Turnig Witches To Christ

[Tsukino_Rei]

I would argue that a Christian turned atheist was never a 'strong' believer in Christianity in the first place.

It's remarkable how many people like to argue that if someone has left their religion they were never 'really' part of it to begin with. But it's a sweeping generalization and it's impossible to know. I am certain that there are a great many former true followers of Christianity who have been led away from Christianity BECAUSE their devotion led them to be open to the spiritual and intellectual transformation necessary to leave.

I have sung songs of praise in which every word and tone that left my lips was a prayer and meditation until my very skin and teeth vibrated in attunement to deity. I have studied the Bible with humility, prayerfully and meditatively and without personal prejudice entirely willing and expecting to be led to new understanding by the Holy Spirit.

I have walked in prayer, enveloped by the presence of Deity.

I have supplicated myself at the alter and meant every word and emotion as I dedicated my life, my heart, and my mind.

If I now question how many of those experiences might have somatic explanations, be a product of mental conditioning, whether religions tap into a portion of our psyche through symbology that give us access to greater physiological control and deeper thought or am CERTAIN that at the very least all religions seek and find equally and are paths to the same end -

you cannot tell me that my faith was not genuine.

By your reasoning I might assume that all those who are still Christians are faithless cowards. But I know better.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[panpareil]

It is possible that a person can grow out of their religious beliefs.

Even those who are rigid can be pushed to epiphany by life events.

Facing a traumatic event can cause you to change, integrating the experience.

This can be both into and out of atheism.

What religious communities provide is a way to channel these experiences to reinforce community beliefs,

embedding a person deeper in their beliefs and community. This is usually a good thing.

I don't know where I'm going with this. I think I need more coffee.

[Fawzo]

Nothing makes my beliefs any more valid than anyone else's. I have scrutinized my beliefs closely, and have found them to be believable

I would argue that a Christian turned atheist was never a 'strong' believer in Christianity in the first place.

Dan you could make that argument and while it may be true for some I know it fails miserably in many cases.

Today is Sunday and I wager if I stood outside of ten churches today and asked those leaving basic questions about the formation of scripture and their belief system if even one out of 1000 of them knew the answer I would be truly shocked!!!

Like why are there 4 Gospels and what was the name of the early church father who first gave reason why there should be 4 gospels and what were the reasons. How many have any knowledge of the J, E, P and D hypothesis? How many would say Matthew was the first Gospel written?

They simply don't know and never cared enough to even investigate the roots of a belief system they place their total trust in. They are like hungry fish swimming who bit and swallowed whole the first baited lure they encountered and are led about by it the rest of their lives.

So you are saying these people are more Christian than those who cared so much more that they spent much of their lives investigating every tidbit of knowledge they could find about the RELIGION THEY LOVED!!!!

I have heard it stated many times that there is a saying among the intelligenstia "that the more Christians study and have knowledge about their Bibles, the less Christians there will be"

This might very well hold true for many belief systems as well.

So your argument that a believer who turned atheist was never "a strong" believer only holds true if you recognize that they cared enough that these people even had "stronger belief"

Faith is a miserably poor argument as well. Faith in what Zeus, Aphrodite, Allah, Mongi? One has to scrutinize what one has faith in and that is exactly what many of these folks who have turned agnostic and atheist have done. They have seen evidence which proves to them that Christianity is nothing more than nonsensical superstition developed by man and for man. Just because the masses have been led to believe something doesn't make it truth no matter how many times the lie is told and even if whole cultures believe it so. Flat earth belief is a perfect example where knowledge shed a light on an erroneous belief shared by many.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Fawzo

[emalpaiz]

I have scrutinized my beliefs closely, and have found them to be believable

I have also scrutinized my beliefs closely, and I have also found them to be believable.

I think that if I asked a devout Muslim if he/she had scrutinized his/her Islamic beliefs, that Mulim would probably say that he/she had found them to be believable. I would probably get the same answer from a devout Parsi, Buddhist, Jew, etc. That is why we have so many religions.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

Edited May 17, 2010 by murphzlaw1

[Fawzo]

I have scrutinized my beliefs closely, and have found them to be believable

I have also scrutinized my beliefs closely, and I have also found them to be believable.

