Liberal Christianity 2

[Dan56]

Just keep repeating the end of that sentence to yourself all week and think about it "the law requires blood" "the law requires blood" soon within your heart you'll come to recognize how absurd and barbaric that sounds to modern man and maybe even come to realize that this was the mindset and reality of late Bronze Age and early Iron Age man and the kind of mindest that Jesus actually came to rid the world of.

Hey, I didn't write the law "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). Modern man still requires blood (death) for breaking the 6th commandment. But you are correct, Jesus shed the blood required by law.

Do you understand now?

Not really The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and since most liberal Christians don't literally accept Christ as deity, I still don't fully comprehend what 'spirit' their faith is based on? If a person does not believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh, or that he resurrected from the grave, than it seems illogical to have faith in his Holy Spirit? Does that make sense?

[RabbiO]

By Dan's definition of Christianity I am not a Christian. I'm fine with that. I would not care to be a Christian under Dan's definition.

I am a Christian under my definition.

I'm beginning to see a pattern.

I am not a Christian by Dan's definition.

I am not a Christian by your definition.

I am not a Christian by my definition.

The evidence seems undeniable. I am not a Christian.

I knew there was a reason I didn't feel funny chanting Hebrew brachot (blessings) over candles, challah and wine on Friday nights.

I knew I could figure this out if I worked through it logically.

(This concludes the attempt at a humorous interlude in these proceedings. We join the attempt at serious discussion already in progress.)

[Tsukino_Rei]

Hey, I didn't write the law "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). Modern man still requires blood (death) for breaking the 6th commandment. But you are correct, Jesus shed the blood required by law.

Not really The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and since most liberal Christians don't literally accept Christ as deity, I still don't fully comprehend what 'spirit' their faith is based on? If a person does not believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh, or that he resurrected from the grave, than it seems illogical to have faith in his Holy Spirit? Does that make sense?

Do you realize that if the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ then Jesus impregnated his own mother?

[Kingfisher]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and since most liberal Christians don't literally accept Christ as deity, I still don't fully comprehend what 'spirit' their faith is based on? If a person does not believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh, or that he resurrected from the grave, than it seems illogical to have faith in his Holy Spirit? Does that make sense?

Sort of, the Catholic Church just lumps them all into a split/unified Trinity. Taking Jesus' divinity out still leaves room to believe in the Holy Spirit of God. I'd hardly say that "most" liberal Christians deny the divinity of Jesus, but it is one aspect.

Let me adjust your statement to reflect this. (replaced physical evidence)

"If the bible is spiritually inspired, then its truths would not likely be revealed by the words themselves, but through spiritual revelation via the Holy Spirit."

Of course, literal inerrancy is just another facet that may or may not define a liberal Christian. I'd probably boil the schism down by saying that, no matter what tenets they adhere to, a conservative Christian believes there is only one way to interpret the Bible, where liberals acknowledge (or affirm) that there may be more than one. I dug up a non-partisan analysis that may help.

Here’s to the idea that we’ll all eventually end up in exactly the same place.

“A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism, and recognizes that an organism at war with itself, is doomed. We are one planet.” - Carl Sagan

[Tsukino_Rei]

I'm beginning to see a pattern.

I am not a Christian by Dan's definition.

I am not a Christian by your definition.

I am not a Christian by my definition.

The evidence seems undeniable. I am not a Christian.

I knew there was a reason I didn't feel funny chanting Hebrew brachot (blessings) over candles, challah and wine on Friday nights.

I knew I could figure this out if I worked through it logically.

(This concludes the attempt at a humorous interlude in these proceedings. We join the attempt at serious discussion already in progress.)

I suspect you might be jewish. I'm meeting my friend at Synagogue tommorrow.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[Pete]

Hey, I didn't write the law "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). Modern man still requires blood (death) for breaking the 6th commandment. But you are correct, Jesus shed the blood required by law.

Not really The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and since most liberal Christians don't literally accept Christ as deity, I still don't fully comprehend what 'spirit' their faith is based on? If a person does not believe that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh, or that he resurrected from the grave, than it seems illogical to have faith in his Holy Spirit? Does that make sense?

Not really Dan..

Its like this. The Holy Spirit is God. God can live within people as the Holy Spirit and as the bible says God is Spirit. Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and in being so was God and Man. God only because the Holy spirit resided within him.

