn how he could have turned his topic post into something meaningful for him. David may have placed himself in a position of confrontation with Wiccans, without first having learned what their ways and philosophies were. He most likely forced his opponents into taking a defensive stand rather than applying a wiser approach where everyone can take away something positive from his mission. I'm sure we all agree that when different belief systems clash nothing good ever comes of it. But good words and questions well though out in any struggle are like seeds that in due course germinate in the heart and soul of good people, and such people will come to their own fork in the word where they must make a choice.

...and the main emphasis-as you pointed out-should be 1st to conquer one's own demons. Any spiritual path should be to seek a means to understand and grow in her/his journey, recognizing the finiteness of this physical plane: When people embark on a particular path, sometimes they are so moved by their revelations and epiphanies and exuberance they feel compelled to sing its praises to the world. When this is done without 1st having a good knowledge base of their chosen path, they undertake a task for which they are ill prepared-this is particularly so in religions/spiritual paths that place strong emphasis on proselytising. I have met many people who could qoute reams of scripture, but were at odds with understanding much of it. I enjoy good discourse- sometimes to share a viewpoint that others may not have considered, and sometimes I alter my stance/belief about the given subject. The exchanges serve to-and to be meaningful-must be to challenge and cement one's personal beliefs, and to use the discourse to further one's journey and understanding-all life is a lesson and while my main beliefs are set, it is the fleshing out of these beliefs-being introduced to ideas that had not before been considered, that make the journey one of broader horizons: While I hold no ill will toward any particular spiritual path, I have studied many, and have set sail on that which resonates most clearly- and to no smaill degree, because of the affinity I feel toward my roots in ancient Scotland and Britain, bring me to its Druid/Celtic begiinnings.

...just a little quirk of mine-but is there a way to correct the title of this forum to have its correct spelling..turning..in Turning Witches to Christ-like I say-no biggy-just a quirk of mine-

[Bro. Hex]

Dan also stated "Its my opinion that we freely choose evil (sin). Freewill has everything to do with evil, evil could not exist without free-will. I agree that God sets the parameters, he allows what he allows and is in complete control. "

You guys can haggle over who owns the copyrights later

This gave me one hell of a belly laugh, which did my hay fever no good at all...

I nearly choked myself blue.

But at least it cleared out my sinuses for a spell!

But please...hold up on the zinger lines until the pollen passes???

Edited June 13, 2010 by Hexalpa

[RevTom]

This gave me one hell of a belly laugh, which did my hay fever no good at all...

I nearly choked myself blue.

But at least it cleared out my sinuses for a spell!

But please...hold up on the zinger lines until the pollen passes???

Evil-a christian/Judeo/Islamic (mostly) concotion-has no meaning for me, a Warlock

[Fawzo]

This gave me one hell of a belly laugh, which did my hay fever no good at all...

I nearly choked myself blue.

But at least it cleared out my sinuses for a spell!

But please...hold up on the zinger lines until the pollen passes???

I'll try.

I started having trouble with pollen last year and I went to Walgreens and purchased a small $15 tube of that stuff you rub on your upper lip and outside of your nose and it worked great for me. Mine pollen reactions may not have been as severe as yours is.

[RevTom]

I'll try.

I started having trouble with pollen last year and I went to Walgreens and purchased a small $15 tube of that stuff you rub on your upper lip and outside of your nose and it worked great for me. Mine pollen reactions may not have been as severe as yours is.

...so will HOT-as in chinese mustard, cayenne peppers-Cinese food, and it is a lot more fun to medicate with

[RevRainbow]

I'll try.

I started having trouble with pollen last year and I went to Walgreens and purchased a small $15 tube of that stuff you rub on your upper lip and outside of your nose and it worked great for me. Mine pollen reactions may not have been as severe as yours is.

So all that pollen accumulates on your upper lip and outer nose? Some mustache!

[Bro. Hex]

Isn't turning Witches to Christ

on sort of an equal par with

Turning a CHRISTIAN into A FROG ???

Both sound like some sort of WITCHCRAFT to me

Or am I jest being WICCA'd ???

Edited June 13, 2010 by Hexalpa