I think that if I asked a devout Muslim if he/she had scrutinized his/her Islamic beliefs, that Mulim would probably say that he/she had found them to be believable. I would probably get the same answer from a devout Parsi, Buddhist, Jew, etc. That is why we have so many religions.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

There is no doubt this is the case and it seems that if there is only one objective truth, then the cognitive tools that humans use to decide what is believable and true are very faulty.

Our beliefs are based on our personal experiences filtered through the lens of our world views. Most of our world views we adopt from our parents and the cultures in which we live.

emalpaiz I would like to ask you if there are any major aspects of your belief system which you question frequently when you look at the chaotic randomness of our Universe and life in general?

[Pete]

I have scrutinized my beliefs closely, and have found them to be believable

I have also scrutinized my beliefs closely, and I have also found them to be believable.

I think that if I asked a devout Muslim if he/she had scrutinized his/her Islamic beliefs, that Mulim would probably say that he/she had found them to be believable. I would probably get the same answer from a devout Parsi, Buddhist, Jew, etc. That is why we have so many religions.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

Something that is believable is not necessarily the truth. It is amazing how many things people take for granted that turn out to be untrue. That is one of the reasons I have respect for those who describe something as their belief rather than tell everyone that their belief is the only true one. Something they can not prove to anyone but themselves (IMO).

[Dan56]

I am certain that there are a great many former true followers of Christianity who have been led away from Christianity BECAUSE their devotion led them to be open to the spiritual and intellectual transformation necessary to leave.

If I now question how many of those experiences might have somatic explanations, be a product of mental conditioning, whether religions tap into a portion of our psyche through symbology that give us access to greater physiological control and deeper thought or am CERTAIN that at the very least all religions seek and find equally and are paths to the same end -

you cannot tell me that my faith was not genuine.

After witnessing the miracles God performed while delivering his people from the Pharaoh, many of the Hebrews began worshipping a golden calf in the wilderness. Do you suppose their faith was questionable, or was it their devotion to God that led them to find the intellectual wisdom necessary to leave the God who delivered them from slavery? From what I've read, faith in idols was not a religious path that led to a good end.

My point was not that a person can't lose faith in something they once believed in, but that faith so easily shaken was probably never very strong to begin with.

Today is Sunday and I wager if I stood outside of ten churches today and asked those leaving basic questions about the formation of scripture and their belief system if even one out of 1000 of them knew the answer I would be truly shocked!!!

They simply don't know and never cared enough to even investigate the roots of a belief system they place their total trust in. .

So you are saying these people are more Christian than those who cared so much more that they spent much of their lives investigating every tidbit of knowledge they could find about the RELIGION THEY LOVED!!!!

Faith is a miserably poor argument as well. Faith in what Zeus, Aphrodite, Allah, Mongi? One has to scrutinize what one has faith in and that is exactly what many of these folks who have turned agnostic and atheist have done. They have seen evidence which proves to them that Christianity is nothing more than nonsensical superstition developed by man and for man.

Testing church goers is not necessarily a good measurement of their faith, in fact, having perfect knowledge pretty much removes the necessity of trust. Belief can be derived from inspiration as well as knowledge, and faith requires accepting a truth without verifiable facts. If a person scrutinizes, investigates, and seeks evidence to prove a belief, that's curiosity, not faith. For myself, I chose to believe the gospel because I loved the message, then my faith increased with greater understanding. We believe what we love, and we understand what we see. If we seek evidence to persuade ourselves to disbelieve, we'll generally find what were looking for. And if we seek wisdom to understand what we believe, we'll generally find the Truth.

I have also scrutinized my beliefs closely, and I have also found them to be believable.

I think that if I asked a devout Muslim if he/she had scrutinized his/her Islamic beliefs, that Mulim would probably say that he/she had found them to be believable. I would probably get the same answer from a devout Parsi, Buddhist, Jew, etc. That is why we have so many religions.