The Spirit of love is what Jesus died for and as such he is indeed a sacrifice to the spirit of love and a shining light to those who follow. For me it is inconsequential whether he was resurrected in the flesh or spirit or indeed at all..

Some suspect that Jesus died on the cross and some feel he was spared death (If you read John you will note that the body was treated with Myrrh and Aloes. The Gospel says it was to embalm the body but there was no tradition of Jewish embalming. Myrrh is used to stop bleeding (dead bodies do not bleed) and aloes are used to quicken the heart and to revive someone) and of course some feel he was resurrected.

I personally do not know what really happened. All I can say is I believe in that same Spirit of love (that we believe God to be) that Jesus died for.

One does not have to believe every word of the bible to believe in Jesus or what he stood for or admire him. Even if Jesus was just an imaginary avatar, his story can still be life changing.

I'm beginning to see a pattern.

I am not a Christian by Dan's definition.

I am not a Christian by your definition.

I am not a Christian by my definition.

The evidence seems undeniable. I am not a Christian.

I knew there was a reason I didn't feel funny chanting Hebrew brachot (blessings) over candles, challah and wine on Friday nights.

I knew I could figure this out if I worked through it logically.

(This concludes the attempt at a humorous interlude in these proceedings. We join the attempt at serious discussion already in progress.)

As Spong put it. You maybe Jewish, Christian or Muslim but God is niether. We all have a place in God's love.

[Kingfisher]

Now let us contemplate the Mystery of Faith.

From liberal Christianity it's only a short hop to Universalism. Once you look past your own version at God, you wonder if all religions offer the same Spiritual revelations, if you just read between the lines. This is naturally more evidence for the conservative Christians (or conservative anyone) to oppose liberalism. Anything that leads away from the Word, right? Well, here's the Truth as I've seen it in my life.

I was raised Roman Catholic from birth.. baptism, Sunday school, endless aching Mass, the whole nine. I believed I was Christian, faithfully recited the Nicene Creed on my rosary, and the Church confirmed me a True Christian. When I lost faith, I was a misguided but hopefully salvageable Christian. The Methodists said this crisis of faith was OK, I was still a Christian as long as I behaved according to the Word. God loves me. My faith doesn't matter.

However, I shouldn't forget that while I was raised Catholic by my Mother; my Father, and his Father, and his Fathers Fathers' back through history... were all Hebrew. I had a couple Jewish friends as a child, but the heritage and culture were not yet a part of my life (thanks, Abba!) If Jesus was not Christ, then even if I walked in the Word, or believed in Christ with all my soul, I could not literally be called a Christian. I was still a Jew, albeit one who was lost in the desert. The Word is in my heart and blood. My faith doesn't matter.

Later, after much sorrow, I denied God and chose Atheism. Zen Buddhism was a natural fit. The teachings were wise, and led me out of the pain. There is divinity in us all and everything around us, and the existence of God doesn't matter. My faith doesn't matter.

My Science tells me the existence of God is unknown, and perhaps unknowable. I must choose my way with what information I have available to me now. The more information I have, the better I'll be able to respond to the world around me, but my faith doesn't matter.

If Christ is King, then I am a Christian. If He was not God's Son, I am a Jew. If Allah has accepted my Shahadah, I am a Muslim. If there is no God, I am a Buddha. I cannot change those things, but the Truth of them changes what I am called. The Word was written by God. None can change It but God. My faith doesn't matter.

If I believe that my way is the only way, some say my soul will burn. If I believe that my way is not the only way, some say my soul will burn. No matter my choice I am arrogantly damned by some men or others, though none have power over my soul. Of course, there is no such thing as the Inquisition, and speaking against that truth will have me branded a heretic by the Inquisition. Therefore, I reject the logical snares. I defeat them not with logic, but burn them away with the fire of Passion. I love them ALL with ALL my heart, and only GOD can judge the Truth of what is in MY heart. Only God has the authority to dictate my course or command the rules I must follow. The fate of my Soul is a Great Mystery, and only the Creator can determine if my actions will destroy me or save me. My faith doesn't matter.

So, now I am here, testifying that I am who I am. It was created of Faith between I and I, and remains there. You can view me through whatever lens you wish, and your perspective will not change that. You can label me whatever you want, but you can not change that. Your faith does not matter.

It's Her Faith in Us ALL that matters.

With respect, yo.

Love,

~US~

P.S. Now do you understand?

[Pete]

Now let us contemplate the Mystery of Faith.

From liberal Christianity it's only a short hop to Universalism. Once you look past your own version at God, you wonder if all religions offer the same Spiritual revelations, if you just read between the lines. This is naturally more evidence for the conservative Christians (or conservative anyone) to oppose liberalism. Anything that leads away from the Word, right? Well, here's the Truth as I've seen it in my life.

I was raised Roman Catholic from birth.. baptism, Sunday school, endless aching Mass, the whole nine. I believed I was Christian, faithfully recited the Nicene Creed on my rosary, and the Church confirmed me a True Christian. When I lost faith, I was a misguided but hopefully salvageable Christian. The Methodists said this crisis of faith was OK, I was still a Christian as long as I behaved according to the Word. God loves me. My faith doesn't matter.

However, I shouldn't forget that while I was raised Catholic by my Mother; my Father, and his Father, and his Fathers Fathers' back through history... were all Hebrew. I had a couple Jewish friends as a child, but the heritage and culture were not yet a part of my life (thanks, Abba!) If Jesus was not Christ, then even if I walked in the Word, or believed in Christ with all my soul, I could not literally be called a Christian. I was still a Jew, albeit one who was lost in the desert. The Word is in my heart and blood. My faith doesn't matter.

Later, after much sorrow, I denied God and chose Atheism. Zen Buddhism was a natural fit. The teachings were wise, and led me out of the pain. There is divinity in us all and everything around us, and the existence of God doesn't matter. My faith doesn't matter.

My Science tells me the existence of God is unknown, and perhaps unknowable. I must choose my way with what information I have available to me now. The more information I have, the better I'll be able to respond to the world around me, but my faith doesn't matter.

If Christ is King, then I am a Christian. If He was not God's Son, I am a Jew. If Allah has accepted my Shahadah, I am a Muslim. If there is no God, I am a Buddha. I cannot change those things, but the Truth of them changes what I am called. The Word was written by God. None can change It but God. My faith doesn't matter.

If I believe that my way is the only way, some say my soul will burn. If I believe that my way is not the only way, some say my soul will burn. No matter my choice I am arrogantly damned by some men or others, though none have power over my soul. Of course, there is no such thing as the Inquisition, and speaking against that truth will have me branded a heretic by the Inquisition. Therefore, I reject the logical snares. I defeat them not with logic, but burn them away with the fire of Passion. I love them ALL with ALL my heart, and only GOD can judge the Truth of what is in MY heart. Only God has the authority to dictate my course or command the rules I must follow. The fate of my Soul is a Great Mystery, and only the Creator can determine if my actions will destroy me or save me. My faith doesn't matter.

So, now I am here, testifying that I am who I am. It was created of Faith between I and I, and remains there. You can view me through whatever lens you wish, and your perspective will not change that. You can label me whatever you want, but you can not change that. Your faith does not matter.

It's Her Faith in Us ALL that matters.

With respect, yo.

Love,

~US~

P.S. Now do you understand?

Makes a lot of senses to me Kingfisher.

I have had my journey through Atheism, Agnosticism, Evangelical Christian, to my present belief in Liberal Christianity. I am told God is love. I am also aware that not one of these belief groups can declare that they have the monopoly on love. I am therefore drawn to the position that loving is not about signing up to any creed or belief but being true to yourself and your own personal journey and the earnestly seeking of that which is love, whether in spirit, faith, or path..

[Dan56]

I'd probably boil the schism down by saying that, no matter what tenets they adhere to, a conservative Christian believes there is only one way to interpret the Bible, where liberals acknowledge (or affirm) that there may be more than one. I dug up a non-partisan analysis that may help.

Here’s to the idea that we’ll all eventually end up in exactly the same place.

Thanks for the link, it pretty much explains the differences. I don't think that conservative Christians believe that there's only one way to interpret the bible, but only that the bible is true and inspired by God.

Not really Dan..

Its like this. The Holy Spirit is God. God can live within people as the Holy Spirit and as the bible says God is Spirit. Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and in being so was God and Man. God only because the Holy spirit resided within him.