This is true, we all believe what we believe. But how many God's are there? If there is one God, would that God be content with those who believe and worship a different God? Does Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and Judaism all lead to the same God? That's the argument I guess; Many beliefs that lead to different Gods, or one Truth that leads to one God? I personally believe the latter.

[Tsukino_Rei]

After witnessing the miracles God performed while delivering his people from the Pharaoh, many of the Hebrews began worshipping a golden calf in the wilderness. Do you suppose their faith was questionable, or was it their devotion to God that led them to find the intellectual wisdom necessary to leave the God who delivered them from slavery? From what I've read, faith in idols was not a religious path that led to a good end.

My point was not that a person can't lose faith in something they once believed in, but that faith so easily shaken was probably never very strong to begin with.

What you describe is not faith, it's suspended disbelief. Faith seeks and questions without fear or shame. There is no such thing as blind faith. Faith is Sight. Faith for faith's sake, with no understanding or 'curiosity' is just another Golden Calf.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[Fawzo]

Testing church goers is not necessarily a good measurement of their faith, in fact, having perfect knowledge pretty much removes the necessity of trust.

Dan the point isn't to test their faith. The point is to see what is the basis for a person to place their faith in one specific system over all the others.

Do you buy the first car you see from the first salesman and pitch you hear? No and yet many people have done just that by placing their faith in the only religion and sales pitch they have been enculturnated with.

Belief can be derived from inspiration as well as knowledge, and faith requires accepting a truth without verifiable facts.

Knowledge supercedes and replaces belief. Once one has knowledge of something belief is no longer necessary.

Blind faith requires accepting a truth without any type of evidence. Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate and many other cults become filled with people foolish enough to follow a belief system blindly.

If one can't question and scrutinize one's faith in a belief system then one has no faith whatsoever in that system! The strongest faith is achieved by scrutinizing ones faith deeply and seeing it stand unscathed by all challenges!!!

If a person scrutinizes, investigates, and seeks evidence to prove a belief, that's curiosity, not faith.

No when a person tests the spirits it is called wisdom, else you wind up like Eve believing everything anyone ever tells you. Only a mindless moron does that!!!!

For myself, I chose to believe the gospel because I loved the message, then my faith increased with greater understanding. We believe what we love, and we understand what we see. If we seek evidence to persuade ourselves to disbelieve, we'll generally find what were looking for. And if we seek wisdom to understand what we believe, we'll generally find the Truth.

You said you chose to believe because you "loved the message" and that is not surprising. Your choice was an emotional one and not based on logic. The Christian service has been refined over the centuries to instill a psychosomatic type experience. Talk to the leader of the choir and band in your church and they most likely will tell you they know what music pieces to play to instill whatever emotion it is they wish to get the sheep to baa to. I had this every discussion with the leader of our music group when I went to Central Christian Assembly of God.

And yes it is true that you find what you seek more often than not. When I was a believer I found only those scriptures which reinforced my beliefs that the Bible was the perfect inspired word of God. Now I see the Bible as Bronze Age reworked and borrowed stories of ignorant men in most instances and find many such reinforcements to back my belief. I still believe in a Divine being though who loves us and gives us free will.

Truth though will stand unblemished by any slings and arrows and as much inquisition as any human can conjure up. It just matters whether you care about finding the truth or reinforcing your own truth.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

What you describe is not faith, it's suspended disbelief. Faith seeks and questions without fear or shame. There is no such thing as blind faith. Faith is Sight. Faith for faith's sake, with no understanding or 'curiosity' is just another Golden Calf.

Hebrews 11 gives us a good definition of faith. Faith is the substance of what you believe to be true. Faith is not just a mental conviction, it is activated by what we say and do. Belief is the acceptance of the Truth and faith is a conviction to the Truth. We profess our believe and demonstrate our faith.

Truth though will stand unblemished by any slings and arrows and as much inquisition as any human can conjure up.

So what is the Truth? Who could possibly stand unblemished? (John 18:37-38)

[Fawzo]

So what is the Truth? Who could possibly stand unblemished? (John 18:37-38)

Wish I knew so I could offer it to others. The best I can do so far is eliminate the ones that don't hold up to close scrutiny, and what I have found is that I now understand why so many who once believed so deeply now label themselves as agnostics.

God should be held acountable for every religion and denomination that exists and the crimes done under those divisions if he/she/it is Omniscient. Clearly he should have made his Word and his will nore clearly understandable so that all the different interpretations did not exist. Having foreknowledge of the effects of the confusuion His Word would cause and the horrific results it would create, he didn't change the Word itself or the level of our ability to comprehend it correctly. He clearly can not stand guilt free of the problem that exists. Many have spent entire lifetimes seeking in various belief systems.

[Tsukino_Rei]

Hebrews 11 does give a good definition, and it's the one I'm using. Faith in Hebrews chapter 11 is belief in what is seen with ones spiritual eyes and ears, the Truth that is written in the heart, and is born not out of blind faith to what is written in a book or what someone else tells you is true but out of direct spiritual interaction and this is evidenced in every single example used in the chapter to illustrate that little description of faith at the top of the chapter.

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

It's easy to misconstrue this as saying that the modern definition of Faith as merely suspended disbelief until one reads the entire chapter. I went further and did a study by reading in conjuction to each section the original story of each example faithful individual.

4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Given the apparent incongruence between the examples given and the statement made I thought this deserved further study. So I did! (about a decade ago give or take)

Hbr 11:1 Now [G1161] faith [G4102] is [G2076] (5748) the substance [G5287] of things hoped for [G1679] (5746), the evidence [G1650] of things [G4229] not [G3756] seen [G991] (5746).

Faith - Pistis - Persuasion

G-4102. pistis, pis'-tis;

from G-3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; mor. conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), espec. reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstr. constancy in such profession; by extens. the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Things Hoped For - Elpizo

G-1679. elpizo, el-pid'-zo;

from G-1680; to expect or confide:--(have, thing) hope (-d) (for), trust.

Evidence - Elegchos

G-1650. elegchos, el'-eng-khos;

from G-1651; proof, conviction:--evidence, reproof.

Understand - Noieo

G-3539. noieo, noy-eh'-o;

from G-3563; to exercise the mind (observe), i.e. (fig.) to comprehend, heed:--consider, perceive, think, understand.

Substance - Hupostasis

G-5287. hupostasis, hoop-os'-tas-is;

from a comp. of {A.}G-5259 and {B.}G-2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (fig.) concr. essence, or abstr. assurance (obj. or subj.):--confidence, confident, person, substance.

So here's my translation.

Now Pistis [persuasion] is the foundation [hupostasis] of confidence [elpizo], the proof [Elegchos] of things not seen.

Persuasion is an interactive process, as is shown in the examples provided in the chapter. Furthermore it engages the mind.

What do other translations suggest? How easy is it for offical translators to inject a given Churches theology into the text. (and yes I am aware that it will and should be pointed out that I may well be doing the same thing).

World Wide English New Testament

1If people believe God, then they know they have the things they hope to get. It is the proof of things we do not see.

2There were people long ago believed God. He said they were good because they believed him.

3We believe in God, so that is how we know that God made the world by his word. The things we see were made out of things that cannot be seen.

Wow. Just... wow....

Darby

1Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen.

2For in [the power of] this the elders have obtained testimony.

3By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God, so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

Young's Literal

1And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

2for in this were the elders testified of;

3by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;

That word, Ages, just moved us from a translation with implication on the physics of the universe to a translation with implications centered fully on historical events. What the H E double Hockey Sticks?!

American Standard

1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

2 For therein the elders had witness borne to them.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear.

Passages taken from Bible Gateway

Lexicon

Concordence

[Crzyme]

I am not sure if this thread was started by a person just looking to stir the pot or a lost soul who is likely to never find their way, but I love how the topic turned to silliness and boobies

[Dan56]

Wish I knew so I could offer it to others. The best I can do so far is eliminate the ones that don't hold up to close scrutiny, and what I have found is that I now understand why so many who once believed so deeply now label themselves as agnostics.