The Spirit of love is what Jesus died for and as such he is indeed a sacrifice to the spirit of love and a shining light to those who follow. For me it is inconsequential whether he was resurrected in the flesh or spirit or indeed at all..

Some suspect that Jesus died on the cross and some feel he was spared death (If you read John you will note that the body was treated with Myrrh and Aloes. The Gospel says it was to embalm the body but there was no tradition of Jewish embalming. Myrrh is used to stop bleeding (dead bodies do not bleed) and aloes are used to quicken the heart and to revive someone) and of course some feel he was resurrected.

I personally do not know what really happened. All I can say is I believe in that same Spirit of love (that we believe God to be) that Jesus died for.

One does not have to believe every word of the bible to believe in Jesus or what he stood for or admire him. Even if Jesus was just an imaginary avatar, his story can still be life changing.

I understand what your saying, I disagree, but understand where your coming from. It should be of consequence whether Jesus resurrected, because if he didn't, then neither will we. I also don't share your belief that Jesus died for "the spirit of love". His sacrifice was because he loves us, but he died for the remission of sin. Maybe I'm straining at gnats, but it seems so much easier to just believe what it says rather than to speculate about what may have happened.

[Pete]

Thanks for the link, it pretty much explains the differences. I don't think that conservative Christians believe that there's only one way to interpret the bible, but only that the bible is true and inspired by God.

I understand what your saying, I disagree, but understand where your coming from. It should be of consequence whether Jesus resurrected, because if he didn't, then neither will we. I also don't share your belief that Jesus died for "the spirit of love". His sacrifice was because he loves us, but he died for the remission of sin. Maybe I'm straining at gnats, but it seems so much easier to just believe what it says rather than to speculate about what may have happened.

I think the qualifier here is - it seems easier for you but not for me. We are asked to believe that a man flogged till his skin laid open, crippled with the weight of the cross as he walked to his death and then hanging from his very flesh with lungs filling up with fluid and grasping at every breath, is having conversations with all and quoting psalms. This not to mention the later confusing accounts of the resurrection.

I personally do not buy into the belief that God wanted such an evil death, just to please himself that his so called brutal laws did not go down well. Jesus was rebellious and challenged a number of scriptural laws because they did not fit with his view of love. I believe he did die for love of people. He could have easily lived a quiet and peaceful life and avoided the whole affair. I believe it is in this we see the true love of Jesus.

However, I recognise that you will see it differently...

Edited April 24, 2010 by Pete

[Dan56]

I personally do not buy into the belief that God wanted such an evil death, just to please himself that his so called brutal laws did not go down well. Jesus was rebellious and challenged a number of scriptural laws because they did not fit with his view of love. I believe he did die for love of people.

However, I recognise that you will see it differently...

I do agree that Jesus did die for his love for people; "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son". A sacrifice is to forfeit one thing for another, and Jesus forfeited his life that we might live. Jesus did not rebel against the law, he was the law. He did not challenge the law, he explained the meaning and clarified the intent of the law. We are no longer held in bondage to the law, but freed by Grace and led by the Spirit of Truth. So for me, the cross was not representative of an evil death, but a righteous death.

[Pete]

I do agree that Jesus did die for his love for people; "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son". A sacrifice is to forfeit one thing for another, and Jesus forfeited his life that we might live. Jesus did not rebel against the law, he was the law. He did not challenge the law, he explained the meaning and clarified the intent of the law. We are no longer held in bondage to the law, but freed by Grace and led by the Spirit of Truth. So for me, the cross was not representative of an evil death, but a righteous death.

Dan you keep repeating verses as if they have meaning for me but they do not. It still comes down to your interpretation being that God created an evil set of laws (IMO) but then wanted someone to die a cruel death just to appease his judgmental and harsh nature. This is not good news for me but the chants of a tyrannical bully (something I do not believe God is).

Plus Jesus and the law:-

The law says:-

Leviticus 11:7-8

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.

Deuteronomy 14:8

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase

Yet, Jesus preached:-

Matthew 15:11

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mark 7:18-20

"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.'

------------------------------------

Leviticus 10:9

Do not drink wine nor strong drink.

John 2:7-9 & Mark 14:25

Jesus not only drank wine he created it for others to drink.

-----------------------------------------

Exodus <a href="http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/2435/eVerseID/2435" target="_parent">31:14

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Mark 2:27

Jesus was a Jew but laboured on the sabbath.

"Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath".

------------------------------------------

and on you other point about Jesus being the law:-

The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation

Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6

The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation

Matt 5:17-19

See also :- http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

However, that said the bible does say:-

Matt 22:37 -40

"37 Jesus replied, " `You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 A second is equally important: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

40 All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.""

Which is something I am happy to accept, but partly because it undermines much of the evils of the OT law that asks us to kill people.

[Dan56]

Dan you keep repeating verses as if they have meaning for me but they do not. It still comes down to your interpretation being that God created an evil set of laws (IMO) but then wanted someone to die a cruel death just to appease his judgmental and harsh nature. This is not good news for me but the chants of a tyrannical bully (something I do not believe God is).]

I don't agree with the interpretation of some of the examples you cited (surprise!). Jesus was not announcing that all foods are clean, food wasn't even the subject. “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders, These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man" (Matthew 15:18-20). I know the NIV margin says "Jesus declared all foods clean", but Jesus was addressing the Pharisees tradition of hand washing, not their diet. Mark 7:19 Explained

Leviticus 10:9 does say; "Do not drink wine nor strong drink" but continues with "when ye go into the tabernacle". This was told to Aaron (priest), couldn't have drunks staggering around in the tabernacle! "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (1 Timothy 5:23).

The Lord of the Sabbath, knew what the Sabbath law meant. Jesus pointed out that "spiritual services" were not a violation of Sabbath law. The Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel, the New Covenant no longer requires resting on the seventh day, Christ became our Sabbath (Hebrews 4:9-11).

I don't consider that God made an evil set of laws, but that His laws are righteous. "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him"(John 14:21). The verse may have no meaning to you, but I don't interpret or consider it as the chants of a tyrannical bully.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Dan54

[Pete]

I don't consider that God made an evil set of laws, but that His laws are righteous. "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him"(John 14:21). The verse may have no meaning to you, but I don't interpret or consider it as the chants of a tyrannical bully.

So God had nothing to do with the following?:-

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 (New International Version)

⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. ⁹ You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. ¹⁰ Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. ¹¹ Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

Leviticus 25:44-46 (New International Version - UK)

⁴⁴ 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

⁴⁶ You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Leviticus 15:19-24 (New International Version - UK)

¹⁹ 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

²⁰ 'Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean.

²¹ Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

²² Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.

²³ Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening.

²⁴ 'If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.

Exodus 35:2 (New International Version - UK)

² For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Exodus 22:18 (New International Version)

¹⁸ "Do not allow a sorceress to live.

Deuteronomy 17:12 (New International Version)

¹²The man who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the LORD your God must be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel.

Leviticus 20 (New International Version)

⁹ " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

¹⁰ " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

¹³ " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

²⁷ " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

Exodus 21:15 (New International Version)

¹⁵ "Anyone who attacks ^[a] his father or his mother must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 (New International Version) (must be a virgin at her wedding)

²⁰ If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, ²¹ she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Leviticus 21:9 (New International Version)

⁹ " 'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

Deuteronomy 25 (New International Version)

⁵ If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. ⁶ The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

⁷ However, if a man does not want to marry his brother's wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, "My husband's brother refuses to carry on his brother's name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me." ⁸ Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, "I do not want to marry her," ⁹ his brother's widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, "This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother's family line." ¹⁰ That man's line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled.

¹¹ If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, ¹²you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

I could go on....

Edited April 26, 2010 by Pete

[Dan56]

So God had nothing to do with the following?:-

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 (New International Version)

⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. ⁹ You must certainly put him to death.

This is the first commandment; "Thou shalt have none other god's before me".... Greatest commandment; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind." I don't have a problem with this law or the punishment.

Leviticus 25:44-46 (New International Version - UK)

⁴⁴ 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

⁴⁶ You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Leviticus 15:19-24 (New International Version - UK)

Slavery in the Bible was based on crime and debt, not skin color, the distinction is significant. People go to prison for committing a crime today, and are bound to the state, but there were no prisons back then. With no bank loans, and no unemployment benefits, debt was repaid via indentured servitude. Things like crime, debt, war reparations, and restitution were valid reasons for justified bond-service. Kidnapping and stealing men to own or sell them as slaves was emphatically condemned in the Bible. "And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death"(Exodus 21:16). In the New Testament, it was a lot more of a firm employer/employee relationship, but in a bit more of an indentured way, generally because a debt was owed by the person or family.