God should be held acountable for every religion and denomination that exists and the crimes done under those divisions if he/she/it is Omniscient. Clearly he should have made his Word and his will nore clearly understandable so that all the different interpretations did not exist. Having foreknowledge of the effects of the confusuion His Word would cause and the horrific results it would create, he didn't change the Word itself or the level of our ability to comprehend it correctly. He clearly can not stand guilt free of the problem that exists. Many have spent entire lifetimes seeking in various belief systems.

From a Christian prospective, the bible can be held-up to close scrutiny. The bible can also be misconstrued and misinterpreted, and there's no doubt that some translations have taken some liberties in manipulating the manuscripts. Satan himself has twisted the Word from the beginning. But God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33). Jesus was the Word, and he brought clarification to what the traditions of men (Pharisees) had distorted.

God will respond to religions and denominations that change, add, or subtract from His Word to suit themselves. We are accountable to God, he is not accountable to us. To blame God for our confusion is nonsense, it isn't His Word that causes problems, but rather our reluctance to adhere to his simple Truth. Perhaps people should avoid 'belief systems' (religion), most of it is confusion run amuck.

Hebrews 11 does give a good definition, and it's the one I'm using. Faith in Hebrews chapter 11 is belief in what is seen with ones spiritual eyes and ears, the Truth that is written in the heart, and is born not out of blind faith to what is written in a book or what someone else tells you is true but out of direct spiritual interaction and this is evidenced in every single example used in the chapter to illustrate that little description of faith at the top of the chapter.

I completely agree with this.

That word, Ages, just moved us from a translation with implication on the physics of the universe to a translation with implications centered fully on historical events. What the H E double Hockey Sticks?

Actually, the margin of the King James also denotes 'worlds' as 'ages'. So the Young's and KJV concur that Hebrews 11:3 is likely better translated as 'ages'. I personally think its referring to one world, but different dispensations of time, thus multiple world ages (Genesis 1:2).

[Tsukino_Rei]

From a Christian prospective, the bible can be held-up to close scrutiny. The bible can also be misconstrued and misinterpreted, and there's no doubt that some translations have taken some liberties in manipulating the manuscripts. Satan himself has twisted the Word from the beginning. But God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33). Jesus was the Word, and he brought clarification to what the traditions of men (Pharisees) had distorted.

God will respond to religions and denominations that change, add, or subtract from His Word to suit themselves. We are accountable to God, he is not accountable to us. To blame God for our confusion is nonsense, it isn't His Word that causes problems, but rather our reluctance to adhere to his simple Truth. Perhaps people should avoid 'belief systems' (religion), most of it is confusion run amuck.

I completely agree with this.

Actually, the margin of the King James also denotes 'worlds' as 'ages'. So the Young's and KJV concur that Hebrews 11:3 is likely better translated as 'ages'. I personally think its referring to one world, but different dispensations of time, thus multiple world ages (Genesis 1:2).

Nifty! I agree regarding the reference to one world but different dispensations of time. It's also feasible that it connotates multiple dimentions within our single world which would defacto include time/ages.

I think belief systems can contain useful tools so long as one does not become totally dependent upon one or become dogmatic.

[mark 45]

as long as this thread has taken a turn concerning faith,then the devils dictonary.com had a definition for it:

"belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge of things without parallel".

in truth,all of us have a belief,or lack there of,and some hold to this belief based on their faith in it.it doesn't make them right,or wrong.it's correct for them.

as this thread started with the misguided"faith" of one who has his(?)beliefs,which are correct for him,trying to force them on someone else,i would as many have disagree with him.

Edited May 19, 2010 by mark 45

[RevRainbow]

Hebrews 11 does give a good definition, and it's the one I'm using. Faith in Hebrews chapter 11 is belief in what is seen with ones spiritual eyes and ears, the Truth that is written in the heart, and is born not out of blind faith to what is written in a book or what someone else tells you is true but out of direct spiritual interaction and this is evidenced in every single example used in the chapter to illustrate that little description of faith at the top of the chapter.

(et al)...

Thanks for taking the time in posting this. It's appreciated.

[Fawzo]

To blame God for our confusion is nonsense, it isn't His Word that causes problems, but rather our reluctance to adhere to his simple Truth.

Who is to blame for our confusion then. Who created the confused entity.

Simple single cell organisms have no problem finding what they are looking for unless another molecule comes in which replicates the Truth or food it is looking for. Who created the pretenders?

What is this "simple truth" to which you speak that all of mankind in every culture must adhere to, that God has clearly communicated to every individual so that there is no doubt?

In a human classroom a teacher can not be fully blamed for the inability of the students to learn, unless he created the students, as the students creator it is no longer nonsense to blame him for their inability to learn, but the simple truth.

In the Christian scenario this lack luster teacher not only knows he has failed at communicating this message clearly, but then with foreknowledge of the situation gets angry and punishes the students for his own failures with eternal detention.

[Dan56]

Who is to blame for our confusion then. Who created the confused entity.

Disobedience is not confusion, its rebellion. Confusion comes when we decide to separate ourselves from God. When we reject the truth and believe a lie, we are responsible for the result, which is confusion and death. Was Eve created confused, or did she freely choose to believe a lie?

Simple single cell organisms have no problem finding what they are looking for unless another molecule comes in which replicates the Truth or food it is looking for. Who created the pretenders?

Cells don't have free will. We were created to be tested, you can't test a person by removing choice.

What is this "simple truth" to which you speak that all of mankind in every culture must adhere to, that God has clearly communicated to every individual so that there is no doubt?

I'm referring to Jesus of course.. He said, "I am the truth" (John 14:6).

In the Christian scenario this lack luster teacher not only knows he has failed at communicating this message clearly, but then with foreknowledge of the situation gets angry and punishes the students for his own failures with eternal detention.

Nothing in the bible suggest that God sends unknowing people into eternal damnation. The millennium is specifically assigned for those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel (Revelation 20). A teacher is not lack-luster because a student refuses to listen.

[Fawzo]

When we reject the truth and believe a lie, we are responsible for the result, which is confusion and death.

Once again death existed for billions of year before the story of Adam and Eve was conjured up. Without death there would be no life. If stars didn't die the elements that make up your being would not exist. The precursor for the Biblical story in the Garden of Eden can be found in the Babylonian creation myth entitled the Enuma Elish. It predates the Biblical story by about 400 years.

Billions have never heard your truth to be able to reject it and to many of those who have in other cultures it is as nonsensical as their belief systems seem to you. Now think about why your belief system seems like nonsense to people in other cultures. God could have made the truth clear to everyone without a chance of doubt by having it written in flaming purple letters suspended in air all over the planet if he so chose.

Was Eve created confused, or did she freely choose to believe a lie?

Without the knowledge of God and Evil how would she know what a lie was? If one isn't cognizant of what good and evil is and no one has ever lied to you before, how does one know what a lie is or that beings are even capable of the act.

Cells don't have free will. We were created to be tested, you can't test a person by removing choice.

An Omniscient being has no need to test anyone or anything ever. All knowledge is His. Love does not test, fear does!!

Love accepts and has compassion for all. Fear tests and punishes.

I'm referring to Jesus of course.. He said, "I am the truth" (John 14:6).

No that is what someone from the Johannine Community wrote that Jesus stated. The writer of the Gospel of John is the least credible witness in the Bible. Do we need to go over all the contradictions within the Gospel of John again and again.

Nothing in the bible suggest that God sends unknowing people into eternal damnation. The millennium is specifically assigned for those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel (Revelation 20). A teacher is not lack-luster because a student refuses to listen.

Once again you are trying to compare a human teacher without any part in the creation of his students, to someone who creates every student one quantum packet at a time from scratch.

We are basically bio-computers. If you create and program such a system and that system does not recognize your password so you can log onto it. Who is to blame? No one else but the creator himself. The case is closed.

If you create the bio-system so that they can reprogram themselves, aren't you still responsible for the fact that the system does not recognize you? Who gave it that ability, and if you gave it that ability not knowing the fact that it would happen one day,your very dimwitted and no where near Omniscient!!!

Edited May 19, 2010 by Fawzo