¹⁰ " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

This is the 7th commandment, nothing controversial about it imo. I'm guessing your objection is with the punishment and not the rule?

I could go on....

I don't have the energy to comment on all of these laws, but suffice to say that God governed the Israelites to establish law and order, and define crime and punishment. His laws covered food, agriculture, cleanliness, etc. All the laws, statutes, and ordinances of the old covenant were applicable at that time. Those who did not live by the law, died by the law. Today, we are no longer condemned by the law thanks to Jesus, so I fail to understand why you detest the commandments.

[Kingfisher]

if your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death.

This is the first commandment; "Thou shalt have none other god's before me"....

Yes yes, murdering people for having different beliefs is a great idea. Always smart to put it at the top of the list. Oh, I like that.. putting it in the form of a direct order is a nice touch. That means we get to take this literally too, right? Woohoo!! There will be blood!!!

Don't worry, once you get comfortable with killing your own family the rest of 'em will be a piece of cake.

This is the 7th commandment, nothing controversial about it imo.

Hmm, tell that to King James. :lol:

"The cake is a lie"

Edited April 27, 2010 by Kingfisher

[Pete]

This is the first commandment; "Thou shalt have none other god's before me".... Greatest commandment; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind." I don't have a problem with this law or the punishment.

Well it is nice to know that from your loving heart that you think that all who disagree with you should be killed and you agree with people killing them. Does not the love and wonderfulness of the many members here from all persuasions touch your emotions even a little?

I would have thought that if you really loved people then you would of a the very least not want them to be killed by anyone and would see it as a great evil.

From my perspective, I would say that anything less, would mean ones love for others was really a lie..

[Fawzo]

This is the first commandment; "Thou shalt have none other god's before me".... Greatest commandment; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind." I don't have a problem with this law or the punishment.

Which tells me that you have never experienced the agape love of God. You might have been told about it, read about it and even believe in it, but to make that statement tells me that you have never directly experienced it while you are focused in this physical reality.

I personally don't think any sane pesron who has experienced God's Agape love could make that statement!

[RevRainbow]

"Love me or die!?" That dont make sense. One does not love someone - even a god - out of fear. I might obey out of fear, but I could not - would not - love.

[Dan56]

Yes yes, murdering people for having different beliefs is a great idea. Always smart to put it at the top of the list. Oh, I like that.. putting it in the form of a direct order is a nice touch. That means we get to take this literally too, right? Woohoo!! There will be blood!!!

What can I say, God hates idolatry.

Well it is nice to know that from your loving heart that you think that all who disagree with you should be killed and you agree with people killing them. Does not the love and wonderfulness of the many members here from all persuasions touch your emotions even a little?

I would have thought that if you really loved people then you would of a the very least not want them to be killed by anyone and would see it as a great evil.

From my perspective, I would say that anything less, would mean ones love for others was really a lie..

Where did I insinuate that anyone who disagree's with me should be killed? That's absurd. Death was the penalty for breaking the first commandment in the old testament. Its biblical, so of course I agree with it. Do I want people to be killed? Of course not, and neither does God.

Which tells me that you have never experienced the agape love of God. You might have been told about it, read about it and even believe in it, but to make that statement tells me that you have never directly experienced it while you are focused in this physical reality.

I personally don't think any sane pesron who has experienced God's Agape love could make that statement!

I didn't make that statement, God did. My agreeing with God's judgment means that I've never experienced his love?? I've been unable to find any verses to substantiate your observation? "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the Commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Love is a 2-way street, the person who says that they know God but doesn't keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). Odds are that if your worshiping a false God, you don't have much love for the real deal.

"Love me or die!?" That dont make sense. One does not love someone - even a god - out of fear. I might obey out of fear, but I could not - would not - love.

I think your putting words in my mouth. What I said was biblical, and "Love me or die" wasn't in my post. As you know, God in his love and grace offers us salvation from sin and death. Our response to God determines whether we will spend eternity in heaven or in hell. Jesus said; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15). I completely agree that its a service of love and not fear.